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#1
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/06/30/melbourne-prison-fire-alarm--riot--reports.html

tl;dr: Victorian politicians thought it would be a good idea to ban smoking inside prisons, hours later there was a riot because of the ban.

Do you think a ban on smoking in any institution of incarceration (prison, psychiatric hospital, etc.) would be a good idea?
Last edited by Pastafarian96 at Jun 30, 2015,
#2
Never been to prison, but smoke free zones within public areas/cells seems pretty reasonable.

A blanket ban is stupid though, u'd never do it to the general public, prisoners should be treated no different.
#3
Quote by Gatecrasher53
Never been to prison, but smoke free zones within public areas/cells seems pretty reasonable.

A blanket ban is stupid though, u'd never do it to the general public, prisoners should be treated no different.


/thread
#4
Quote by Pastafarian96
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/06/30/melbourne-prison-fire-alarm--riot--reports.html

tl;dr: Victorian politicians thought it would be a good idea to ban smoking inside prisons, hours later there was a riot because of the ban.

Do you think a ban on smoking in any institution of incarceration (prison, psychiatric hospital, etc.) would be a good idea?


Not quite, they banned the sale of tobacco products in prisons over a month ago. The actual ban on smoking doesn't kick in until tomorrow.

On the whole, it's one of those things that sounds nice in theory, but putting it into practice seems to be a mammoth task, given that the majority of the prison population are smokers. (Somewhere in the vicinity of 80% I think). I seriously would hope that the Government consulted with members of the medical profession about how to treat th withdrawls and cravings....but you never know
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And everything must pass
#5
Quote by i_lovemetallica
Not quite, they banned the sale of tobacco products in prisons over a month ago. The actual ban on smoking doesn't kick in until tomorrow.

My bad, this is correct
Quote by i_lovemetallica
On the whole, it's one of those things that sounds nice in theory, but putting it into practice seems to be a mammoth task, given that the majority of the prison population are smokers. (Somewhere in the vicinity of 80% I think). I seriously would hope that the Government consulted with members of the medical profession about how to treat th withdrawls and cravings....but you never know

I think they did, judging by the way the interview I heard this morning went.
#6
Whilst prisoners riot against smoking bans, the rest of Australia riots against the discontinuation of manufacturing of green frog lollies.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/06/30/12/35/lolly-fans-disgruntled-as-manufacturer-allens-discontinues-green-frogs-spearmint-leaves
#7
Spearmint leaves can **** right off......they're lollies for old people.
Come back if you want to
And remember who you are
‘Cause there's nothing here for you my dear
And everything must pass
#9
#straya
o()o

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#11
Quote by Pastafarian96
@mind_meld - we are officially beginning to fail as Australia.
To be fair though, this is something that affects all australians
Last edited by Gatecrasher53 at Jun 30, 2015,
#13
It's prison. Prison is allegedly all about rehab. Cigarettes are bad for you. Nicotine is an addiction. Ban Smoking. Consider it part of their rehab process.

Either that or allow alcohol for those who are similarly addicted...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#14
as soon as you ban something as trivial as smoking in prisons it's just gonna turn into organized crime...


EDIT: Telling someone they can't have something when they're addicted is like 100% the wrong thing to do ^

You might think it's the right thing but it's cruel. rehabilitation and forcing your will are two totally different things in my book
It's over simplified, So what!

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Last edited by Obsceneairwaves at Jun 30, 2015,
#15
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
as soon as you ban something as trivial as smoking in prisons it's just gonna turn into organized crime...


EDIT: Telling someone they can't have something when they're addicted is like 100% the wrong thing to do ^

You might think it's the right thing but it's cruel. rehabilitation and forcing your will are two totally different things in my book


So based on your own words above you would support alcohol for alcoholics as well? Meth for tweakers? Good to know.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#16
Quote by Arby911
So based on your own words above you would support alcohol for alcoholics as well? Meth for tweakers? Good to know.


No, but the only thing you're going to do by ignoring someones physical or psychological needs is create non-compliance and anger

If someone is addicted to alcohol you need to help them realise it's not ok for them to keep it up and let them make the choice themselves, or as soon as they're no longer under the force of your will they will dive straight back into it, probably worse than before to prove a point that your will is bs
It's over simplified, So what!

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#17
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
No, but the only thing you're going to do by ignoring someones physical or psychological needs is create non-compliance and anger

If someone is addicted to alcohol you need to help them realise it's not ok for them to keep it up and let them make the choice themselves, or as soon as they're no longer under the force of your will they will dive straight back into it, probably worse than before to prove a point that your will is bs


You say no you wouldn't support it, but then turn right around and say you need to "let them make the choice for themselves".

Which is it? If you don't allow it they are hardly making the choice for themselves.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#18
Quote by Gatecrasher53
Never been to prison, but smoke free zones within public areas/cells seems pretty reasonable.

A blanket ban is stupid though, u'd never do it to the general public, prisoners should be treated no different.

Having spent a lot of time in hospitals, I wouldn't ban it anywhere that people have to be.

The 'no smoking' zones outside hospitals are routinely ignored(by people who have had amputations for peripheral vascular diseases caused by smoking; by people talking about their terminal cancer dignoses; and best of all, by pregnant women). So you've got people huddled in what little shelter there is(because I live in Scotland, and we have 2 types of weather - raining, and pishing doon), when they could be in a well-ventilated room indoors. It doesn't have to be comfy, it just has to be kept at a lower pressure than the ward outside, so that air enters the room instead of leaving it when the door opens.
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#19
Quote by Arby911
You say no you wouldn't support it, but then turn right around and say you need to "let them make the choice for themselves".

Which is it? If you don't allow it they are hardly making the choice for themselves.


I think you're getting confused mate.

in very simple terms...

If you take something from someone, they will get mad and try to get it back
if you find a way to show someone that what they have is not ok, they will give it up

Get it?

It's significantly more complicated than that, but that's the gist

It's why people have interventions, It's about taking steps towards rehabilitation not forcing people to do what you think is best for them.

If you ban smoking, you're taking away choice.
not the choice to smoke or not, but the choice to be rehabilitated or not. if you don't decide yourself to not smoke, you will not stop smoking. And in prison, regardless whether or not it's illegal, you will find tobacco. And that's going to cause way more problems than smoking
It's over simplified, So what!

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#20
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
I think you're getting confused mate.

in very simple terms...

If you take something from someone, they will get mad and try to get it back
if you find a way to show someone that what they have is not ok, they will give it up

Get it?

It's significantly more complicated than that, but that's the gist

It's why people have interventions, It's about taking steps towards rehabilitation not forcing people to do what you think is best for them.

If you ban smoking, you're taking away choice.
not the choice to smoke or not, but the choice to be rehabilitated or not. if you don't decide yourself to not smoke, you will not stop smoking. And in prison, regardless whether or not it's illegal, you will find tobacco. And that's going to cause way more problems than smoking


No, I'm not confused at all, you've said 2 contradictory things. How about addressing them instead of sidestepping them?

If you allow tobacco, why not alcohol?

You're trying to muddy the waters with incidental issues, but let's stay on task here.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#22
Quote by slapsymcdougal at #33477168
Having spent a lot of time in hospitals, I wouldn't ban it anywhere that people have to be.
Doesn't necessarily have to be banned everywhere indoors, but I think areas that are frequented by staff/general people, should be smoke-free zones. Having a dedicated smoker's lounge/room seems like a decent solution.

Quote by slapsymcdougal at #33477168
So you've got people huddled in what little shelter there is(because I live in Scotland, and we have 2 types of weather - raining, and pishing doon), when they could be in a well-ventilated room indoors

Last edited by Gatecrasher53 at Jun 30, 2015,
#23
Quote by Gatecrasher53
Doesn't necessarily have to be banned everywhere indoors, but I think areas that are frequented by staff/general people, should be smoke-free zones. Having a dedicated smoker's lounge/room seems like a decent solution.



Floow the Moskva
Down to Gorky Park
Smelling the wind of smoke
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#24
Quote by Arby911
No, I'm not confused at all, you've said 2 contradictory things. How about addressing them instead of sidestepping them?

If you allow tobacco, why not alcohol?

You're trying to muddy the waters with incidental issues, but let's stay on task here.


I'm fairly certain I didn't say contradictory things... can you quote them in context?(Assuming the context is understood)
My mind hasn't changed whatsoever in this situation and i'm very confident in my views(not to say I couldn't be wrong), understand that I am definitely not 'sidestepping' or avoiding anything.

I wouldn't be against alcohol in prisons. with strict regulations such as only being able to consume alcohol when alone and regulated quantities. Alcohol impedes your ability to make rational choices, which in prison could get very nasty very fast and when consumed in excess provides immediate health concerns, like alcohol poisoning.However, the benefit is to feel human. You can't be rehabilitated if you're made to feel like an outcast or a failure.
I'll move on though because that's another topic all together.

Tobacco addiction causes a physical need for more nicotine. It actually changes the way your brain functions to require and request more nicotine. forcing someone to stop smoking is like forcing someone to stop drinking water. except I'd argue the compulsion towards addiction is stronger than survival.
So outright forcing people in prisons to stop smoking will result in many many people who are already under enough stress to be made irrationally irritable, non-compliant,outright angry, and participate in now illegal activities.

Why is that good in any way? You're right if your goal is to temporarily stop them smoking... But they will NOT stop smoking.
the overall mental and physical damage you're causing, directly from withdrawal, and indirectly to stress related and illegal incidents(people getting extra jail time,hurt, killed ect.) as well as not actually rehabilitating them.seems to be counterproductive.


Ok here's a simple little analogy.

imagine you were to walk up to someone who's eating spaghetti and say 'nope you can't have that anymore, it's bad for you and you'll thank me later'

What do you think they'd do?

now in a similar scenario, tell the person eating spaghetti that you wish they wouldn't eat spaghetti, and work with them and show them that spaghetti is actually ruining their life. Show them how much better their life could be without spaghetti and help them eat less and less.

What do you think they'd do?

(those are both rhetorical questions because in the case of my analogy it should be fairly obvious what the average person would do)


Any of that explain to you my views on the situation and/or why I think banning smoking is shortsighted/stupid?
It's over simplified, So what!

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#25
Quote by slapsymcdougal at #33477219
Floow the Moskva
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Smelling the wind of smoke

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#26
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
I'm fairly certain I didn't say contradictory things... can you quote them in context?


Quote by Obsceneairwaves
EDIT: Telling someone they can't have something when they're addicted is like 100% the wrong thing to do


Quote by Arby911
So based on your own words above you would support alcohol for alcoholics as well? Meth for tweakers? Good to know.


Quote by Obsceneairwaves
No, but the only thing you're going to do by ignoring someones physical or psychological needs is create non-compliance and anger



Is that context enough?

As to the rest of your screed, I think you're forgetting this is prison we are discussing, not polite society.

As an aside, are you a smoker?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#27
Quote by Arby911
Is that context enough?

As to the rest of your screed, I think you're forgetting this is prison we are discussing, not polite society.

As an aside, are you a smoker?


In the context of the first post, we were so far talking strictly about smoking.
So when I say "Telling someone they can't have something when they're addicted is like 100% the wrong thing to do" you should be able to correctly assume that I am talking strictly about smoking
It's fairly common knowledge that weening is sometimes the best method of rehabilitation, and in other cases quitting cold turkey and many other different methods for many different problems. Nobody should ever assume that anything said ever is a blanket statement encompassing everything in its meaning...

So, When you said the blatantly stupid idea of giving alcoholics alcohol and meth addicts meth, obviously I would and do disagree.

They are two different conversations you created to validate your point, but it doesn't work that way and it isn't relevant to what I'm saying.
You can't use extremes to validate your point, especially if they aren't exactly relevant.
It'd be like saying
p1' ice cream is making people fat. We are going to stop giving people ice cream'
p2' no that's stupid, just because you give someone ice cream doesn't mean they'll get fat'
p1 'Well you wouldn't give a suicide bomber a bomb would you?? if you give them a bomb they'll blow something up!!'

It's a stupid way to try and make your point is what i'm saying.

In addition, The rest of the sentence after the bolded 'no' should fairly obviously again imply that even though alcohol for alcoholics and meth for tweakers isn't a good idea, forcing people to stop what they need to do isn't a good idea either. There needs to be a middle ground, e.g. rehabilitation.

All of that aside, I fail to see any actual reason you think smoking should be banned? other than 'it's bad' and the ever-condescending 'they'll thank us later, because it's bad for them'

And no I don't smoke, smoking is horrible.
It's over simplified, So what!

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Last edited by Obsceneairwaves at Jun 30, 2015,
#28
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
EDIT: Telling someone they can't have something when they're addicted is like 100% the wrong thing to do


Quote by Arby911
So based on your own words above you would support alcohol for alcoholics as well? Meth for tweakers? Good to know.


Quote by Obsceneairwaves

So, When you said the blatantly stupid idea of giving alcoholics alcohol and meth addicts meth, obviously I would and do disagree.


Quote by Obsceneairwaves
I wouldn't be against alcohol in prisons. with strict regulations such as only being able to consume alcohol when alone and regulated quantities. Alcohol impedes your ability to make rational choices, which in prison could get very nasty very fast and when consumed in excess provides immediate health concerns, like alcohol poisoning.However, the benefit is to feel human. You can't be rehabilitated if you're made to feel like an outcast or a failure.
I'll move on though because that's another topic all together.


So only for prisoners in solitary confinement then? If you need alcohol to feel human, there's more wrong than you might think... They are outcast from society, and they have failed to follow the laws thereof. That's why they are locked up, and pretending they aren't helps no one, especially not them. Rehab begins with accepting that YOU are the problem, not society.

It appears to me that you don't know what you stand for, nor why, you just like to argue.

You're not very good at it.

You don't want to ban smoking because it might hurt their feelings and cause them distress. Fine.

I don't care. Wanna smoke? Don't get sent to prison. I expect that locking people up, restricting their movements and rigidly regulating their daily routine hurts their feelings and causes them distress as well.

Still don't care.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jun 30, 2015,
#30
1. again with the 2 conversations thing, I've already said why you shouldn't use something out of context, especially when I've explained to context to you. you've literally just used the exact same quote to the exact same point, when I've just told you it's not only wrong, but stupid.

(the first quote has nothing to do with any addiction other than smoking..........Context mate... context.)

2. alcohol in prisons doesn't mean alcohol to alcoholics

Nice try I guess?
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
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#31
Quote by ErikLensherr
Imagine if we let them smoke weed to keep them docile


“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#32
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
1. again with the 2 conversations thing, I've already said why you shouldn't use something out of context, especially when I've explained to context to you. you've literally just used the exact same quote to the exact same point, when I've just told you it's not only wrong, but stupid.

(the first quote has nothing to do with any addiction other than smoking..........Context mate... context.)

2. alcohol in prisons doesn't mean alcohol to alcoholics

Nice try I guess?


You keep parsing that "context" bullshit if you want, if you're not capable of extending a thought I can't help you. Addiction is addiction, all your semantic chicanery notwithstanding. Do you know what "is" is? How, pray tell, do you expect to keep the alcohol out of the hands of the alcoholics? It's entirely forbidden currently and yet it still exists inside, I think your prison worldview is seen through excessively rose colored glasses.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jun 30, 2015,
#33
Quote by Arby911
You keep parsing that "context" bullshit if you want, if you're not capable of extending a thought I can't help you. Addiction is addiction, all your semantic chicanery notwithstanding. How, pray tell, do you expect to keep the alcohol out of the hands of the alcoholics? It's entirely forbidden currently and yet it still exists inside, I think your prison worldview is seen through excessively rose colored glasses.


i'm done

I sure you're actually being serious and I just can't
It's over simplified, So what!

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I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
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Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
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I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#34
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
i'm done

I sure you're actually being serious and I just can't


Please allow me to translate for others:
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
"I said some stupid shit here, and now I'm pretending it was all just a lark!"



Have a nice day.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#35
I just came here to say I had me a dingos breakfast but she'll be apples soon as I sink in me piss.
#36
we should ban jails and prisons so the we could arrest all the inmates that are in the now banned jails and prisons
superman is killing himself tonight
#38
I live like 5 mins from the rioting prison pls send help
| (• ◡•)| (❍ᴥ❍ʋ
#40
Quote by Cianyx
I live like 5 mins from the rioting prison pls send help


Just leave all of your tobacco products under the doormat and all will be fine
Come back if you want to
And remember who you are
‘Cause there's nothing here for you my dear
And everything must pass
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