#1
Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn
#2
do what you like the most..at first..after when you KNOW the fretboard and scale patterns in ALL keys..you will be able to use any and all patterns..actually at that point..patterns disappear..

but to start..so it is not confusing-choose the one you like the most and really KNOW it..ascending and descending..after you have it down..then experiment with alternative fingerings
play well

wolf
#3
I mainly use pentatonic scale and the 2 notes per string major runs along the same pattern with a few added notes. however the 3 notes per string ones go very diagonal and are harder to fret.
#4
Quote by wolflen
do what you like the most..at first..after when you KNOW the fretboard and scale patterns in ALL keys..you will be able to use any and all patterns..actually at that point..patterns disappear..


i wouldn't go that far

that would require a guitar player being able to infer bulk information and translate that into functional understanding

halfway through that sentence every guitarist reading this drank a 12 pack of beer and started yelling about how metallica started sucking after the black album
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#5
Both.

/thread
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#7
Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn


The positions aren't modes. Focus on the major scale for now and get that down.

The major scale is one large pattern across the entire fretboard. But to help you learn it you can break it down into smaller pieces.

There are many different ways to break it down and each has it's own upsides and downsides.

The first method you mentioned is called the 3nps (3 notes per string). The concept is simple - each shape starts on a different note of the major scale along the low E string. Thus there are seven different patterns. Starting on that note you play the notes of the major scale assigning three notes to each string.

The second method you mentioned is probably the CAGED method. This method uses root notes, and the different tonic chords across the fretboard as a basis around which to build the scale. There are five shapes in this method. I prefer this method because it ties the scale shapes to chords and to the root notes. But it is often handed out with the student encouraged simply to memorize the patterns with little effort made to ensure the student understands the logic to enable a deeper understanding of the fretboard.

One of the biggest problems I have with the first method is that it is often taught with the positions named after one of the seven modes. This is very misleading because it doesn't really have anything to do with modes. However, proponents of the first method often say that because there are the same number of notes per string it makes it faster to play runs and easier to remember.

But to be hones I think Jet nailed it. Learn both. Then you have the benefits of both.

So please don't associate positions or scale patterns with modes.

Si
#9
+1 to 20T.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#10
Quote by 20Tigers
The positions aren't modes. Focus on the major scale for now and get that down.

The major scale is one large pattern across the entire fretboard. But to help you learn it you can break it down into smaller pieces.

There are many different ways to break it down and each has it's own upsides and downsides.

The first method you mentioned is called the 3nps (3 notes per string). The concept is simple - each shape starts on a different note of the major scale along the low E string. Thus there are seven different patterns. Starting on that note you play the notes of the major scale assigning three notes to each string.

The second method you mentioned is probably the CAGED method. This method uses root notes, and the different tonic chords across the fretboard as a basis around which to build the scale. There are five shapes in this method. I prefer this method because it ties the scale shapes to chords and to the root notes. But it is often handed out with the student encouraged simply to memorize the patterns with little effort made to ensure the student understands the logic to enable a deeper understanding of the fretboard.

One of the biggest problems I have with the first method is that it is often taught with the positions named after one of the seven modes. This is very misleading because it doesn't really have anything to do with modes. However, proponents of the first method often say that because there are the same number of notes per string it makes it faster to play runs and easier to remember.

But to be hones I think Jet nailed it. Learn both. Then you have the benefits of both.

So please don't associate positions or scale patterns with modes.



Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..
#11
These are all valid, if slightly differently nuanced, understandings of what modes are. The scale formulae are more useful when dealing with standard note notation (instead of tab).
#12
Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..

Well, sort of. But they have nothing to do with 3nps or any other scale shapes.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#13
Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..


no

if somebody says "ionian" about anything, ever it's an immediate red flag that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. even if you were to be playing modally, i would have a hard time acknowledging anything as ionian (or aeolian for that matter) unless it was sheer exercise

we've been trained so long by functional harmony and the western system that if we hear ionian and aeolian, it's major and minor. they're not the same thing. modality got swallowed up like 600 years ago and reinforced with a much stronger sense of cadence and maneuverability.

saying the wrong names because they sound cooler is just an easy way to get eyerolls by anyone who knows what they're talking about
Quote by Kevätuhri
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#14
Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..
The point I was making is that they aren't positions. So if someone shows you the second "position" of the 3nps method and says that because you're starting on the second scale degree this is the Dorian mode...then you're getting bad information. It's still just the major scale. The way you described it above is pretty simplistic and without starting Mode War XXXVIII all I will say is that it is much closer to understanding modes than associating modes with a particular scale position on the fretboard.
Si
#15
Quote by Hail
if somebody says "ionian" about anything, ever it's an immediate red flag that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. even if you were to be playing modally, i would have a hard time acknowledging anything as ionian (or aeolian for that matter) unless it was sheer exercise


You just said "ionian".
#16
Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn


I learnt the scale and modes going towards the bridge starting with the index finger on the root and towards the headstock starting with my pinky on the root - this really opens up the fretboard because you can go left or right for any chord.

However, I just watched a master class with Kurt Rosenwinkel ( arguably the best guitar player on the planet right now ) and his approach is smarter - he starts the patterns with his middle finger on the root notes ( theres a video on you tube where he discusses this). This gives you more flexibility to mix chord voicings and intervals with your scales because you have access to your index, ring and pinky. You can go left or right after playing a chord, rather than be committed to one direction like when you start a pattern with your index or pinky. This is crucial when mixing comping with solo lines, though less applicable for rock or metal.
#17
Quote by Jehannum
You just said "ionian".


fuck
Quote by Kevätuhri
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#18
The various positions and fingerings of major/minor scales on the guitar are kept organized by being named with their MODAL names. They are not modes.

They look like modes, they're spelled like modes.

But just playing C major from E to E is not E Phrygian.

This confusion is the source of most of the modal misinformation out there. We borrow those names to keep things organized, but modal harmony and modal scale usage is a totally different ball game.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#21
They are just shapes. It won't make too significant of a difference choosing one of the other. Without understanding the music theory behind what is actually happening, you won't be able to really take advantage of the shapes in any real significant manner, one over the other.

If we're to take all the two string patterns, and all the three string patterns and lay them out side by side to cover the whole fretboard, the images produced would be identical. It is simply a matter of fingering.

I learned the five pentatonic box shapes, and a specific fingering for each one(I forced my self to use my pinky, and kept a position playing style) for a long time. This would occasionally make some licks and positions cumbersome.

Learn both sets, but spend some time trying to understand what is really happening underneath the fingerings.

I view patterns in two ways
1. To avoid learning the names of the notes on the neck, and the notes in the scales.
2. As a tool used after learning the information in statement number one to free your mind up for other things, and let muscle memory take over a little bit.

To me, the reality is you need to master both, the patterns and what's actually going on underneath.

To me, to address the second part of your question, the two note patterns make me feel like I am staying in one position of the neck, the three note patterns tend to make me feel like my fingers are flying up and down the neck a bit more. It's all just mental to me though, though the three note patterns help me with finger stretches a bit ok the lower frets, and may give a better shot for a otters to give me access to almost a two octave pattern, depending on the actual shapes being used, but in talking out my backside on this last bit.

Edit: typed this out on my phone, I'll clarify it a bit when I get to a real computer. Until then, have fun figuring out what otters have anything to do with anything.
Last edited by Shallon Dark at Jul 1, 2015,
#22
I play all of my modes with 3 notes per string. It creates a simple and easy pattern to memorize when you tune in 4ths.
#24
"To me, the reality is you need to master both, the patterns and what's actually going on underneath."

This... to a degree, but the answer is as individual as the people that play.

You walk before you learn to run. Patterns for some reason get stigmatize here. I see nothing wrong with them. They become a part of a natural musical development. I see patterns as consequential to the physical properties of the guitar. In a pentatonc sense, whether you have them as pitches, tendencies, or notes at the end it's 5 notes and your ear now what are you going to do with them?

When you're starting out, you're learning pitch collections; you're discovering how they sound against chords if a "key" even if you don't know keys yet. Progressions are already done, and you're creating something that hopefully through more trial and less error (backing tracks) sound good. Imitation is also a big part of this.

At some point, you feel like you've got a handle on it, starting to establish your musical voice more, and now you want more notes, so next come the patterns of major scales, minor scales, and most people just practice these notes and patterns over backing tracks, keys etc. They just have a few more to work with and more ear work and pattern familiarity. More chances to land on dissonant notes.

Maybe around this time, its a good idea to learn chords, triads, and other idioms of music theory, and start targeting notes and lines as chords change (chord tone playing) Then the playing becomes a bit more specific, less carpet bombing.

And so it goes from there. You might experiment with chromatic alterations, various approaches (CST) and the like. Its evolutionary, but as you grow and mature, each step plays a part in it, including patterns or shapes or scales, and depending on how far you want to take it, the essential idea as I've seen it, is that there's usually 3 stages:

Discovery, Comfort, Contentment/Boredom ---> if it's boredom, evolve to the next stage or stagnate.

That said, it also depends upon what that person wants, and what motivates them, and makes them enjoy music. There are those who enter into their 50's and 60's content with learning one classic rock song after another and discussing their Les Paul's and Joe Bonamassa with other guitar players. They will never get past a few pet licks and the blues scales. There are others who reach the stage of jazz, or bebop, or whatever. Not everyone's going to travel the same path or the same distance. Some will want to know more and more, others will be just fine with where they are.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jul 2, 2015,
#25
Quote by cdgraves
Who tunes a guitar in 4ths? You'd have a m9 between the highest and lowest strings.

EADGCF it is an amazing tuning and eventually everyone will tune to it. I will upload a video soon
#26
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
EADGCF it is an amazing tuning and eventually everyone will tune to it. I will upload a video soon

stop pretending you're a bass player you dumb poser
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