#1
Hey all,

My theory book says that the major pentatonic scale has the scale degrees 1,2,3,5,6.

For a minor pentatonic scale it would be 1,3,4,5,7 (A C D E G for A minor pentatonic).

So it's not necessarily the scale degrees, but just removing the half steps right?

But problems occur when I'm trying to write out D dorian pentatonic. What note do I remove?

D dorian contains D E F G A B C D.

To preserve its minor characteristic I have removed E and not F, because no minor third would mean no minor scale. But then there is the B C. Which one would be theoretically more correct to leave out? The 6th or 7th scale degree? It boils down to either D F G A B D or D F G A C D.

Which one would be the theoretically correct D dorian pentatonic?
#2
I think you are confused about pentatonic scales. A pentatonic scale is any scale with 5 tones in it. Usually in western music it refers to the particular major and minor pentatonic scales that you described. But it's not like you just go and derive a pentatonic scale from every scale. The idea of using a particular scale is to get particular tonal colors, so trying to arbitrarily create pentatonic scales by shaving out notes without a particular goal in mind isn't really of significant value.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#4
Quote by NeoMvsEu

Which results into more than five notes in one scale. That's more of a combination of two scales rather than a scale on its own.

Adding a major sixth to the pentatonic scale would give a dorian scale vibe. But that's six tones there, not 5 as the name pentatonics imply.
#5
Quote by second post in linked thread

Dorian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|o|-|



This refers to how the Dorian mode looks. 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

This thread is referenced in the third post and gives the answer:

Dorian pentatonic: 1 2 b3 5 6 1
#6
Quote by NeoMvsEu
This refers to how the Dorian mode looks. 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

This thread is referenced in the third post and gives the answer:


Okay, that was 100% clear. So you just take the characteristic notes of a scale and use those, omit the ones they have in common with other scales etc.

Thanks
#7
If you compare the major Pentatonic scale to the three major modes you'll find that the notes left out of the Pentatonic scale are the ones altered by the modes. Using G as the tonal center, G major Pentatonic is G A B D E, G Ionian is G A B C D E F# G, G Lydian is G A B C# D E F# G and G Mixolydian is G A B C D E F G. You can see that the fourth and seventh degrees of each of the modes are the ones that get altered and those are the ones left out of the Pentatonic scale. The major Pentatonic scale could be thought of as the skeleton and it's the altered notes that determine the actual flavor of a passage, solo or song.

Same thing goes for the minor Pentatonic scale and the three so called minor modes: Aeolian, Dorian and Phrygian. Using A as the tonal center, A minor Pentatonic would be A C D E G, A Aeolian would be A B C D E F G A, A Dorian would be A B C D E F# G A and A Phrygian would be A Bb C D E F G A. Note that it's the second and sixth degrees of the modes that get altered and those are the degrees left out of the Pentatonic scale.

This is why the Pentatonic scale is used so commonly in every popular form of music and should never be thought of as too simple to warrant practice and study.

Good luck
#8
are you really still this thick? didn't we go through this whole conversation for like a year, like, 3 years ago? shouldn't you already have this figured out?
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#9
Quote by Hail
are you really still this thick? didn't we go through this whole conversation for like a year, like, 3 years ago? shouldn't you already have this figured out?

5 years later and still wasting time with modes smh

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#10
Quote by Hail
are you really still this thick? didn't we go through this whole conversation for like a year, like, 3 years ago? shouldn't you already have this figured out?

No. 3 years ago it was about modality. Now it's about modes as scales. There is a difference.

I took my theory from scratch again and now I don't just read but I try to use it. If my book says that major pentatonic has scale degrees 1,2,3,5,6, then I'll try to push my self to figure out pentatonic scales for modes. And yes, my theory book does cover modal scales very soon after the first page.

This way I can only move on if I truly understand.

I don't know why you think that asking what a modal scale is equal asking in what mode a song is.
#11
The D dorian pentatonic would be the same as the D minor pentatonic.

If you don't want to play that, play the D dorian scale, and omit any notes you like.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#12
Quote by liampje
No. 3 years ago it was about modality. Now it's about modes as scales. There is a difference.

I took my theory from scratch again and now I don't just read but I try to use it. If my book says that major pentatonic has scale degrees 1,2,3,5,6, then I'll try to push my self to figure out pentatonic scales for modes. And yes, my theory book does cover modal scales very soon after the first page.

This way I can only move on if I truly understand.

I don't know why you think that asking what a modal scale is equal asking in what mode a song is.


i think they're both equally missing the point

go pick up a trombone or something and take private lessons on that and learn to take a practical perspective on music. most musicians, beyond sheet music, don't learn theory for several years. why? because they'd do what guitarists do and focus too much on the wrong stuff.

at the end of the day, nobody cares what scale you are playing. at the end of reading your theory book, are you gonna be able to write a song? if so, i assure you it's not going to be as well if you had spent the last however developing that skillset

i feel like a lot of people spend so much time looking for shortcuts they overlook how simple music is. whether you spent 5 years studying at a prestigious university or you just sat in your bedroom making music you thought sounded good, at the end of the day, it's just a collection of sounds, and as long as it's compelling, people will respond to it

you can try all you want to dissect scales in whatever way you please, but how often does it matter in the real world which 5 notes from which modal scale you play? and even if it did, you should be able to pick that up without having to sit and think about it because you should know every sound of every note on your fretboard far quicker than you should be able to recall the note name and shape.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#13
There's no reason for "modal pentatonic scales". Minor pentatonic works over any minor mode. Major pentatonic works over any major mode. That's because the scales DON'T have the characteristic pitches of the modes. And that's what makes the pentatonic scales so flexible. That's why you can play them over almost anything.

There's no such thing as a "dorian pentatonic". Or maybe there is, but there's no reason for its existence. You can just play the dorian scale.

Or you can just forget about modes altogether.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#14
Quote by Hail
i think they're both equally missing the point

go pick up a trombone or something and take private lessons on that and learn to take a practical perspective on music. most musicians, beyond sheet music, don't learn theory for several years. why? because they'd do what guitarists do and focus too much on the wrong stuff.

at the end of the day, nobody cares what scale you are playing. at the end of reading your theory book, are you gonna be able to write a song? if so, i assure you it's not going to be as well if you had spent the last however developing that skillset

i feel like a lot of people spend so much time looking for shortcuts they overlook how simple music is. whether you spent 5 years studying at a prestigious university or you just sat in your bedroom making music you thought sounded good, at the end of the day, it's just a collection of sounds, and as long as it's compelling, people will respond to it

you can try all you want to dissect scales in whatever way you please, but how often does it matter in the real world which 5 notes from which modal scale you play? and even if it did, you should be able to pick that up without having to sit and think about it because you should know every sound of every note on your fretboard far quicker than you should be able to recall the note name and shape.


You're just making assumptions that aren't correct.

I know how simple the music is I play. I know playing comes first, then theory.

Before I started to learn theory I was playing for five years. With that, there are people who naturally have a vibe to some kind of theory. They will ''automatically'' feel what a cadence is and they know it sounds resolved.

Before I started on theory, I just played. Just playing is boring in my opinion. I want to know what I'm doing. I want to know what others are doing.

Ofcourse I can cook vegetables without knowing I'm breaking up the cell-walls of the cells in the vegetable. So you have people just dumping their vegetables in hot water and there is people like me, who are curious about why we do that. Same goes for music. I want to understand it. I know it's simple, especially the music I typically play.

The only reason I'm posting about scales is because my theory book discusses it.

There is bald theory and there is applied theory. I just wanted to know what the algorithm was of a pentatonic scale. No need to get your panties wet about me trying to learn music theory. I already have a practical perspective of music.
#15
Quote by AlanHB
The D dorian pentatonic would be the same as the D minor pentatonic.

If you don't want to play that, play the D dorian scale, and omit any notes you like.


^ basically this. Minor pentatonic (R-b3-4-5-b7) (and its inversions) are the only standard ones recognized. Any repeating five-note pattern (including the one earlier postulated, R-2-b3-5-6) is technically a pentatonic one, but cutting two notes from the Dorian mode would leave it sounding rather empty from the lack of scale degrees 4 and b7.

Basically, you should worry less about the pentatonic scale and focus more on the chords - major, minor, diminished - in context. If you want to alter the tonality slightly, go for it, but limiting your notes may not be the best idea.
#16
Quote by liampje

Before I started to learn theory I was playing for five years. With that, there are people who naturally have a vibe to some kind of theory. They will ''automatically'' feel what a cadence is and they know it sounds resolved.



To be fair, that is more have a good ear than having a "vibe for theory".

I agree with Hail on this one, you are better of just playing and learning than trying to go down the rabbit hole with theory. Theory is great, but it is never the main focus, it is the explanation afterwards.

So let's say you could make a pentatonic scale from any of the modes, then what? Can you use it? What benefit does it give you having a pentatonic over having the full scale? Do you have ideas already that crave the pentatonic? Basically, why?

If you had learned a lot of pentatonic approaches ala Michael Brecker and wanted to expand on that for example i could understand, but pentatonic scales based on modes just for the sake of theory is something i don't get.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#17
^What Sickz said.

Thinking about like a "Dorian" Pentatonic scale isn't really productive, because pentatonic scales are often used to generalize the harmony.

What you are better off doing, is superimposing them. Imagine Bm pent over Am7. That gives you:

B D E F# A
9 11 5 13 1

That's Dorian-ish. I did a huge Jet Talks Jazz on this, start there.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1669910&highlight=jet+talks+jazz

Unlike most of everyone in here, I'm NOT going to tell you to give up looking into a concept you're interested in. Only to tread carefully and take your time learning.

Everyone chill out.

Ps: I've SEEN this be called a Dorian pentatonic:

1 2 b3 5 6

D E F A B

But I can't disagree more, that's more of a MM thing, also discussed in the JTJ.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#18
Quote by Sickz
but pentatonic scales based on modes just for the sake of theory is something i don't get.


Really learning anything just for the sake of learning it is silly. Why spend time learning something that you won't use when you could learn something of value to you?

If you don't plan on using sweep picking ever, why put it the effort to learn it? If you don't plan on ever fingerpicking, why bother with it? If you don't plan on ever playing slide guitar, there's no point in learning to use a slide.

And it's the same with theory or anything. There is no point in focusing on things you probably won't need just to know them when you could be working on things that you will need.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#19
Quote by liampje
No. 3 years ago it was about modality. Now it's about modes as scales. There is a difference.



Quote by Sickz
So let's say you could make a pentatonic scale from any of the modes, then what? Can you use it? What benefit does it give you having a pentatonic over having the full scale? Do you have ideas already that crave the pentatonic? Basically, why?

Pretty much. To me, it's treating theory as prescriptive rather than descriptive. If there's no practical benefit, then why bother?
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 6, 2015,
#20
Quote by liampje

This way I can only move on if I truly understand.

Then you better get comfortable cuz it's gonna be a loooooonnng while

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#21
Quote by theogonia777


And it's the same with theory or anything. There is no point in focusing on things you probably won't need just to know them when you could be working on things that you will need.


Agreed. That is why (in my opinion) you should always start with the music you love, regardless if it is to develop your technique, learn tunes, improve your ear or learn theory.

Learn the music you like, analyze what is happening and internalize those concepts, then use those concepts in your own composition/playing/improvisation. Then repeat until you are good.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#22
^Yessir. Couldn't agree more

But I feel like I need to expand and add a corollary to that, because someone related it to things like fingerpicking, sweep picking, etc:

Continuing the theory/technique analogy with an example from my own playing, I almost NEVER use pinch harmonics; it just isn't my 'thing'. I don't plan on using it very often; 99% of the pinches I hit are accidental.

That being said, you'd be dead wrong if you think I don't know how to do them. Because a day will come when I'm working with other musicians and they want pinch harmonics, and I'm not going to sit there and tell them I don't "DO" pinch harmonics. That's insane.

Yes, you should learn the things that interest you, and make those a priority. But you shouldn't deny yourself something because it's outside of your little circle, and theory is kind of the same way.

Don't learn theoretical things for the sake of theory, please, don't. But DO go and expand your comfort zone and circle. Take time to learn things that may be seemingly completely unrelated to what it is you do, and find a way to integrate them and make it work for you. Why wouldn't you want to be the best version of yourself possible?

TLDR: Not learning things you don't need/use constantly analogy is flawed because how the hell are you supposed to grow if you don't push yourself to expand your comfort circle and try new things?
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#23
i actually opened this thread last night and was going to say something to the effect of "last time i posted consistently around 2010 or 2011 you were making similar threads", but i figured maybe i was being too harsh or i would have just been wrong. apparently i wasn't though. i say this only because right now, you seem to have the same tunnel vision for random concepts that offer no real value to what you're trying to learn to do musically.
Quote by liampje
There is bald theory and there is applied theory. I just wanted to know what the algorithm was of a pentatonic scale. No need to get your panties wet about me trying to learn music theory. I already have a practical perspective of music.

this isn't a concept of "x theory vs. y theory" though, there's absolutely no "algorithm" or anything similar. this isn't a field like data mining, machine learning, cryptography, etc. where an algorithm would actually matter. there's nobody programming a system to work its way around the web, find every musical scale ever, and lop off notes until it's gotten a five-note scale. why? because it offers no actual value to any musician doing anything. consequently, it's also strange for a human to focus on undertaking a similar effort

you can do ahead and do whatever you want of course, but ask yourself if this is just curiosity for the sake of being curious. where do you see this sort of knowledge being applied? since you're making a distinction between theory that is "bald" vs. "applied", what sort of music is this going to help you create or understand?
#24
Quote by Jet Penguin


TLDR: Not learning things you don't need/use constantly analogy is flawed because how the hell are you supposed to grow if you don't push yourself to expand your comfort circle and try new things?


I agree with you 100%, but i also think it is worth mentioning that you studied music and plan on doing it for a living, which will probably include a lot of session work were you are expected to be a jack of all trades. For a hobbyist, a musician in a band or a specific kind of teacher (think classical, rock, jazz) the situation is different. The hobbyist might never use a pinch harmonic in his life because he doesn't listen to that kind of music, the musician in a band will develop the skills that are needed for the music that he is playing for himself/his band, and the teacher will be focused towards his area of teaching (like we expect classical and jazz musicians to prioritize and teach different things).

Just thought that was worth mentioning, as people who study the craft and want to be professional, we can't afford to say no to any kind of knowledge. But another set of musicians can. It all depends on your goals, taste and frame of mind.

Best thing is of course to realize that all music has something to offer, and then work from there.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#25
Quote by Sickz
Just thought that was worth mentioning, as people who study the craft and want to be professional, we can't afford to say no to any kind of knowledge. But another set of musicians can. It all depends on your goals, taste and frame of mind.

Best thing is of course to realize that all music has something to offer, and then work from there.


It's good that you mentioned this. One of the biggest problems I have with MT is people (mostly the older guys) that are "working" musicians that try to act like their perspective is the only valid one. Not everyone wants to play in a classic rock cover band, not everyone wants to be a jazz session musician, and not everyone wants to be a guitar teacher.

And so you end up with a bunch of "professional" musicians (aka retired guys making $30 a night twice a week) telling people that they *have* to learn all these skills that are not necessary at all for what they want to do.

Like let's say that my only goal as a musician is to play guitar in a bluegrass band and play local venues and jam sessions and open mic nights. If that is my goal, and I'm not some guy that with thousands of dollars of debt from music school that desperately needs to do whatever I can to make to make a buck playing music, then there is absolutely no reason for me to spend my time learning to do pinch harmonics.

Though I admit that that might not have been the best example since, thinking back, pinch harmonics is an easy technique that takes all of no effort to learn.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#26
Quote by Sickz
I agree with you 100%, but i also think it is worth mentioning that you studied music and plan on doing it for a living, which will probably include a lot of session work were you are expected to be a jack of all trades. For a hobbyist, a musician in a band or a specific kind of teacher (think classical, rock, jazz) the situation is different. The hobbyist might never use a pinch harmonic in his life because he doesn't listen to that kind of music, the musician in a band will develop the skills that are needed for the music that he is playing for himself/his band, and the teacher will be focused towards his area of teaching (like we expect classical and jazz musicians to prioritize and teach different things).

Just thought that was worth mentioning, as people who study the craft and want to be professional, we can't afford to say no to any kind of knowledge. But another set of musicians can. It all depends on your goals, taste and frame of mind.

Best thing is of course to realize that all music has something to offer, and then work from there.

"I'm never going to use it" is just a lazy man's excuse for not learning new things. I think with people like Jet, it's more of a mindset or conditioning. For me I just really like seeking out new things, because having them there in your palette of knowledge really gives you so many more possibilities.

TLDR: Learning news things create pathways for you. 'Cause why the hell not.
#27
But why learn something new that you defintiely aren't going to use when you could learn something new that you definitely are going to use?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#28
See, that's the problem I have with you people. How the hell do you know you aren't going to use something if you don't know it exists?
#29
Quote by GoldenGuitar
"I'm never going to use it" is just a lazy man's excuse for not learning new things. I think with people like Jet, it's more of a mindset or conditioning. For me I just really like seeking out new things, because having them there in your palette of knowledge really gives you so many more possibilities.

sometimes it is laziness, and sometimes it is the recognition that something offers no value for whatever your musical goals are. in this case i'd actually go a step further and say it offers no value for anyone's musical goals because it's a search for meaningless information rather than knowledge.

feel free to explain how the technique op described will "give your palette of knowledge so many more possibilities" though
#30
Quote by GoldenGuitar
See, that's the problem I have with you people. How the hell do you know you aren't going to use something if you don't know it exists?


Do you speak Old Icelandic? At least basic phrases, like "please", "thank you", "where is...", how much does this cost?", etc?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Jul 6, 2015,
#31
Quote by :-D

feel free to explain how the technique op described will "give your palette of knowledge so many more possibilities" though


But OP didn't describe a technique in his thread?
#32
+1000 to GG.

I'm not telling anyone that they should be learning all these things. You want to just go play whatever it is you want and only learn the things you want? That's TOTALLY fine.

What is NOT fine is coming after everyone who doesn't want to do that is is trying to learn and figure things out and expand and make music work from them. Lay off. Get over yourself.

And for the record, everyone complaining about MT going downhill? I'm no genius but part of the problem is that everyone is openly hostile towards anyone trying to learn anything ever. The hypocrisy and double standards exhibited here on a daily basis are completely ridiculous.

It doesn't matter whether or not GG does. OP got his answer, and this thread is done.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp