Page 1 of 2
#2
Are they 4:3 fourths though? If not, they are not perfect you know.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#3
Wondering why the standard tuning is what is it shows some ignorance about basic voice leading and really, if you can't play an maj7add9 chord on the fifth string you really need to work on your chord technique, not come up with redundant tunings.

Perfect 4th tuning might have it's perks but saying that it's better because you have to learn fewer shapes is dumb. Guitar playing isn't about shapes at all. Anyway, trying to play some traditional jazz voicings on the 4th tuning would turn out pretty awkward. Just try to play a m7b5 chord with the root on the low E with that without hurting your fingers.

Also, such an obvious attempt at self-advertising that the mods are going to close this before you get your guitar tuned.

EDIT: Whoops, the m7b5 is actually a bad example, it's an easy shape nevertheless. Chord changes would still be tricky.

Something like a ninth chord would turn really awkward though, especially on the A string.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
Last edited by Kevätuhri at Jul 5, 2015,
#4
you're an idiot and that's from somebody who plays in perfect fourths

i also play a real instrument though
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#5
Quote by Hail
you're an idiot and that's from somebody who plays in perfect fourths

i also play a real instrument though


You but can you play an maj7add9 chord 9n the fifth string.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#6
OH MY GOD I HAVE TO LEARN DIFFERENT SHAPES.

Try playing 6 string chords in all 4ths tuning. That's pretty much impossible.

I guess all tunings have their strengths and weaknesses, but for regular chord playing I'm pretty sure standard tuning is the best one. You can play a lot of stuff without even needing to use barre chords.

I haven't tried a lot of alternate tunings. Standard works well enough for me.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I haven't tried a lot of alternate tunings. Standard works well enough for me.


This sums it up nicely. I see no reason to use alternate tunings since there's nothing wrong with standard.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#8
Quote by theogonia777
Are they 4:3 fourths though? If not, they are not perfect you know.

I really hope you don't actually believe time signatures can only have 4's as the denominator, because you would be wrong. Not because I say you are wrong, but because the science of music theory says you are wrong.

@Kevätuhri
I never said it wasnt possible to play any chord you wanted to in standard tuning. The point of tuning in 4ths is symmetry. In standard tuning, you can learn a chord shape for any chord you want, but you will have to learn multiple different shapes if you want to be able to play that chord on multiple different strings. Why memorize more than you need?

I'm also not about following tradition. I'm about solving problems in the easiest way possible. I am able to play any chord I please in perfect 4th tuning. A m7b5 chord is very easy to play in 4ths, and I only have to memorize 1 shape for it. You have to memorize 3, one for root note on E, one for A and one for D.

I'm also not advertising anything but knowledge. I made a video to help, I dont care about views or likes. 9th chords are fairly easy as well. Nothing becomes more difficult.

@hail
Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis?

@MaggaraMarine
The point, like I already said, is to make things easier on you. Memorizing less chord shapes is 3x easier, literally. I knew plenty of chords in standard tuning. So do millions of other guitarists. If I wanted to recreate your standard G major barre chord over 6 strings I would fret the G with my thumb (like I did in standard as well) and hold the rest down just like I would in standard, except I would be fretting the 2nd fret on the C and F strings instead of the 3rd fret on the B and E strings in standard.

What makes you think standard is better for chords? What is better about it? The fact that your intervals are all messed up and asymmetrical or the fact that you need to learn 3 shapes for every chord?

Like I said, theres nothing wrong with standard, I never said there was. Just try out 4ths and you will see its advantages. There are no disadvantages.
#9
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I really hope you don't actually believe time signatures can only have 4's as the denominator, because you would be wrong. Not because I say you are wrong, but because the science of music theory says you are wrong.

What do time signatures have to do with anything
#10
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
What do time signatures have to do with anything

Everything, apparently, when I talk about things. Ultimate guitar has a meme about me and time signatures because I like to experiment in time signatures that dont have 4 as the denominator and nobody believes in irregular time signatures so they make fun of me every chance they can.
#12
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
http://youtu.be/7mMZIO-MQHk
I made a short 5 min video on the perks of tuning all your strings a 4th apart. Anyone have any experience with this tuning?


Do you think it is more likely that all the history of the worlds guitarists and luthiers etcetera that have existed up to now are all idiots and never figured that one out? Or that there is actually a good reason why it would be worth it to make guitar a little bit more difficult to learn?

Easier is not necessarily better. On guitar there are some things which are humanly possible and some that are not. It is more sensible to fashion the guitar in such a way as to allow the greatest number of humanly possible things, in a tradeoff, for making it more difficult to learn, because humans can learn, and can adapt. But they cannot grow their fingers longer, or grow more of them.

You're right, it would be much more simple, and more convenient, and visually pleasing to have it tuned that way for a number of chords. But a lot of other things would become more difficult.

For your style, you probably usually have lots of distortion, which doesn't sound all that great with fat chords, so, idk, maybe for your style it might be better, but still, lots of people played your style before you, so, I'd be surprised if it was and none of the big names adopted it.

Me personally for flexibility in some of the bigger chords, I would dislike it, and for voice leading up the high notes into other shapes I think also, and for general real estate to get to the higher notes as well. I already wish my fretboard could be a few frets longer to let me go higher. I'm on acoustic.

I am pretty confident though, that the people that designed the guitar weren't just some bunch of idiots that decided to change things up for the B string, for no reason other than being morons, and making every guitarist's life difficult in the future.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jul 5, 2015,
#13
Quote by Kevätuhri
This sums it up nicely. I see no reason to use alternate tunings since there's nothing wrong with standard.


Saying that you can't see any reasons for using any alternate tunings is just as silly as TS suggesting that we should all use fourths tuning. You honestly can't see *any* reason?


I my god. I just actually watched the video. The part at 1:27.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Jul 5, 2015,
#14
I don't have a wide enough span. There are probably more historical reasons behind the tuning, most of which have to do with the preferences of the guitar players themselves. It potentially has something to do with having to self-accompany on the same instrument (chords and whatnot), and the presence of that major third makes making chords easier. Diatonic chords require the use of a third, anyways.

Also, theogonia was talking about temperament when mentioning perfect fourths. (Too wide )
#15
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

@hail
Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis?

yea

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I really hope you don't actually believe time signatures can only have 4's as the denominator, because you would be wrong. Not because I say you are wrong, but because the science of music theory says you are wrong.

@Kevätuhri
I never said it wasnt possible to play any chord you wanted to in standard tuning. The point of tuning in 4ths is symmetry. In standard tuning, you can learn a chord shape for any chord you want, but you will have to learn multiple different shapes if you want to be able to play that chord on multiple different strings. Why memorize more than you need?

I'm also not about following tradition. I'm about solving problems in the easiest way possible. I am able to play any chord I please in perfect 4th tuning. A m7b5 chord is very easy to play in 4ths, and I only have to memorize 1 shape for it. You have to memorize 3, one for root note on E, one for A and one for D.

I'm also not advertising anything but knowledge. I made a video to help, I dont care about views or likes. 9th chords are fairly easy as well. Nothing becomes more difficult.


@MaggaraMarine
The point, like I already said, is to make things easier on you. Memorizing less chord shapes is 3x easier, literally. I knew plenty of chords in standard tuning. So do millions of other guitarists. If I wanted to recreate your standard G major barre chord over 6 strings I would fret the G with my thumb (like I did in standard as well) and hold the rest down just like I would in standard, except I would be fretting the 2nd fret on the C and F strings instead of the 3rd fret on the B and E strings in standard.

What makes you think standard is better for chords? What is better about it? The fact that your intervals are all messed up and asymmetrical or the fact that you need to learn 3 shapes for every chord?

Like I said, theres nothing wrong with standard, I never said there was. Just try out 4ths and you will see its advantages. There are no disadvantages.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#16
Quote by Hail
yea


1:20-1:35 in the video.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#17


It's jrc in the flesh! What a sexy sexy man



But I am sorry. Tuning in all 4th tends to ruin the harmonic resonance of the guitar.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#19
Quote by Kevätuhri
Also, such an obvious attempt at self-advertising that the mods are going to close this before you get your guitar tuned.

uhhhhhhhhhh

even if you disagree with him, how could you possibly come away with this conclusion? what exactly is he advertising except for a channel with virtually no activity

almost everyone else is doing the same "self-advertising" with signatures anyway
Last edited by :-D at Jul 5, 2015,
#21
Your problem is you aren't learning chords, you're learning shapes.


You shouldn't say " i need to play this chord, what shape is it?"

You should say "i need to play this chord, what notes are in it?"


l2guitar
#22
The problem is you are assuming I don't know the notes of the shapes. You build the shapes based on the notes. It's more efficient to use shapes because it turns a chord full of notes into a single concept. Shapes are very useful if you know how the intervals are acting in context.

Tuning your guitar in 4ths doesn't change anything about what you are able to play and it most certainly doesn't affect harmonic resonance. This tuning promotes the idea of learning what the different intervals sound like. It allows for easy modulation and easy access to chords.

If you watch my guitar solo video, it's apparent that this tuning had allowe me to play things that would be very difficult in standard tuning. Being able to visually see the notes more clearly on the guitar with a logical pattern has allowed me to make the most of modes. When you play modes 3 notes per string in 4th tuning you will recognize a simple pattern that makes shredding a lot easier. The tapping stuff I do would be way too confusing in standard tuning as well.
#23
yeah cause shredding is sooooo hard to do and not everybody and their uncle can shred no matter what tuning they're in
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#24
Quote by theogonia777
Saying that you can't see any reasons for using any alternate tunings is just as silly as TS suggesting that we should all use fourths tuning. You honestly can't see *any* reason?


Bad wording I meant it in the context of the OP, which is implying that standard tuning is bad.

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
The problem is you are assuming I don't know the notes of the shapes. You build the shapes based on the notes. It's more efficient to use shapes because it turns a chord full of notes into a single concept. Shapes are very useful if you know how the intervals are acting in context.


You act like you don't know them, or as if you promote the way of learning where you don't need them. You need to realize that shapes that miss the root and the fifth might be just as valid in the harmonic context as full chords, and that raises the amount of shapes needed to play fluidly in a genre like jazz for example to a huge number. Simply learning a lot of shapes and thinking that you'll wreck anyone in jazz comping is going to backfire.

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

Tuning your guitar in 4ths doesn't change anything about what you are able to play and it most certainly doesn't affect harmonic resonance. This tuning promotes the idea of learning what the different intervals sound like. It allows for easy modulation and easy access to chords.



Like you couldn't learn how intervals sound like in standard tuning? With enough experience you can visualize the fretboard in standard very well. To me at least it's a reflex, I mind the gap between second and third strings without thinking.

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If you watch my guitar solo video, it's apparent that this tuning had allowe me to play things that would be very difficult in standard tuning. Being able to visually see the notes more clearly on the guitar with a logical pattern has allowed me to make the most of modes. When you play modes 3 notes per string in 4th tuning you will recognize a simple pattern that makes shredding a lot easier. The tapping stuff I do would be way too confusing in standard tuning as well.


Your guitar solo is not that impressive. You're fast, I give you that, but the lead is out of context with the backing track. That might be because you're thinking in patterns and not in functional phrases. Scale shapes and patterns are useful for practice and all but you shouldn't rely on them in improvisation, and use your ears instead.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#25
just watched that solo vid and there's nothing there that you can't do in standard tuning

not that i'd want to do it anyway

like, dude, do you listen to music? like, at all? why would you think anybody wants to hear you run up and down the same scales every other person knows how to play cleaner and better than you and in context?

i mean i probably did the same thing when i was like 15 but i didn't post embarrassing videos of it
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Last edited by Hail at Jul 6, 2015,
#26
You may have to learn less shapes if you tune in all 4ths, but you also have less possibilities for chord shapes (because they are harder to fret). More possibilities for chord shapes gives more possibilities for different sounds. Using different shapes sounds better. It's voice leading. When the notes of two chords are as close as possible to each other, it usually just sounds better than jumping up and down all the time. And when you have more shapes, it is easier to use a smaller part of the fretboard.

I haven't tried the tuning, but if your argument about its superiority is that it has less shapes to be memorized, that's not a very strong argument. It just tells about laziness to me.

For scale playing it may be better. But I doubt it's a better tuning for chord playing. And most of the time you'll be playing chords. Or I don't even know if it's better for playing scales. It may just be easier to memorize the scales. Playing something and memorizing something are different things.


I'm not saying you should start using standard tuning. Use whatever works for you. But to me your video was a bit condescending.


I just don't think there's anything wrong with standard tuning. I haven't heard of any people having serious problems with memorizing shapes in standard tuning. There's no need to fix anything when there is no problem in the first place. Or how many guitarists have you heard of who complained about having to learn all the different major chord shapes or whatever? That's basic sh!t that you learn during the first month of playing the guitar.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#27
Quote by rickyj
Your problem is you aren't learning chords, you're learning shapes.


If only it were that simple. Alas, his problem runs far deeper than that.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#29
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

Tuning your guitar in 4ths doesn't change anything about what you are able to play


Yes it does. I remember exploring this idea, because it is quite attractive at first. I don't remember now what was impossible, but I remember giving up on it because that's what I had discovered. The bulk of how I play, is the bottom two strings are roots, and the top two strings mainly carry the melodies. So, It is necessary for me to be able to play from one shape all the way to the next one. Meaning that if I am running up the major scale in the A root position, then I need to be able to run right through into the E root position, without needing to play a single solo note. I'm not sure if that would work, but it appears to me less likely. Like I said, I forget what became impossible, but something did. It might be a major 13th rooted on the A string. I like that a lot, and it would seem very difficult to play that way.

Here, try these shapes;

7
5
5
7
5
x

or

5
3
4
5
x
5

Obviously, what you can and cannot play will need to be different. You can't just say "you can play everything the same" because some things will already be difficult in standard, and made more difficult in that tuning.

You can do it that way, and think people that use standard tuning are idiots if you want to. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but I'm going to keep my tuned this way, because when I asked myself "why would I want to do that?" I looked for the answer, and found it, and I don't want to lose what it is I'm capable of doing now.

I would have no problem with doing something unconventionally. But not if it limits me, and that's the only reason I'm not already using that tuning, and not already really good at it, because it was a long time ago, that I explored it.

To add on to what MaggaraMarine was saying, there is also only ever a maximum of 3 shapes to learn for every chord, really. It's really not that bad. I know CAGED talks about 5 shapes, but the G one, is not really a useful shape to me, and C and D I consider one shape. In that way as well, the G becomes sort of an A shape to me, except I don't use it much. The shapes are real similar also, because it almost is all in 4ths, so it's not like the shapes are completely different, either. Learning that, is definitely worth it to me.

One other thing that is strong for me, is in standard tuning there are 3 places in teh major scale where I can barre the whole fretboard, and I can hold that barre while I play the entire major scale. It's a very convenient feature I find. If I change the tuning, I lose that. I have not come across another tuning that I have found is as flexible as standard tuning. Your tuning makes some things a bit easier, but that's not worth it to me. I learned a lot more difficult things than that, just to be able to use that sound.

But like I said, it might work ok for you and your style, idk. But it is certainly not something I would recommend beginners adopt.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jul 6, 2015,
#30
The shapes in standard have different colors based on what strings are being played how.

P4 tuning erases this distinction. Yes, 5766xx and x0211x will resonate differently, but it's the same exact notes. Meanwhile, in standard:

x02120 (aeg#c#e)
x07654 (aac#eg#)
x06650 (ag#c#eg#)
x07690 (aac#g#e)

576655 (aeg#c#ea)

The point is not ease of use, the point is coloring.
#31
This is an interesting thread.

That being said, there's probably a reason we HAVEN'T been playing in 4ths for the last 250 years.

Also I watched the solo vid and the anchoring and inability to hear the backing track over WHOOOOOOSH (delay/reverb everywhere) fills me with a singular burning rage.

But yeah there's nothing here for me to add. Kevathuri, Maggara, and Fingerpiking hit the nail on the head.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#33
Trying to remember the name of a jazz guitarist, who tuned in 4ths, and did lots of tapping (probably in the 1990's). Jordan someone???

But yeah, standard tuning suits me fine ... I haven't the will to relearn another set of shapes!!

For a beginner though?? Way more logical to explain.

cheers, Jerry
#35
Quote by :-D
i think stanley jordan does or did that, he may be the guy you're thinking of


He is the giy that you're thinking of.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#36
Jokes aside, I really want to know what happened to the "I can whammy without a whammy" kid. Where is he know? Does he have a whammy bar yet?
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#37
Quote by Kevätuhri
Jokes aside, I really want to know what happened to the "I can whammy without a whammy" kid. Where is he know? Does he have a whammy bar yet?


Why would he have one? You don't need one. That's the whole point of the video.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#38
Quote by Jet Penguin
This is an interesting thread.

That being said, there's probably a reason we HAVEN'T been playing in 4ths for the last 250 years.

Also I watched the solo vid and the anchoring and inability to hear the backing track over WHOOOOOOSH (delay/reverb everywhere) fills me with a singular burning rage.

But yeah there's nothing here for me to add. Kevathuri, Maggara, and Fingerpiking hit the nail on the head.

Putting my ring finger on the guitar really has no impact on anything at all. Not only that, it only happens once in a blue moon. You act like I use delay and reverb to cover something up but I assure you, my playing is damn near perfect and I dont need to cover anything up. I happen to like the way the guitar sounds, it's a little cleaner in person.

I feel like I am being trolled. Nobody is bringing up anything even slightly reasonable.
#40
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Putting my ring finger on the guitar really has no impact on anything at all. Not only that, it only happens once in a blue moon. You act like I use delay and reverb to cover something up but I assure you, my playing is damn near perfect and I dont need to cover anything up. I happen to like the way the guitar sounds, it's a little cleaner in person.

I feel like I am being trolled. Nobody is bringing up anything even slightly reasonable.


You just don't get it. It's not the subject matter we have a problem with. Playing in 4ths has it's uses. It's your attitude we have a problem with.

I'm really no one to talk. I often give misleading advice here on the forums by accident. I'm not that good in advanced music theory. People here probably wonder why I'm even here since I rarely have anything helpful to say. More hostil ahem passionate users like Kristen and Hail probably hate my face.

But I still believe that I'm a well rounded, skilled and passionate musician. Theory might not be my forte, but that's why I hang out here. To learn something new.

But you... you really don't get it. You boast skills much greater than you own. You discredit everything you disagree with. You're not here to learn, you're here to gloat with your "great skills" and "knowledge". You argue about things you have no idea about while assuring that you're "perfect". You're not always right. Quite the contrary, you're often wrong but you're too arrogant to realize it. And you lack common sense and basic understanding of fundamentals. All of your threads reflect this. So don't post here unless you're ready to back down on your opinion and show some humility.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
Last edited by Kevätuhri at Jul 6, 2015,
Page 1 of 2