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#1
Hello lads

It seems we could tidy up a bit and get some more traffic going in a positive direction. I present to you the idea of metal forum genre primers. The idea is to create a collection of compilation albums that serve as gateways to particular genres of extreme and underground metal in a condensed method for neophytes to get a taste of what each subset has to offer. While the rec thread proves to be an excellent resource for exploring genres, this offers a stepping stone to getting one's feet wet before diving in.

The goal is to construct a handful of albums of like minded compositions in a particular genre that promote active listening, listening to full albums, and having a variety of flavors that paint a favorable picture of the broad strokes that can be achieved (opposed to variety for the sake of it).

What I need from you (yes, you) is what genres we should cover, the length each compilation should be, and of course, what songs encapsulate the essence of their respective genre.

So, what say you?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#2
The genres should probably be most of what is on the recommendation list. The obvious list would be at least Heavy Metal, Power Metal, Death Metal, Folk Metal, Black Metal, Thrash Metal, Progressive Metal, and Loin Cloth Manly Man Metal.

The time will have to depend on how many bands/songs are on them. Probably have at least an hour and a half or two hours per compilation since it's a fair bit of time but only the equivalent of 3 or so normal metal albums.
#3
This sounds right up my alley. If anyone is interested, we could even make youtube compilation vids for each album. (I've never made a youtube vid however). But we could make it a series. Maybe get a hit or two.

I say as far as genres go, I say we stick to the ones in the rec thread for the most part. Anyone who wants to make more specialized albums are free to do so, subject to the approval of the hall of course.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#4
I do like the YouTube idea and thought about putting that into the opening post.

I agree wholeheartedly with pulling from albums listed in the rec thread (further cementing it's usefulness).

What I seem to take issue with is the proposed length. Keep in mind the target audience is neophytes who aren't accustomed to sitting in one place doing nothing but listening for 1-1.5 hours. It most certainly is possible with discipline, but I am working under the assumption that the target audience does not have that discipline and was aiming for 45-60 min.

This would mean possibly splitting death metal into 2 parts (European and American) as they are fairly separate entities aesthetically. Same could be done for Speed metal and Crossover thrash, Heavy Metal and NWOBHM maybe (I'm not well versed in that area).

More input needed. Keep the ideas flowing, and of course, even if I say no to something, if enough ratify it as a good idea, we go with that. Unless of course something is just objectively better at achieving the prime directive. Then we just use that.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#5
I was going to suggest limiting them to 60 mins. power metal should also be split into European and USPM.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#6
I'm a big fan of Melodic Black Metal, so it would be nice to see something on that. It should cover beyond basics (Dissection and Sacramentum). Artefact is a good example and I think Der Weg Einer Freiheit would also fit into the Melodic Black Metal category. I think the compilations should be no more than 30 minutes and each track/piece should be very unique and identifiable.
#7
Fair enough about the time. I was trying to think how much we would really be able to get on it from a lot of bands, but about an hour would probably work well enough since most metal bands dont have ludicrous song lengths.

Splitting the scenes would be a good idea as long as it doesnt get carried away(e.g. florida death metal new york death metal canadian death metal swedish death metal) and would separate comps for first and second wave black metal be necessary?
#8
First wave of extreme metal in all reality I think can be lumped together. Celtic Frost, Bathory and the like all sort of pioneered it and each lent credence to the sound. We can most certainly drum up a half hour to 45 minutes of material.

Hayden, why do you suggest 30 min as opposed to say 45?

I do think there is enough separation to warrant a black metal split in regards to melodic (Sacramentum, Dissection, Necromass, etc) from standard (Profanatica, Burzum, Mayhem, Darkthrone).


And again, I'll have to take your word on the power metal split.

And yes, in reference to the splits, I agree that we shouldn't be to autistic with it, as Death, Morbid Angel, Massacra, Suffocation and Autopsy all really belong on the same album.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#9
I'd like to help out with these.

One suggestion I have is that we stick to the undisputed classics to avoid clogging things up with everyone's pet favourites. Judging by the rec thread, this may be a sticking point in heavy metal and thrash metal in particular, because bands like Black Sabbath, Judas Priest and Slayer have been relegated to starting points despite being better than some of the bands in best of.

I also agree that the compilations should be short and therefore easy to digest, and their focus could be limited to narrower styles in some cases.
#11
Quote by supertom1
Are we ignoring the deathcore section or not?


I'm not an expert on this style, I've tried it but just could only find a few bands I cared for so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think there's enough "quality" content to warrant a compilation and most people get into that music pretty easily when they start listening to metal anyway so it's not really necessary. I don't really know if it a melodeath primer would be necessary either.
#12
Death core is not unlike the American metalcore scene that spawned it, which is at heart an evolution of the nu metal bands and Pantera. As such, the primers are directed at such for said listeners who wish to cut their teeth on the nuances of the metal scene as opposed to brushing the tip of the iceberg.

Same could be said for melodeff, which is far removed from Melodic Death Metal (comparing In Flames and Dark Tranquility to early Septicflesh and Tritsio)
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#13
I would say 30 to 45 minutes sounds logical for a novice listener....1 hour might be a bit too much especially for some of the less melodic styles. Of course if we are playing ambient folk stuff like Agalloch that particular primer could well be an hour to maximise it's effect and also considering the longer songs on offer.
#14
@progbass: Well 30 mins is (usually) the upper limit for an EP, which is generally considered a "teaser" for many artists. 45 or 60 mins is fine but most people can decide whether they think there is more worth delving into after 30 minutes. I think if we're smart about how we divide the scenes/eras then we should be able to fit a nice variety of each sub-genre in appropriately.
#15
I can agree to that, the explanation is logical. It seems enough people seem on board as well. So let's start phase ii - actively defining the headers of each comp. So far -

American Heavy Metal
New Wave of British Heavy Metal
Speed
Crossover Thrash
DOOM
First Wave of Extreme Metal
American Death Metal
European Death Metal / Melodic Death Metal
2nd Wave of Black Metal
Grind Metal

Thoughts, additions, subtractions, etc?
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#16
Quote by progbass
I can agree to that, the explanation is logical. It seems enough people seem on board as well. So let's start phase ii - actively defining the headers of each comp. So far -

American Heavy Metal
New Wave of British Heavy Metal
Speed
Crossover Thrash
DOOM
First Wave of Extreme Metal
American Death Metal
European Death Metal / Melodic Death Metal
2nd Wave of Black Metal
Grind Metal

Thoughts, additions, subtractions, etc?

Question? Are you defining the Thrash era of 1982ish to 1990 as part of "First Wave of Extreme Metal"? If not, I'm wondering about the omission...
#17
This would be fun but I don't think it would accomplish anything beyond being just that, fun.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Question? Are you defining the Thrash era of 1982ish to 1990 as part of "First Wave of Extreme Metal"? If not, I'm wondering about the omission...


ANUS subscribers like to call that stuff Speed Metal.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#18
Quote by Morphogenesis26
I'm not an expert on this style, I've tried it but just could only find a few bands I cared for so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think there's enough "quality" content to warrant a compilation and most people get into that music pretty easily when they start listening to metal anyway so it's not really necessary. I don't really know if it a melodeath primer would be necessary either.


Totally, yeah. While there are qualit bands within the deathcore genre, such as The Red Chord, The Faceless (funnily enough I'm listening to Akeldama right now lol ), Animosity and maybe JFaC (although they only really took it to the next level after going straight-out DM), the genre, to me anyways, seems to have an air of 'ameturism' about it. Maybe we could do a compilation of good deathcore bands, I dunno.
Last edited by supertom1 at Jul 1, 2015,
#19
Quote by progbass

Thoughts, additions, subtractions, etc?

American Power Metal
European Power Metal

I can provide examples of the differences in aesthetic if needed.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#20
Could you explain it to me? I haven't really ventured that way and your primer and explanation could open that door for me. I've certainly seen the name drops around but haven't really gotten around to it.

Edit -

Speed would be your Exodus, Kreator, Destruction, etc

First wave - Celtic Frost/Hellhammer, Bathory, Slayer's Hell Awaits, etc

And @vg - yes it is fun, it'll promote discussion amongst regs, and it can be used as a resource depending on how much people circulate it both within and outside UG. I know I've used the Rec thread as a basis for other things and projects outside of just directing people of this forum. And if it encourages the listening and promotion of Hessian culture, then by all means I approve.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
Last edited by progbass at Jul 1, 2015,
#21
Quote by VampireGoldfish
ANUS subscribers like to call that stuff Speed Metal.
That's great...but they're not the same.

Quote by progbass
Edit -

Speed would be your Exodus, Kreator, Destruction, etc.

Eh...I guess. I mean, it's not something I see the need to argue at length about, as long as it's clear what's what.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 1, 2015,
#22
My argument essentially is that the first wave laid the groundwork for extreme heavy metal such as death and black bands whereas speed was just breakneck riffs and aggression. Both played their part certainly, but it's quite obvious the influence that Celtic Frost and Bathory had in the formation of the second wave, and same to Hell Awaits in regards to death metal.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#23
Quote by progbass
My argument essentially is that the first wave laid the groundwork for extreme heavy metal such as death and black bands whereas speed was just breakneck riffs and aggression. Both played their part certainly, but it's quite obvious the influence that Celtic Frost and Bathory had in the formation of the second wave, and same to Hell Awaits in regards to death metal.

Cool, that is sensible. Just was trying to get the whole picture view, as it were.
#24
Quote by progbass
Could you explain it to me?

Both are heavily influenced by NWOBHM, but cultural and aesthetic differences lead them down different roads in terms of overall sound. American power metal focuses on grit, speed, and in general has a more intense sound. Many American power metal acts share similarities with speed. European acts also intensify the NWOBHM sound, but focus more on melody than grit and intensity. Keyboards, frequent acoustic sections, folk influence, Queen-style vocal layering, and differences in riff structure.

For a much more in-depth description of American power metal, Powerslave's thread is invaluable: (His opinion of European power metal is quite prejudiced, but warranted in some cases)

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1629562&highlight=USPM

Listen to say, Jag Panzer


or Tyrant


then listen to even early Blind Guardian


They have similarities, but the differences really start to culminate a few years later:


The above tracks have noticeable differences in style from even the more melodic, prog tinged "white collar" American power metal bands:
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#25
I was thinking about the heavy metal one today. I've never really liked the way that NWOBHM is separated off from heavy metal in general, for example in the rec thread. It is a distinctive style, but it excludes bands like Judas Priest and Motorhead that predate it but are very similar.

One possible solution might be a similar split to the proposed power metal one, with European on one side and American on the other. I suggest European rather than British because Mercyful Fate are the only really important non-British/American heavy metal band I can think off (obviously there are other great bands, but these are primers).

To give a rough idea of how I envisage it:

European:
Black Sabbath
Judas Priest
Motorhead
Iron Maiden
Angel Witch
Satan
Mercyful Fate

American:
Manowar
Manilla Road
Brocas Helm
Cirith Ungol
Possibly bands like Omen and Tyrant depending on where the cut off for power metal falls.

Bathory's viking albums could fit into heavy metal too, and I'd certainly like to see them in here somewhere because they have such a distinctive and influential style, but the solution could be a viking metal primer (or, you know, a better name...) including bands like Graveland, Scald, Enslaved and Absurd.
#26
I still ascribe to Viking Metal not being distinctive enough to warrant it's own, however if enough of you jocular lot espouse for it then we'll include it. I can agree to the split of Euro-murrican Heavy Metal, as I am familiar enough with above listed bands.

Thank you for the lesson Kyoto, I am more intrigued with the USPM scene a bit and can't wait for the primer.

Aside from the two suggestions, are there any other genre headers to consider? If not we can move to phase iii, and quite possibly the most fun phase
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#27
Diamond Head, Holocaust, and Grim Reaper would be good candidates for the European Heavy Metal if you can fit them in.

EDIT: and of course Satan

EDIT2: you have it already, swell
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


Last edited by Kytokinesis at Jul 3, 2015,
#29
I'll argue against post metal because all post metal is really post rock.

As for progressive metal - state your argument
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#30
Quote by progbass
I still ascribe to Viking Metal not being distinctive enough to warrant it's own, however if enough of you jocular lot espouse for it then we'll include it. I can agree to the split of Euro-murrican Heavy Metal, as I am familiar enough with above listed bands.

I don't really think of viking metal as a genre but as a style that spans several genres. It is vague, and I don't mind if we don't use it, but it fits more with how I divide things up in my head.

Quote by Kytokinesis
Diamond Head, Holocaust, and Grim Reaper would be good candidates for the European Heavy Metal if you can fit them in.

EDIT: and of course Satan

EDIT2: you have it already, swell

I'm not familiar with Grim Reaper so I'll give them a listen. I've not really explored all of the less well known NWOBHM bands, so I won't claim to be an expert.

Are we going to use this thread to discuss specific selections? I'm thinking of short listing some songs I have in mind here and then people could suggest changes/additions/cuts.
#31
Quote by progbass
As for progressive metal - state your argument
Even as a giant prog fan, I don't think progressive metal should be part of a primer. Progressive music just tends to be a more complex form of some other genres or (rarely) an amalgam of a few genres. I see very little point in shoving several bands into the prog metal section, just 'cause. A primer is supposed to be an introduction.
#32
I do agree with that for the most part. I was mainly just curious. I won't argue about post metal either. Although I was making an observation that these two "genres" do have sections in the rec thread, and in the case of the progressive metal section, there are a few good bands that don't appear anywhere else. Namely Hammers of Misfortune, Psychotic Waltz, and Adramelch. Probably obscurities best left alone for now. And as for "extreme prog" I don't know, or care really.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#33
Extreme prog doesn't really exist in my eyes. If it's a death metal album with a progressive approach, it's still at its core Death metal. Thinking of bands like Timeghoul, Demilich, Atheist, etc.

This is also a sort of last call for any proposals, otherwise we move to phase iii. Phase iii will consist of forming lists. The general criterion is to choose band / songs that encapsulate their particular header but having a diverse enough aesthetic to keep a prospective listener on their toes. As long as we stay organized, we can work on several headers simultaneously. I want each header to be minimum 30 minutes and at most 45 minutes. Once a general consensus has been reached, I want you proles to actually listen to the compilation - where in an ideal case we can thrust the primer unto someone with virgin ears (as I would like to test the USPM one) to gauge prospective effectiveness. Obviously, the listening portion will only be as effective with the more peer reviews we have.

Hop to it my droogs.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#35
Not necessarily, but material put forth should not be pet favorites and should be of the utmost quality.

So sort of. But not really.
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#36
I'd like to propose funeral doom because I think it's sufficiently different from the rest of doom metal.

I'm not sure if it's entirely justified but I've been toying with the idea of splitting the black metal category, which partly comes from a selfish desire to fit more songs in. Do we think there are enough bands along the lines of Profanatica, Demoncy and Beherit to split them off from the more conventional black metal style?

As far as prog metal goes, I think metal is inherently progressive so separating out bands because they have concept albums or a few unusual time signatures seems a bit redundant (and why does that include Queensryche but not Iron Maiden?).
#37
I'm loving the idea as I sure as hell can use a proper lesson in heavy metal (been listening to every HM album I can get my hands on that was released this year, but much of what I'm listening is just sub par). I may not be a regular poster, but I lurk the shit our of this forum, so if there is anything I can do to help, feel free to boss me around.

Quote by progbass
I still ascribe to Viking Metal not being distinctive enough to warrant it's own, however if enough of you jocular lot espouse for it then we'll include it. I can agree to the split of Euro-murrican Heavy Metal, as I am familiar enough with above listed bands.

Thank you for the lesson Kyoto, I am more intrigued with the USPM scene a bit and can't wait for the primer.

Aside from the two suggestions, are there any other genre headers to consider? If not we can move to phase iii, and quite possibly the most fun phase


While I think Viking metal can be a thing, its very hard to give a clear idea about it to someone who doesn't know jack about it in the first place. It just borrows so much from other sub genres that it doesn't really have an identity of its own, but if you are familiar with viking themed bands, as soon as you hear it you know what it is. If you listen to Bathory and Amon Amarth, you can see the similar theme and tone of the music even though one is pretty much Heavy Metal and the other is Melodeath. But when you start mixing stuff like Falkenbach in, things get a little more blurry.

There are also bands that are refered to as Pagan Metal, but thats just bullshit if you ask me.
Quote:
Hey Im Looking For Some Tech Death Metal In D

Quote:
try anything form avenged sevenfold

I lol'ed.

Quote by Basti95
inb4 everyone else, well played
#38
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Even as a giant prog fan, I don't think progressive metal should be part of a primer. Progressive music just tends to be a more complex form of some other genres or (rarely) an amalgam of a few genres. I see very little point in shoving several bands into the prog metal section, just 'cause. A primer is supposed to be an introduction.


Yeah, I've tended to notice that from what 'Prog Metal' I've listened to, bands tend to sound like more progressive and/or technical variations of hard rock/heavy metal, power metal, thrash, alt metal and blackened death, among others.
#39
Viking metal can be accurately classified under other headers of extreme metal, whether it's Bathory, Enslaved, Nokturnal Mortem, etc

Funeral Doom? So like a 3 song compilation? I kid. If you can satisfy the parameters and still hold fast to being aesthetically interesting then by all means.

And yes I was debating splitting black metal from the 2nd wave and conventional
HESSIAN HAREM
FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HESSIAN CULTURE. STAY TRUE.
#40
Bands that definitely blur the line between USPM/speed and USPM/heavy:

Agent Steel
Savage Grace
Riot (I'm thinking Thundersteel)

If no one wants them for either speed or heavy then I'll probably be including them on my USPM list
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


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