#2
Not sure if trolling

well done OP!

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#5
Quote by SolidusArmor
No i'm not trolling

Ok I'll play along. If by disposable you mean the chord tones that are not essential and can be omitted, the first one to go is the 5th, followed by root.

Of course, that's highly contingent on the music.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jul 10, 2015,
#7
^/thread.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#8
It's an interesting point as to what the chord root may be if the 5th is omitted.

Apart from a few ambiguities, a chord's root is the root of the strongest interval in the chord. The strongest interval, when present, is the 5th (7 semitones). The root of a 5th is the lower pitch in the pair.When several of the strongest interval are present in a chord, the root of the lowest pitched interval wins.

So, when omitting a 5th from a chord, the root can get changed, unless someone somewhere is playing the 5th (e.g. in bass pattern, with root).

For example, listen to the difference between

x
8 <--- top pitch in 5th
9
10 (root of 5th). Chord root
x
10

Above is C/D

versus
x
8 <--- top pitch in 5th
9
10 root of 5th
12 <--- top pitch in 5th
10 root of 5th. Chord root

This is D11

cheers, Jerry
#9
OP you should probably learn at least the basics of chords before asking a question like this. Depending on the chord ANY interval is the most important/disposable. If we're talking about an extended chord you can get away without the root and sometimes 5th, but if we're talking about a normal triad, if we were to take away the root, there would ambiguity as to what chord we're implying, the 5th and 3rd of our original chord, or a 5th omitted triad of the relative major/minor. For example, a Dminor triad root omitted uses the same two notes as Cmajor 5th omitted.
#10
Quote by The4thHorsemen
*interval

In extended chords like 7ths and higher the fifth and the root note aren't really needed.

What? So, if I wanted to play an Fmaj13 I don't need to play the F and the C?
#12
All you need is A E and D. And the context of Fmaj13.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#13
Quote by Jet Penguin
All you need is A E and D. And the context of Fmaj13.

Interesting. I never knew that. Just so I can be completely clear on this what do you mean by the "context" of Fmaj13?
Last edited by J23L at Jul 11, 2015,
#14
In the context of an ensemble, the bass will generally cover the F. So you play the 3, 7, and 13, maybe the 9 if you want to sound thicker. Depends how many people are playing.

...Or the person playing the melody will "imply" F lydian dominant, or whatever else you are playing.
Last edited by GoldenGuitar at Jul 11, 2015,
#15
^Bingo.

Your ears do not hear vertically, they tend to hear horizontally.

Playing E A D right now, by itself won't sound like Fmaj13.

But if you play Gm7 - C7 and then that chord, it sure will.

If you play E A D after an A7, it'll sound like some kind of D chord. It's all context, but your ears can 'fill in' what's going on with the voice leading.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#16
Quote by Jet Penguin
^Bingo.

Your ears do not hear vertically, they tend to hear horizontally.

Playing E A D right now, by itself won't sound like Fmaj13.

But if you play Gm7 - C7 and then that chord, it sure will.

If you play E A D after an A7, it'll sound like some kind of D chord. It's all context, but your ears can 'fill in' what's going on with the voice leading.


Your ears do not hear vertically, they tend to hear horizontally.

Hence the expression, "keeping your ears to the ground" :-)

With you there, JP. One of the amazing things about music is how context lingers over a period of time.

cheers, Jerry
#17
Quote by J23L
Interesting. I never knew that. Just so I can be completely clear on this what do you mean by the "context" of Fmaj13?
The root is essential, but - as GoldenGuitar says - you don't need to play it if the bass is playing it. (That's the assumption other posters were making.) And if the bass is playing, it's probably better if you don't.
Of course, playing on your own, then you need to play the root (usually).
(JP's point about a rootless Fmaj13 following Gm7-C7 is about expectation. Naturally, whether you "hear" the F root without playing it depends on how familiar you are with that kind of progression; and you might still feel "something is missing" - i.e., that implying an F root is not quite enough. You may feel E-A-D alone is not resolved enough, or something. How one hears this kind of thing depends largely on experience and familiarity. Jazz musicians are so used to working with complex harmonies that they usually prefer to just hint at chord types, as minimally as possible: a nod and a wink is enough.)

Root, 3rd, 7th and any specified extension or alteration. That's what's needed to communicate the chord type and function, in full.
The 5th (if perfect) is optional because it simply supports the root. (Also, if a bass is present, it may well be playing the 5th as well as the root.)
The 9th (in an 11 or 13 chord) is likewise optional: adds nothing essential.

Also, if a chord symbol includes a 9, 11 (or#11) or 13, that may just be reflecting a melody note; or (in a jazz chart) might be implying an associated scale, not notes you need to add to the chord. Eg, "13#11" means a lydian dominant chord, and you may not need to play either the 13 or the #11 (look at the voice-leading between chords either side to see if those extension make the changes work better) - mainly it's just telling you that, if you improvise, that's the scale to use.

In short, the decision (of what notes to leave out) always depends on context: presence (or not) of bass player, voice-leading between chords (keeping the changes moving smoothly), and maybe any particular role an individual chord is playing in the song at that point.
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 11, 2015,