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#1
Heeellloooooo guitar players all over the world I have a simple question with a probably very simple answer too. I think.

Okay,so as some of you might remember I'm the dude posting my first couple of posts a while back in this thread asking a bunch of questions I really should've researched on my own before hand,to stop wasting your precious time Though this is a question I think I know the answer too but yet I can't confront myself with the answer,even though I vaguely know it. Does that even make sense? xD

Okay,onward to the question. For the most part as a beginner I've learnt my C major scale,I've learnt my Cmajor chords. Sus2 and Sus4 variants. I've learnt the C major in "open position" and in the "first position"....blahhh.....positions,positions and more positions everywhere.

Are these "positions" pre-determined? Are these "positions" something that just IS? Or are these "positions" just a bunch of "positions" the random guitar teacher/dude on youtube made up themselves and call them positions?

I mean,some call that position number 1,someone call that same position number 2. Can I make my own position? Or are these positions pre-determined by the intervals in the scale?

Or wait,no....the interval between a C note on the A string 3rd fret and the D note on the b string 3rd fret the same as the interval between a C note on the E string 8th fret and the D note on the E string 10th fret? It do sound the same unless I'm completely tone-deaf?

So in that regard,if the positions that all these youtube guys throw at us ain't the answer....then I can make up my own positions? See,I thought at first that the 1st position of the Cmajor scale would start off at C,E string 8th fret and the 2nd position would then start on the D,aka the 2nd DEGREE of the major scale. Hence the name "position 2"...so I played the 2nd position as i thought how it was. D E F G A B C D...
E string- 10 12
A string- 8 10 12
D string- 9 10 12 Completing the 1st octave at 12
G string- 9 10 12 Starting the 2nd octave at 9
B string- 10 12
e string- 8 10 Completing the 2nd octave at 10

Or is positions ultimately just what they say it is,a bunch of notes from a scale sorted into nice,neat little (majorilyrestrainingfreethinking) positions?

I'm lost at positions,I feel like it ****s up my entire life. ****ing positions. But what I've been thinking all along is (kind of)...a scale is a scale no matter where it finds itself on the fretboard as long as it contains the notes of said scale and are used in said context?

If this is true,I feel pissed at "teachers" teaching away these ****ing scale positions as the absolute truth and like it was the very first fundamental laws of the universe.

/Partly ranting off.

Now,what is it? :=)

Cheers,frustrated newbie from Norway.
#2
Well, if you play the notes of C major in any spot (position) on the fretboard, it will be a C major scale.

When it comes to naming positions, I did notice that there were some slight differences in naming. You can figure out a fingering for a C major scale at the third fret (where the C note is based off the 3rd fret of the A string).

I personally thing that you shouldn't worry what other people refer to as shapes on the neck. As long as you can find the notes of a particular scale in any position of the neck, you'll be good

TL;DR: You're thinking is right. You can play a C major scale anywhere on the neck, and it'll still be a C major scale in that situation.
Skip the username, call me Billy
#3
Cool,and I*m not going to start a discussion about modes now but I just want one short,simple answer.

They say that the different modes of say a major scale uses the same notes. So if we use my example above where I played the "2nd position" of the Cmajor scale...that wasn't a D dorian mode? was it? Because if that would've been a D dorian mode you would have to ALTER the notes,either sharpening or flattening certain degrees,right? It just sounds sometimes that if a dude says "oh this and this mode uses the same notes as the major scale" it sounds like what you've been playing all this time were actually modes as well...but there is a slight catch in that you have to ALTER those same/some notes/degrees by a bit?
#4
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Cool,and I*m not going to start a discussion about modes now but I just want one short,simple answer.

They say that the different modes of say a major scale uses the same notes. So if we use my example above where I played the "2nd position" of the Cmajor scale...that wasn't a D dorian mode? was it? Because if that would've been a D dorian mode you would have to ALTER the notes,either sharpening or flattening certain degrees,right? It just sounds sometimes that if a dude says "oh this and this mode uses the same notes as the major scale" it sounds like what you've been playing all this time were actually modes as well...but there is a slight catch in that you have to ALTER those same/some notes/degrees by a bit?


You say you don't want to start a discussion about modes and then go into talking about Dorian mode.

No, in D Dorian, you keep the notes of C major but start on D instead of C. The tonal center is D.
#5
So you don't flatten or sharpen any degrees at all to go from C major to D dorian? So basically what I referred to as "2nd position" is actually D dorian? WTF. FML.
#6
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
So you don't flatten or sharpen any degrees at all to go from C major to D dorian? So basically what I referred to as "2nd position" is actually D dorian? WTF. FML.


brah ima do you a solid and say don't worry about modes for now or how they work.

srsly.
ayy lmao
#7
Yeah,I think I'll have too seriously follow up on this advice ^ lol....Thanks for the replies though,especially @aerosmithfan95 for clearing up my mind on this. Boxes are frustrating and limiting!
#8
You were right in your first post. If you're playing the C major scale starting on D it's still the C major scale.

C Dorian is found by taking that same scale, and flattening the E and the B.

So you get: C D Eb F G A Bb

D Dorian is a totally unrelated scale that happens to share the same notes as C Major.
#9
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
They say that the different modes of say a major scale uses the same notes. So if we use my example above where I played the "2nd position" of the Cmajor scale...that wasn't a D dorian mode?.....


Ok so you know how "god" and "dog" have the same letters? And they are both words and nouns? But they aren't the same.

That's the route you're going down here. Do you say "god as the reverse lettering of dog"? Do you think about "dog" when you are talking about "god"?

This is the same question you'll face when considering the relationship between the C major scale and D dorian. Think of them as separate entities and everything will make a lot more sense.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
So you don't flatten or sharpen any degrees at all to go from C major to D dorian? So basically what I referred to as "2nd position" is actually D dorian? WTF. FML.


This is hard because you're trying to think about thing academically, as letters on a page, as opposed to a series of functional relationships.

If you're in C major, you're in C major. It doesn't matter where you "Start" or "end" your scale runs. A while ago some people used to teach different positions on the neck with mode names, but luckily most people have realized this is confusing.

What do I mean by functional relationships?

I mean the tendency of notes to resolve. That is to say, if I'm in C major, C is "home." It SOUNDS LIKE home. One of the first things you need to learn is how to hear that. I can start on D, E, or any other note, but so long as C SOUNDS LIKE home, and I'm major, then I'm in C major.

In C major, B WANTS TO push up half a step to C. There is a clear relationship there. There are other clear relationships, too, but the "leading tone" B to C is one of the easiest to hear. Similarly, in C major, D WANTS TO resolve down to C.

In D Dorian, D is home. It doesn't want to go anywhere. Because D Dorian has a D as "home" and is minor, most musicians think of D Dorian as a close relation on D minor - not of C major. This is because while it shares the same notes as C major, NONE of those notes in D Dorian serve the same function that they do in C major.

Meanwhile, of the 7 notes in D Dorian, six of them serve exactly the same functional as they do in D minor. A C note sounds the same in D Dorian and in D Minor ... completely different from how it sounds in C major.

You can not expect this stuff to make sense until you can HEAR the functionality. It probably feels like it's an abstract set of arbitrary rules. But it's not. Once you can hear it, it makes total sense.

Learn to hear functionally. It will change your world.

The best way to do so, in my experience (although others have tried other ways) is with the functional ear trainer, a free download from miles.be.
#11
Position refers to the placement of your index finger. Positions "just are" because those are the notes within reach when your index finger is at any particular place.

And don't worry about modes until you know all your chords.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jun 19, 2015,
#12
^This.

C major is C major regardless of the order as as far as you should be concerned right now modes don't exist in your world.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#13
Bro, you ain't ready for modes. Just get to understanding that sweet, sweet major scale. And then the minor scale. And don't sit there and focus a ton on boxes/positions; those are just there because most humans find it hard to stretch beyond 4 or 5 frets.
#14
If a guitar player says he's playing in a mode. He's most likely to be playing in a key with accidentals.

I can play Emin-Fmaj7#11 (For The Love Of God - Steve Vai) and play the scale of C major over it, just like Steve did. It will sound like phrygian but, in context, it isn't phrygian. Because it isn't just Emin-Fmaj7#11 throughout the whole song. If the whole song was Emin-Fmaj7#11, it would be modal (I believe, someone needs to confirm). But it changes progression within the song which implies tonality rather than modality. Isolating one single bit of a song would be modal. But for the sake of context, it's tonality. Modality doesn't sound resolved like tonality does. Modality is just a ''flow'' and doesn't really contain much tension and release.

I'd like to mention again that someone needs to confirm this.
#15
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian

...

I'm lost at positions,I feel like it ****s up my entire life. ****ing positions. But what I've been thinking all along is (kind of)...a scale is a scale no matter where it finds itself on the fretboard as long as it contains the notes of said scale and are used in said context?

If this is true,I feel pissed at "teachers" teaching away these ****ing scale positions as the absolute truth and like it was the very first fundamental laws of the universe.

frustrated newbie from Norway.


The short answer is that every single shape (chord, scale, interval) is 100% determined by the way the guitar is tuned.

For example, in standard tuning of a 6 string guitar, the 1st string is tightened or slackened until the sound of it, played unfretted (open), matches the sound created at the 5th fret of the 2nd string.

Think of the open string as fret 0 (the nut actually acts as a fret on your behalf, with the tuning peg acting like your finger).

So, fret 5 is 5 frets higher than the open string, which means its sound is 5 semitones higher that the sound of the open string. But, since you've tuned the 1st string to sound the same as that 5th fret on the second string, therefore you can use that straight line shape (vertically from the 2nd open string, to 1st open string) to also create the exact same sound 5 semitones apart.

Ditto anywhere along those 2 strings, if you play some fret on the 2nd string, and the SAME fret on the first string, you always create the sound of an "interval" of 5 semitones. As you slide this shape along the strings, you'll always get the same "kind" of sound that is made by an interval of 5 semitones, just higher or lower.

If you drop back by one fret on the 1st string (e.g. play 9th fret on 2nd string, and 8th fret on 1st string), you have now reduced the gap to 4 semitones. Drop back again (7th fret on 1st string), you now have 3 semitones. If you drop back from the 9th fret by 5 frets to fret 4 on the 1st string, you now have 0 semitones (identical notes)

In total, there are only really twelve different intervals ... but the wider ones are created by crossing more than one string. It probably takes 10 minutes a day (if that) to learn all of these in around a week. All of them just slide around like above.

Then you will recognise these in every single scale shape, and chord shape ... if you know the scale formula (what intervals are in the scale) then the interval shapes can help you remember or even work out the scale shape. Knowing the intervals lets you kinwo what notes to target (or use less).

For more detail, see http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/music_theory/drastically_cut_learning_time_with_intervals.html, and then follow through the lessons starting at http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_basics/drastically_reduce_learning_time_with_intervals_part_2.html.

I think these will help remove some of your worries ... the shapes are very logical.

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jun 20, 2015,
#16
Major, Dorian. This is easiest to explain visually.

1st diagram shows G major rooted on 3rd fret, 6th string



Next, exactly same shape and frets, but I've used a "rerooting" facility in the software to change the root to be A (5th fret, 6th string ... so, all intervals are now measured from here, as opposed to G).



If I play a tune in G major, I visualise the contents of that shape with the intervals in G major (and hence stress the 1, 3 and 5 from G)

whereas if I play a tune in A Dorian, I visualise the contents of that shape with the intervals in A Dorian (and hence stress the 1, b3 and 5 from A). Now I forget all about G major ... I couldn't care less that this shape originally came from G major ... that doesn't help me at all to make the music sound like its A Dorian.

My advice is to forget all about where a mode originates from. Just accept it as a palette of sounds, and start from there, learning how to use this palette to bring out the tonality, and for handling resolutions).

For example, are you happy to learn the minor blues scale, and how to use it, or do you need to know how it originated to use it? I just use it. You get my point?

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jun 20, 2015,
#17
The origin of modal harmony is extremely complicated if you don't already know how tonal chord progressions work (I mean actual progressions, not just series of chords).

You really need to grasp the traditional concept of harmonic motion before static harmony will make any sense. When people talk about scales as "modes", it's a concept derived entirely from the harmony.
#18
Quote by cdgraves
The origin of modal harmony is extremely complicated if you don't already know how tonal chord progressions work (I mean actual progressions, not just series of chords).

You really need to grasp the traditional concept of harmonic motion before static harmony will make any sense. When people talk about scales as "modes", it's a concept derived entirely from the harmony.


That's not true. There are many unaccompanied folk songs (melodies) using modes.

It is also entirely possible to write chord progressions using modes that lead to, or emphasise the tonal centre.

cheers, Jerry
#19
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Heeellloooooo guitar players all over the world I have a simple question with a probably very simple answer too. I think.

Okay,so as some of you might remember I'm the dude posting my first couple of posts a while back in this thread asking a bunch of questions I really should've researched on my own before hand,to stop wasting your precious time Though this is a question I think I know the answer too but yet I can't confront myself with the answer,even though I vaguely know it. Does that even make sense? xD

Okay,onward to the question. For the most part as a beginner I've learnt my C major scale,I've learnt my Cmajor chords. Sus2 and Sus4 variants. I've learnt the C major in "open position" and in the "first position"....blahhh.....positions,positions and more positions everywhere.

Are these "positions" pre-determined? Are these "positions" something that just IS? Or are these "positions" just a bunch of "positions" the random guitar teacher/dude on youtube made up themselves and call them positions?

I mean,some call that position number 1,someone call that same position number 2. Can I make my own position? Or are these positions pre-determined by the intervals in the scale?

Or wait,no....the interval between a C note on the A string 3rd fret and the D note on the b string 3rd fret the same as the interval between a C note on the E string 8th fret and the D note on the E string 10th fret? It do sound the same unless I'm completely tone-deaf?

So in that regard,if the positions that all these youtube guys throw at us ain't the answer....then I can make up my own positions? See,I thought at first that the 1st position of the Cmajor scale would start off at C,E string 8th fret and the 2nd position would then start on the D,aka the 2nd DEGREE of the major scale. Hence the name "position 2"...so I played the 2nd position as i thought how it was. D E F G A B C D...
E string- 10 12
A string- 8 10 12
D string- 9 10 12 Completing the 1st octave at 12
G string- 9 10 12 Starting the 2nd octave at 9
B string- 10 12
e string- 8 10 Completing the 2nd octave at 10

Or is positions ultimately just what they say it is,a bunch of notes from a scale sorted into nice,neat little (majorilyrestrainingfreethinking) positions?

I'm lost at positions,I feel like it ****s up my entire life. ****ing positions. But what I've been thinking all along is (kind of)...a scale is a scale no matter where it finds itself on the fretboard as long as it contains the notes of said scale and are used in said context?

If this is true,I feel pissed at "teachers" teaching away these ****ing scale positions as the absolute truth and like it was the very first fundamental laws of the universe.

/Partly ranting off.

Now,what is it? :=)

Cheers,frustrated newbie from Norway.



Lets do the C major scale.

The C major scale spans the entire fretboard.


There are many ways of breaking that large scale into smaller "positions".

One such way is to find all the C notes on the fretboard...


Then grouping these C notes by joining two neighbouring C notes into "octave shapes".


Then build major chords around those C octave shapes to give you the C major chords across the entire fretboard...






Here they are all laid out across the entire fretboard...
Si
#20
Then by building the C major scale around each C major chord shape you get five overlapping positions that span the entire fretboard...


These five positions make up the entire C major scale across the whole fretboard.

=========

There are other ways of breaking up the major scale into smaller more manageable regions (or positions).

They do not restrict free thinking or creativity in anyway. There are no rules around these positions in regard to how they are used. They are simply an aid to learning and understanding the fretboard and specifically the major scale. There is nothing intrinsic about them that is limiting. In fact they are quite the opposite.

Limitations to free thinking and creativity are caused by a lack of knowledge and understanding. When used correctly these positions will expand your knowledge and understanding of the fretboard. Thus they will actually do the opposite and feed your mind the information it needs to overcome such limitations.
Si
#21

Left here if only for reflection...

TWENTY
you wizard!!... (looks like you beat me to it)... but hey all good.

I'll throw mine in also:
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
...positions everywhere.
Are these "positions" pre-determined? Are these "positions" something that just IS?
Yeah pretty much... I mean, the language overlaps a bit with guitarists (I've noticed) especially on Youtube. (depending on context - read on).
1. Some have referred to frets as positions.
2. I have seen/read (can't remember) where a song started/based itself on a C major chord played at the 8th fret using the E Shape Barre Chord, and they referred to that E Shaped C Chord as if first position... yeeah? I guess can follow that, if only for the purpose of again context from that guy's ramblings?
3. Personally I subscribe to the method 20Tigers Illustrates above, for the fact that I typically relate first position to the open chord position/shape. (some say Tom-mate-toes... I say Tom-mart-toes...)

Here's my diagram (like 20Tigers'), Illustrating the C-A-G-E-D theory:
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
...are these positions pre-determined by the intervals in the scale?
They could? (provided we are able to follow their logic)... again first position for me usually resides at the open position.
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Or wait,no....the interval between a C note on the A string 3rd fret and the D note on the b string 3rd fret the same as the interval between a C note on the E string 8th fret and the D note on the E string 10th fret? It do sound the same unless I'm completely tone-deaf?
Nah, you got it!!
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
So in that regard... can I make up my own positions?
... no not really... not until you (like some of those Youtubers) actually have a descent grasp on such things... only then, can you ramble like these guys all you want... but only those who have a similar grasp at this level, will most likely follow... make sense?
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
See,I thought at first that the 1st position of the Cmajor scale would start off at C,E string 8th fret and the 2nd position would then start on the D,aka the 2nd DEGREE of the major scale.
I guess you now know the answer to this already by now? No? The 2nd 'degree' is the 2nd 'degree'... not position.
Position is more like 'placement or location upon the fretboard'... A scale degree (albeit the 2nd or whatever) can start from 'any' of the resulting 'positions' of the fretboard (just look at how many D notes there are across the fretboard - they ALL could be the 2nd degree of the C Major Scale)... make sense?
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Hence the name "position 2"...so I played the 2nd position as i thought how it was. D E F G A B C D...
E string- 10 12
A string- 8 10 12
D string- 9 10 12 Completing the 1st octave at 12
G string- 9 10 12 Starting the 2nd octave at 9
B string- 10 12
e string- 8 10 Completing the 2nd octave at 10
Yeah that was kinda the thing I saw/read somewhere, but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking myself. Also as others have pointed out in this thread... that's definately the Dorian (second mode) of C Major alright... so it's D Dorian (try think of it as Dorian 'Scale'... not 'Dorian Mode'... for now... it will save you a tonne of misunderstandings at this particular forum... a 'little' more on that later).
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Or is positions ultimately just what they say it is,a bunch of notes from a scale sorted into nice,neat little (majorilyrestrainingfreethinking) positions?
You should_ now know what a position is, as opposed to a scale degree by now?
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
But what I've been thinking all along is (kind of)...a scale is a scale no matter where it finds itself on the fretboard as long as it contains the notes of said scale and are used in said context?
Couldn't have said it better myself! I think you are fundamentally on the right track.
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
If this is true,I feel pissed at "teachers" teaching away these ****ing scale positions as the absolute truth and like it was the very first fundamental laws of the universe.
Yep those fricken Youtubers... I feel your pain. My best advice is lurk around these threads... just look for thread titles like what you're seeking... there can be some back and forth here and that can sometimes be insightful, giving both sides of the debate and ultimately coming to a final conclusion)... and sometimes not!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jun 22, 2015,
#22

Left here only for reflection


Modes
                                    Scale Degrees
Mode/Scale                          1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1
ionian      mode: (major scale)     C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C	
dorian      mode:                   D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D	
phrygian    mode:                   E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E	
lydian      mode:                   F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F	
mixolydian  mode:                   G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G	
aeolian     mode: (minor scale)     A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A	
locrian     mode:                   B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B
OK so... D Dorian contains the same notes as C Ionian (or C Major Scale)
But the notes go from D to D: (c) - D - E - F - G - A - B - C - D
And the note 'D' is now the sound of home (not C).

C Major/Ionain typically has a Major sound.
Degrees 1, 3, and 5 of the C Major Scale (C Ionian Mode) make a C Major Chord.
1-3-5 = C-E-G = C Major Chord.

D Dorian typically has a Minor sound.
Degrees 1, 3 and 5 of the D Dorian Mode make a D Minor Chord.
1-3-5 = D-F-A = D Minor Chord.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Major Scale (Ionian Mode) "Formula" is:

Degrees 1-2-[B]3[/B]-4-5-6-[B]7[/B]-(1)
        C-D-[B]E[/B]-F-G-A-[B]B[/B]-(C) (C Major)

It contains a "Major" 3rd (E), and a Major 7th (B)

The Dorian "Formula" is:

Degrees 1-2-[B]b3[/B]-4-5-6-[B]b7[/B]-(1) 
        D-E-[B]F[/B]--G-A-B-[B]C[/B]--(D) (D Dorian)

It contains a "Minor 3rd (F), and a Flat 7th (D)
(We say Flat 7th when labeling the 7th degree of a scale/mode because the 3rd of a chord is what typically defines Minor/Major Chord Types).

Eg: A D Minor Seventh Chord (Dm7), contains a Minor 3rd (F) and a Flat 7th (C)
(confusing? ...for now... just let it be so....)

So what have you learnt???
Dorian is the Second Mode of ANY typical Major Scale - Built from the 2nd degree of that Major Scale.

Eg: D Dorian is built from the 2nd degree of the C Major Scale

You'll remember from above:

Degrees   [B](1)[/B] (2) [B](3)[/B] (4) [B](5)[/B] (6) (7)
C Major  = [B]C[/B] - D - [B]E[/B] - F - [B]G[/B] - A - B

D Dorian =     [B]D[/B] - E - [B]F[/B] - G - [B]A[/B] - B - C
Degrees       [B](1)[/B] (2) [B](3)[/B] (4) [B](5)[/B] (6) (7)
Degrees 1, 3 and 5 of the C Major Scale make a C Major Chord (Triad)
Degrees 1, 3 and 5 of the D Dorian Mode make a D Minor Chord (Triad)

Remember: The D note (for D Dorian) is now a (1 - the first note of that mode) not a (2 - it's no longer the second note of C Major). Because we're now in Dorian!!!



So lets now compare D Dorian to C Dorian:
Well we've already done D Dorian, so lets look at C Dorian.

Again: Dorian is the Second Mode of ANY Typical Major Scale.

So how do we get C Dorian?
As just restated above (Dorian is the Second Mode of any typical Major Scale)
So for C Dorian, it has to be the 2nd mode of the... Bb Major Scale.

Okay lets go there:
FYI: If you're wondering why it's called the B flat major scale (Bb) and not the A sharp major scale (A#)... As you will see we already have an A in the Scale of Bb Major ...and Double Flats (eg: Cx) will just over complicate things right now.
Look into Key Signatures in your own time...

Degrees         (1)  (2) (3) (4)  (5) (6) (7)  (1) 
Bb Major Scale = Bb - C - D - Eb - F - G - A - (Bb)
C Dorian Mode  =      C - D - Eb - F - G - A -  Bb - C
Degrees              (1) (2) (b3) (4) (5) (6)  (b7) (1) 

Major   =  1 2 3  4 5 6 7
Dorian  =  1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7


Another way to look at it:

Practice this: Play a C Major Scale...
and now Flatten Both the 3rd and 7th scale degrees.
Voila! you are now playing Dorian.


More importantly: Notice how they don't even sound alike?

That's the problem folks have when they are learning the construction of scales/modes as you're probably aware:
Having built the D Dorian off the C Major Scale... you probably have the sound of C Major stuck your ears, and although you are actually playing D Dorian, your ears are still trying to "Grab" that C Major Sound as home (:ie C Major wanting to being home and not D Minor now being home).(Yeah I guess not really clear enough)

Here's a diagram of the fretboard comparing D Dorian (in which I call 2nd position), with C Dorian (also in what I refer to as 2nd position) LOLS!!

Finally: (Your Turn).
Here's the difference between the two sounds:
Both are played in the "2nd position" (...easy to grab at those Barre Chords)

C Major
e|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||
B|---------|---------|---------|---------|-[B][color="Red"]5[/COLOR][/B]------||
G|---------|---------|-------5-|-[B][color="Red"]4[/COLOR][/B]-2-----|-5------||
D|-------[B][color="Red"]2[/COLOR][/B]-|-3-3-[B][color="Red"]2[/COLOR][/B]---|---[B][color="Red"]2[/COLOR][/B]-5---|-----3---|-5------||
A|-3-3-5---|-------5-|-3-------|-------5-|-3------||
E|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||

D Dorian
e|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||
B|---------|---------|---------|---------|-[B][color="Blue"]6[/COLOR][/B]------||
G|---------|---------|-4-[B][color="Blue"]5[/COLOR][/B]---4-|--sl-----|-7------||
D|-------7-|-5---5-7-|-----7---|-5/7-----|-7------||
A|-5-7-[B][color="Blue"]8[/COLOR][/B]---|---[B][color="Blue"]8[/COLOR][/B]-----|---------|-----[B][color="Blue"]8[/COLOR][/B]-7-|-5------||
E|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||

C Dorian
e|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||
B|---------|---------|---------|---------|-[B][color="Blue"]4[/COLOR][/B]------||
G|---------|---------|-2-[B][color="Blue"]3[/COLOR][/B]---2-|--sl-----|-5------||
D|-------5-|-3---3-5-|-----5---|-3/5-----|-5------||
A|-3-5-[B][color="Blue"]6[/COLOR][/B]---|---[B][color="Blue"]6[/COLOR][/B]-----|---------|-----[B][color="Blue"]6[/COLOR][/B]-5-|-3------||
E|---------|---------|---------|---------|--------||

The [B]Major 3rds[/B] and [B]Major 7ths[/B] are in [B][color="Red"]Red[/COLOR][/B]
The [B]Minor 3rds[/B] and [B]flat 7ths[/B] are in [B][color="Blue"]Blue[/COLOR][/B]
As you can see (and hopefully hear), Although C Major (Ionian) share the same notes, the overall sound of each scale should sound definitively different to one another!

Note: If you play the C Major line... and then the D Dorian Line, your ear might still be hearing the C Major sound (my ears now don't how that's possible), but if you lower everything From D Dorian down to C Dorian you only have C to deal with and the difference in sounds should be obvious!

When working on the rest of the modes, converting each mode to it's Major (Ionian) equivalent (playing both over the major root) should stop your ear from confusing it with it's parent Major Scale.

Anyway hoping some of this way too lengthy response at least made some sense?

Finally:Click on the link to my signature if you really want to bash your brains in with modes...

Good Luck!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jun 22, 2015,
#23
Quote by Oddly_Phrygian
Heeellloooooo guitar players all over the world I have a simple question with a probably very simple answer too. I think.

Okay,so as some of you might remember I'm the dude posting my first couple of posts a while back in this thread asking a bunch of questions I really should've researched on my own before hand,to stop wasting your precious time Though this is a question I think I know the answer too but yet I can't confront myself with the answer,even though I vaguely know it. Does that even make sense? xD
Why do I get the distinct impression that you're going to one-up him, by wasting even more of our precious time, willfully, and with malice aforethought?
#24
I think it's just easier to forget about modes for now. First learn the major and minor scales. Those are the most important scales. After you REALLY understand how keys work, then you are ready to learn about modes.


The scale is all over the fretboard. The position you are playing in doesn't change anything. As long as it has notes C, D, E, F, G, A and B in it, it is the C major scale. So yes, you can come up with your own positions.

Positions are just a way of learning a scale easier. That way you don't need to learn the whole fretboard at once - you can learn it in smaller bits.

The name of the position don't matter. I don't really like calling them with mode names. That's very confusing. But that's one common way of naming them. I don't support it, but some people use it. It does tell you what the lowest note of the position is. Position "number x" is also a bit confusing because different people can refer to different positions as the position #1.

I don't think the different positions need names. Because what position you are playing in doesn't matter. The same notes can be found in all positions. Nobody's going to hear what position you are playing in. Of course certain licks are easier to play in certain positions, so if you are playing in a certain position, you may naturally play certain kind of licks more often. But other than that, nobody can hear what position you are playing in, because they are the same notes.


Whether you are playing in a mode or whatever doesn't depend on what position you are using. It depends on what you are playing over. If there's no backing track, it depends on what notes you emphasize. It depends on the tonic. A minor and C major scales have the same notes, but I'm pretty sure you can tell whether a song is in a minor or a major key. The same notes can sound pretty different. It's the same with modes. But first learn about keys, and only after that worry about modes.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#28
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
That's what makes it a hootenanny.
Nah! Hootenannies are I, IV, V., and sometimes iv.
#31
None of this has anything to do with modes. Defer to 20T's post and don't overthink stuff, you can (and should) get into modal harmony later but there's misinformaton literally everywhere and it will be very difficult if you don't have a solid understanding of tonal harmony.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#32
Quote by Jet Penguin
None of this has anything to do with modes. Defer to 20T's post and don't overthink stuff, you can (and should) get into modal harmony later but there's misinformaton literally everywhere and it will be very difficult if you don't have a solid understanding of tonal harmony.

Oh well that's got me ****ed then??
TS: Sorry mate, guess I have put ya wrong...
Jet: Are you saying my 3 Tab examples (end of my second post 22#) aren't C Major, D Dorian, C Dorian???

and I just thought it easier to say the 7th note of the c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c gets flattened (by comparison) rather than use "maj6" which didn't seem entirely necessary for this level? (and same went for my use of the word formula)... wasn't trying to be all exact about it?

No wait! yeah I guess that might've been confusing?
hmmm? yeah alright, I guess it went better in my head... I'll pull those 2 posts down.

Sheesh, talk about simple C Major to Dorian being rocket science...

and to answer another thread a few weeks back:
jerrykramskoy: Exhibit A: Yes I find music theory really hard... this is an example of why!!!
#33
^^^ As your posts didn't address harmonic context, they could easily be misinterpreted and aren't particularly helpful when the TS doesn't have a firm grasp on keys.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#34
you can't just change c major to dorian. things aren't that simple

you could call it a C dorian scale, but, i mean, i don't see the point of using scales to notate things the vast majority of the time anyway. i guess it can be considered a shorthand to remind the performer that despite the key signature, they defer to C as the root (in what is bound to be only a very short amount of time in a small section of a given piece) but if they really wanted to know that they'd be able to figure it out

in the same amount of time you can learn all your "modes" incorrectly, you can gain the foundation you need to understand functional harmony pragmatically. western tonal music is a very simple thing once you realize all of it can be broken down and explained with only a few fundamentals

intervals, tension, and resolution, and ascertaining the weight of these 3 things with a well-trained ear (which can be gained simply by listening to and learning music over time) will give you pretty much everything you need to start breaking down, understanding, absorbing, and adjusting conventions

it's the boring, "hard", humble and unpretentious (unless you're me) route, but it's gonna get you a lot more results than spinning on your head trying to digest stuff that the people teaching it don't understand rightfully themselves
modes are a social construct
#35
Quote by Hail


intervals, tension, and resolution, and ascertaining the weight of these 3 things with a well-trained ear (which can be gained simply by listening to and learning music over time) will give you pretty much everything you need to start breaking down, understanding, absorbing, and adjusting conventions




Amen. +1 to these skills.

That said, understanding the relationships between music constructs (intervals, chords, scales (whatever scale it is)) does provide plenty of scope for new ideas that may be hard to conceive aurally.

cheers, Jerry
#36
Quote by tonibet72
Oh well that's got me ****ed then??
TS: Sorry mate, guess I have put ya wrong...
Jet: Are you saying my 3 Tab examples (end of my second post 22#) aren't C Major, D Dorian, C Dorian???

and I just thought it easier to say the 7th note of the c-d-e-f-g-a-b-c gets flattened (by comparison) rather than use "maj6" which didn't seem entirely necessary for this level? (and same went for my use of the word formula)... wasn't trying to be all exact about it?

No wait! yeah I guess that might've been confusing?
hmmm? yeah alright, I guess it went better in my head... I'll pull those 2 posts down.

Sheesh, talk about simple C Major to Dorian being rocket science...

and to answer another thread a few weeks back:
jerrykramskoy: Exhibit A: Yes I find music theory really hard... this is an example of why!!!

I don't think there was anything wrong with your post. The way I would teach the differences between different modes would be to compare them to the major and minor scales with the same root, which was pretty much what you did in your post. That way you'll understand the sound of the different modes.


But the thread had originally nothing to do with modes. It had to do with the positions of the major scale which are not modes. If what the TS asks about has nothing to do with modes, I don't know if it's necessary to start explaining modes. That may just confuse him more.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#37
They beat me to it. You aren't wrong, tonibet, you have all the scales and whatnot defined appropriately.

The problem, as Maggara pointed out, is that the THREAD has nothing to do with modes, only the positions of the Cmajor scale, as well as a little confusion due to "position" referring to the area of the guitar as well as the pitch order.

Playing C major but starting and ending on D does NOT make it D Dorian, even though those are the notes. It just makes it C major from scale degree 2.

It only BECOMES D Dorian when used in a Dorian way, AKA over a Dorian modal framework or in line with the uses of Dorian sounds in CST. Application is king.

OP, you should learn the major and natural minor scales, and learn those note combinations in multiple areas of the fretboard.

Do the same thing for pentatonics, and then forget about learning any other scales until you get a real good handle on keys and how they work.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#38
Jet, Maggara, Jerry, Hail and Alan:
Thanks for the replies! Actually it took all your replies collectively to finally click to what was being said. Eg:When Alan mentioned "Harmonic Context" I was like... "I don't even know what that means???" Edit: I do now!

My modes post was more in reply to TS Post#3 and sure post#3 was a bit hard to fathom the question, save the fact that TS seemed (well to me) 'unsure' of what exactly defined ...lets say D Dorian (from example given?), hence my modal post.

I guess I should have stated clearer that just because D Dorian can have the same notes as C Major, does NOT mean we are still in C Major... but in all honesty... I k.i.n.d.a thought I did that? I have now highlighted these parts (post#22) in blue. I mean if nobody says anything except "mate you're not ready" they're gonna be no better off, which is why people actually come here in the first place (seeking answers)? And since there can be quite a lot of that sometimes... I thought you know what, I think I got this one?

Big (but welcomed) learning curve, and yeah very valid points all the same!

umm just quickly while we're here:
If I'm playing D Dorian, is the Key Signature A Minor? (no sharps/flats)
So it can't be D Minor correct? (idk, I gotta ask!!)

cheers!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jun 22, 2015,
#39
Tbh, I never was quite clear as to what the original question was...


@tbt72: The key signature is not a key in itself. D Dorian does not have sharps or flats, so the key signature is identical to that of A minor and C major. In this way, D Dorian should not be talked about like D minor, the latter which in its natural state looks identical to D Aeolian.

(However, there are uses of talking about it as some variation of minor. See "Scarborough Fair", the chord progression below taken from Simon and Garfunkel's version:


i | | VII | i |
III | i | III IV | i |
i | III | III | VII |
i | VII | | i |


The only quirk outside the minor scale is the major 4 degree "rosemaRY" (and the (b)VII-I cadence, but that's another discussion), which would normally have been A-C-E (minor 4) if it were in E-minor. But the enigma of the natural sixth in Dorian persists, and S+G play it to maximum effect in the guitar noodling.)
#40
I don't really like modal key signatures (though in some cases it makes more sense). I have seen both (D dorian with no sharps or flats and D dorian with D minor key signature). I don't think either is more correct.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
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