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#1
Hi MT pals,

Instead of me doing another giant-mega-post on the ins and outs of extensions, I'm gonna try taking a more interactive approach.

I'm gonna open this up as sort of an open "what do YOU want to learn about? " with the overarching theme for this thread being extended and altered chords.

If there's anything you've ever wanted to know about chords with numbers other than 1 3 5 or 7, this is the place to ask away!

We'll be slapping 9s and 13s on everything in no time
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#2
Double, just in case.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#3
But will we be adding 11s? I play all add9 and 6th chords all the time though.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#4
Something I was wondering the other day and forgot about til now.

With X6 chords and Xm6 chords you use a major 6th. I was wondering why for instance Cm6 has an A instead of Ab - I'm guessing it's just convention to make things easier, like how if you don't specify major 7 it's assumed to be a minor 7th. What would you call a chord with an added b6? I could see Cmb6, but the major variation would have to be in parenthesis I guess, like C(b6)? Are these chords not as unheard of as I thought and I just haven't run into them for whatever reason?

Also, am I right in thinking that with any 6 chord (and maybe other add type chords) the added note is more of a decoration and doesn't have as much impact on the function since they don't have the 7ths and such?


edit: I think I may have asked about this same thing in MT before way back, but I can't remember now lol
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Jul 21, 2015,
#5
I'm just curious about the way altered chords are most commonly used, anything from the simplest "tricks" to actual, in depth application. I guess my idea at the moment is to use them to create tension that can be resolved to nice effect, and overall lead the melody more specifically. I've never really liked the idea of slapping a weird chord in the mix for spice. I'm more interested in more controlled and reasoned usage of "outside notes". This paragraph turned out real vague, so I'll try to be more specific.

I've always been one for basics, I like to learn the foundations thoroughly and then discover and experiment on my own. I have very little experience on altered chords in jazz comping, so even the most vanilla use of them will interest me a lot. If I had to pick a subject, at the moment I'm most interested in proper jazz comping where the guitarist improvises constantly instead of just following the chords on the chart, so if you have anything to say about altered chords in chordal improv I'm all ears.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#6
1. What's the deal with 11 chords anyway?

A true 11 chord contains both a 3rd and an 11. These only really show up on chords with a b3rd. This is because the 3rd of major harmonies clashes with the 11 and ruins harmonic clarity/function. To use an 11 on a major chord, we either:

1. Make the 11 a sus4 , replacing the 3rd (for a Dom7)

2. Make the 11 a #11, replacing the 5th (for maj7)

So we are left with these options:

m11 = C Eb G Bb D F

m7b5 (11) = C Eb Gb Bb D F (I LOVE this chord btw )

7sus4/9sus4 = C F G Bb (D)

Maj7#11/Maj9#11 = C E F# B (D)

-Those are all possible 'true' 11 chords. There are two exceptions to this:

1. An 'add11' chord, like C E G F. Doesn't count, because the 11 is most likely used melodically and not as a chord tone, i.e., for color. Alternatively, this is an inverted hybrid, C/F, and not an 11 at all.

2. Dim7(11) = C Eb Gb Bbb (A) F. This doesn't count because of the symmetrical nature of the chord, this is more accurately a Dim7 with UNT's (upper neighbor tones)

2. Why 6 and not b6 on m6 chords?

Because adding a b6 changes the chord.

Cm(addb6) = C Eb G Ab = Abmaj7/C

Using natural 6 keeps the chord an actual Cm.

Also: Look at how the chords are related. Cm7 is the III of Ab, and III is most often used as a sub for I. That's why you don't often see them. Or, you do see Cm(b6) often. But that chord is just called Abmaj7.

3. What's the deal with m6 vs m13?

m13 chords are only found in large modal type harmonies. The reason for this is because the presence of a 13 or 6 on a minor chord "blows" the progression.

Dm13 = D F A C E G B

Re-order those a bit, and there's a blatant G7 hiding in there. Since Dm7 usually wants to II-V to G7, you've effectively blown the II-V by playing the destination chord inside the first chord. Bye bye harmonic clarity. None of this matters modally, so stick the m13s everywhere when it's Dorian time.

But in tonal world, save the 6's for I or IVm7 and throw the 13's far away.

4. Is the 6 just a decoration compared to 13?

The 6 is not going to actually behave like a 13. Where a 13 tightens up the function specifically, the 6 is going to soften things up, and make the chord resolutions less intense and 'terminal' due to the lack of 7ths.

Compare these 4 progressions, and the effect of 6 vs 13 should become obvious:

Dm7 - G6 - C6 = The dominant isn't that strong, soft resolution

Dm7 - G6 - Cmaj7 = The resolution is almost as tense as the dominant

Dm7 - G13 - C6 = Big setup, soft ending

Dm7 - G13 - Cmaj7 = Nice and powerful all around
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#7
This is a cool thread.

I'd like to add that you have the infamous augmented 6th chord series.

They are 6th chords with a function. Perhaps jet wants to elaborate on those

Edit;

These types are more classical, is this thread jazz only?

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jul 21, 2015,
#8
5. How do I deal with extended harmony and use it for myself?

-Good question. The first principle comes in realizing that we can extend most chords naturally. The easiest place to conceptualize this is the dominant chord. Let's take a II-V:

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

Now, if I wanted to naturally extend that dominant, I'd use notes from where it belongs, the key of C major. Stacking those 3rds gives me G B D F A C E Look at all these options:

G7 -> G9, G13, G7sus4, G9sus4, G13sus4

So, there's 6 chords I can pop in for the G7 slot without leaving vanilla world.

Now look at this:

Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm7

What happens if we want to extend that dominant naturally? What scale do we use?

If you guess C Harmonic Minor, nice job. Remember, the natural state of V7 in a minor key is Harmonic minor. Stacking 3rds yields G B D F Ab C E, and gives us:

G7 (minor key) -> G7b9, G7(b13), G7(b9 b13) G7sus4, G(b9sus4)*

*Throw this out, it's more of a MM thing.

So look, more chords for G7, these ones have b9 and b13 on them. So now we can draw a conclusion about the nature of some notes:

-Natural 9's and 13's are from a major key and want to go to a major chord. Altered 9ths and 13ths are from a minor key and want to go to a minor chord.

So, now that we know these expectations, let's screw with them:

Dm7 - G7(b9 b13) - Cmaj7

How cool is that? Not the most outside sound, but we've successfully chromatically altered a chord, and still no reharmonizing. Now, brace your ears for the reverse:

Dm7b5 - G13 - Cm7

That was probably much less pleasant. Oh well, I like it, it's good enough for Duke

So, by only using natural extensions, we've identified that we can play all manner of harmonies over G7. But we can keep going. We can shade G7 with the altered scale and max out the tension on the chord:

G7(full alt) = G Ab Bb Cb(B) Db Eb F = 1 b9 #9 3 #11(b5) b13 7

This leads us to a new conclusion: b9 and #9 are brothers. Anywhere b9 works, so will his older, more dissonant brother #9.

So all those b9 chords from before, go ahead and slap a #9 on there if you want, there's another slew of harmonies to goof with.

So, this leaves us with one alteration left, the almighty #11. Even though #11 is found in the altered scale, it's closer to a b5 in that palette. The ACTUAL home of #11 is Lydian Dominant, the vanilla scale for tritone subbed dominants. So if you recall:

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 = Normal G7 motion

Abm7 - G7 - Gbmaj7 = SubV G7 motion

That second G7 is going to be derived from Lydian Dominant (the reason for this is due to voice leading considerations when swapping the tritone, but that's beyond the scope of this post), and want a #11, as naturally found in the scale. Lydian dominants give us this series of extensions:

G B D F A C# E = 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13

So we extract the final principle of expectation:

-A #11 implies that we aren't resolving that dominant down a fifth, like most dominants.

Ergo:

Dm7 - G9#11 - Not C.

Dm7 - G13(b9) - Probably C

Again, we can play with these expectations, and do things like this.

Abm7 - G7#11 - Cmaj7

Dm7 - G13 - Gbmaj7

^This last part is going to become a very big deal why improvising reharmonizations.

So, here's where we take it to the next level:

Up until now, we've avoided cross-pollinating our extensions. For example the major scale would give us both a natural 13 and 9, while a harmonic minor scale give us b9 and 13.

What if we mixed them up? What happens?

We get sounds like 13(b9), 13(#9), 9(b13) and any other combination you can think of. These dominants are going to have some problems though. They are going to be ambiguous, due to the conflicting expectations. For example, the 13 wanting to go to major, and the #9 and #11 saying otherwise.

Dm7 - G13 - Probably C

Dm7 - G7#5 (#9 #11 13) - Who the hell knows? We don't.

And we won't until the resolution. These dominants with mixed extensions belong to the more esoteric scales, like HW, Hmaj, and Whole Tone (finally a REAL #5 ), and are thus harder to use cleanly.

Just keep in mind these basic principles for dominant chords:

1. Natural numbers = major.
2. Flat numbers = Minor
3. #11 = Tritone Sub
4. b9 + #9 are BFFs

If you keep them separate, you'll have totally clean dominants and won't need to worry about the more exotic scales.

This process works exactly the same for all other chord types, you just need to be cognizant of harmonic clarity and expectations if you plan on chromatically extending. For example, natural 11 on maj7 chords is a no go, and #11 is going to imply it isn't the I chord, etc.

That's how you do it, I won't go more in depth yet.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
+6 chords:

In classical music, where everything is based out counterpoint and voice leading, we have chords called augmented 6th chords. They look like this In C major:

Italian: Ab C F#

French: Ab C D F#

German: Ab C Eb F#

If you notice, these look like horrifically spelled versions of Ab7(no5), Ab7#11, and Ab7.

Here's the thing. In jazz and 'vertical' music, +6 chords DO NOT EXIST. In classical and horizontal music, Tritone subs don't exist. We're crossing wires and using terminology that doesn't necessarily apply to the situation. So:

In classical, Ab C Eb F# is Ger+6 in C major.

In jazz, Ab C Eb Gb(spelling) is SubV7/V in Cmajor.

Now, it's not necessarily that they don't exist, clearly (apart from the spelling and name) they are the same chord.

The problem lies in that each analysis is useless in the other context. Calling Ab7 a Ger+6 tells me nothing about what to do with it in jazzland, and calling Ab7 a subV7/V gives me no insight into its place in a classical composition.

And never the two shall meet.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#10
I need to read this through tomorrow, I'll sleep with a quick glance for now. I love these names though, cool chords do it with ten characters.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#11
^Well you don't (read: can't) play the full blown 13 chord. Guitar problems. Those are just the theoretical constructs. I voice my 13 chords as 3 7 9 13.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#12
I know, I know And that voicing is what I'd use as well. (Thanks to your last JTJ.)
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#13
Quote by Jet Penguin
^Well you don't (read: can't) play the full blown 13 chord. Guitar problems. Those are just the theoretical constructs. I voice my 13 chords as 3 7 9 13.


I can play full blown 13th chords. And maj13, maj13b11, maj13b9, 13b11#9, etc.

All of the full blown 13s.

Actually, I can play synthetic chords with more than 7 tones and chords with microtones too.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Jul 21, 2015,
#14
Quote by The4thHorsemen
Something I was wondering the other day and forgot about til now.

With X6 chords and Xm6 chords you use a major 6th. I was wondering why for instance Cm6 has an A instead of Ab - I'm guessing it's just convention to make things easier, like how if you don't specify major 7 it's assumed to be a minor 7th.
Yes. The major 6th is a much more consonant addition than a minor 6th, on both triads, so it would be more common. So the plain "6" is used to indicate it, on the same principle that the common minor 7 is called "7".

The b6 is an example of the notorious jazz "avoid note" concept, whereby extensions a half-step above chord tones tend to be avoided, because they produce confusing dissonances. (The accent being on "tend to"- it's a rule that is often broken, not least in the common 7b9 chord.)
Quote by The4thHorsemen

What would you call a chord with an added b6? I could see Cmb6, but the major variation would have to be in parenthesis I guess, like C(b6)? Are these chords not as unheard of as I thought and I just haven't run into them for whatever reason?
A b6 on a major chord would only occur naturally in one instance: V in a minor key. If used, the 5th would probably be omitted, meaning the b6 becomes (in effect) a #5.
On a minor chord, a b6 turns it into an inverted maj7 chord. Cmb6 = Abmaj7.
(The m2 dissonance between maj7 and root is acceptable in that case, at least if voiced 5-7-1-3.)
Quote by The4thHorsemen

Also, am I right in thinking that with any 6 chord (and maybe other add type chords) the added note is more of a decoration and doesn't have as much impact on the function since they don't have the 7ths and such?
True.
A 6th is a common addition on a major chord - as an alternative to maj7 (I or IV) when the melody is the root; because of the "avoid note" risk of the b9 between maj7 and high root (more objectionable than an m2 in the middle of a 5-7-1-3 voicing).
So that's where you'll commonly see 6 chords in jazz charts (for the older standards at least): as a final tonic chord, where the melody is also the tonic.

I'm sure JP will have better thoughts about this...
#15
^JP beat ya to it, but yes, you're dead on. Especially about 6 being a more stable sub for maj7.

What most people don't realize is that their precious 'avoid notes' are just what we classical nut jobs call 'suspensions'.

It's not a note to avoid, but a dissonance to be resolved.

P.S. Theo I meant on guitar where you can only play 4 notes at once with any sort of consistent reliability.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#16
Quote by Jet Penguin
P.S. Theo I meant on guitar where you can only play 4 notes at once with any sort of consistent reliability.


Oh, I know what you meant.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#17
Quote by Jet Penguin
^JP beat ya to it
So you did. I should read previous posts in entirety rather than just glancing at the first few paragraphs.....
Quote by Jet Penguin

What most people don't realize is that their precious 'avoid notes' are just what we classical nut jobs call 'suspensions'.

It's not a note to avoid, but a dissonance to be resolved.
As I understand it, the "avoid note" principle is when the lower note (chord tone) is still in the chord.
IOW, the 4th on a major chord is perfectly fine as a suspension when the 3rd is omitted. It's a tension, of course, but a mild and pleasant one, which often doesn't even need resolving (thanks to modal jazz and familiarity with quartal harmony?). It's when the M3 is still in the chord, the octave below the 4 (11), that you get the nasty b9 interval, making the 11 sound like a note you don't want - at least not as a sustained chord extension.
Melodically it's still fine, because the b9 dissonance is passing.

- pretty much as you explain in your post #6, IOW. Just wanted to iron out that distinction.

The "avoid note" is not a note at all. It's an interval, specifically the minor 9th between a chord tone and an extension. It can be "avoided" by omitting either note (bottom or top of the m9).
(There are special reasons why it's OK in a 7b9 chord, which I can guess at, and you can probably describe better than me.)
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 22, 2015,
#18
Quote by Kevätuhri
I'm just curious about the way altered chords are most commonly used, anything from the simplest "tricks" to actual, in depth application. I guess my idea at the moment is to use them to create tension that can be resolved to nice effect, and overall lead the melody more specifically. I've never really liked the idea of slapping a weird chord in the mix for spice. I'm more interested in more controlled and reasoned usage of "outside notes". This paragraph turned out real vague, so I'll try to be more specific.

I've always been one for basics, I like to learn the foundations thoroughly and then discover and experiment on my own. I have very little experience on altered chords in jazz comping, so even the most vanilla use of them will interest me a lot. If I had to pick a subject, at the moment I'm most interested in proper jazz comping where the guitarist improvises constantly instead of just following the chords on the chart, so if you have anything to say about altered chords in chordal improv I'm all ears.

The basics and foundations in jazz is the ii-V-I in major keys. Or iim7b5-V-i in minor. The altered tones you add on to the V as you please.

All with good taste though.
#19
Quote by Kevätuhri
I'm just curious about the way altered chords are most commonly used, anything from the simplest "tricks" to actual, in depth application. I guess my idea at the moment is to use them to create tension that can be resolved to nice effect, and overall lead the melody more specifically. I've never really liked the idea of slapping a weird chord in the mix for spice. I'm more interested in more controlled and reasoned usage of "outside notes". This paragraph turned out real vague, so I'll try to be more specific.

I've always been one for basics, I like to learn the foundations thoroughly and then discover and experiment on my own. I have very little experience on altered chords in jazz comping, so even the most vanilla use of them will interest me a lot. If I had to pick a subject, at the moment I'm most interested in proper jazz comping where the guitarist improvises constantly instead of just following the chords on the chart, so if you have anything to say about altered chords in chordal improv I'm all ears.
The purpose of altering a chord is to provide chromatic voice-leading - to go up or down a half-step to a chord tone on the next chord (or sometimes to the 6th or 9th on that chord).
The "trick" - if it is one - is as simple as that.

It doesn't have to be a direct resolution, straight from alteration on last beat of first chord to chord tone on beat 1 of next chord. It can be delayed, or a few alterations might be grouped in a phrase, with resolution implied (as the new chord is heard) rather than being overtly stated.
But the alterations always (in my experience) have that purpose.
As well the half-step to the next chord, they often make half-step moves from the previous chord too. Eg, A-Ab-G over Dm7-G7b9-C. (That line could run the other way over the same 3 chords: G-G#-A.)
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 22, 2015,
#20
Well, that's all information I knew already, so maybe I'm not looking at the basics after all.

Let's see where the thread goes, inspiring information is bound to show up. We need more good questions
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#21
Quote by Kevätuhri
Well, that's all information I knew already, so maybe I'm not looking at the basics after all.
OK!
I'd also be interested if there's anything else to know about altered chords. (I mean beyond making what's simple unnecessarily complicated... )
#22
Quote by Kevätuhri
Well, that's all information I knew already, so maybe I'm not looking at the basics after all.

Let's see where the thread goes, inspiring information is bound to show up. We need more good questions


So you're looking to improve your comping? Triads in every voicing you can find, all over the fretboard.

I wrote a good post on drop voicings for maj7, m7, 7 and m7b5 a long time ago. Will post it if I find it.
#23
Quote by mdc
So you're looking to improve your comping? Triads in every voicing you can find, all over the fretboard.

I wrote a good post on drop voicings for maj7, m7, 7 and m7b5 a long time ago. Will post it if I find it.


Cool, sounds like an interesting read. And yes, I'm trying to get from the basic jazz comping that goes by the chart to a more improvised approach. Even though I'm a somewhat advanced guitarist in a lot of other areas, I haven't come across chord improv before I got into jazz. And now that I'm getting pretty good at basic comping and melodic improvisation, I'd like to practice advanced comping more.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#24
Not trying to put you off or anything, but the best tip I ever read about comping was that it's not really about the harmony at all. Its about the rhythm.
#25
Well, there's nothing wrong with my sense of rhythm, I have years of experience in rhythm guitar in various genres. So that just leaves the harmony to spice things up, right?
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#26
Quote by Kevätuhri
Well, there's nothing wrong with my sense of rhythm, I have years of experience in rhythm guitar in various genres. So that just leaves the harmony to spice things up, right?
Right. Just to clarify, I meant something beyond just having a good sense of rhythm. It's about treating comping as a kind of rhythmic punctuation, accent patterns: when you play being more important than what you play.

The idea (and sorry I can't remember the source of this) is that the soloist knows the chord progression already. They don't need the comper to remind them. (The idea that comping is about hinting at the chords - eg running through the guide tones - is a hangover from my old jazz lessons. Personally I do quite like to hear guide tone lines when I'm comping, but that's because I'm not always as confident of the chords as I'd like to be....)

I guess the truth is that different soloists like different kinds of comping. Some may like plenty of harmonic information coming their way (including imaginative reharmonisations); some may like no harmony at all in the comping (bass and/or drums alone may be their ideal scenario). Others will want something in between.
Some will want clear indications of the rhythm (including plenty of inspiring accents and syncopations), some will want none. Others will like a mixture.

I think what governs it is that the soloist leads. It's not up to the comper to be "interesting" (that's the soloist's job), but to provide whatever backing the soloist needs - to support and inspire, without stepping on their toes or distracting attention from what they're doing.
IMO, extended harmony would normally play little or no part in that.

However, there's a different scenario, where comping can turn into a dialogue, a joint solo with the lead player. That's a matter of agreement of course.
When I'm soloing, I know I don't normally want my comper to play "interesting" chords (stay outa my face!), while interesting rhythms would usually be welcome. But other times, I might enjoy flinging a few harmonic ideas back and forth in a joint improvisation.

So yes - the kind of "spiced up" harmony you're talking about is absolutely worth knowing; but generally to be saved for special occasions (IMHO).
#27
^It's about both and neither. It's about dialogue, and about cadence and melody. And Listening.

I move with my soloist. It's a dialogue.
If he's playing typical blues licks I'm going to play typical harmonies.We need to talk about the same subject.

If they aren't playing a lot I'm going to fill the space. We can't have a conversation both talking at once.

If they go completely off the rails and start playing totally free I'm going to shred my ass off underneath. We're a team; it's a duet.

But to answer Kevat, step 1 is extending the chords that are on the page, reharm comes later.

Jong: Yeah the harmonic avoid note is often defined as a m2 above a chord tone, thus creating an "unavailable" diatonic tension, but this is a massive generalization. It's mostly about harmonic clarity, and the only real destroyer of that is maj3rd+11. Otherwise we're just looking at suspensions. b9 works because it doesn't destroy clarity.


Anyway, dunno if you guys read my super long post attempting to answer Kevat's question, but let me know how that helps and where it leaves you and we can springboard off of it.

Also, I'm planning on doing like a "Tune Survival" soon, where we can break down charts in more detail. I figure we can do one of each back to back, so we can take what we talk about here and apply it to there.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#28
Quote by Jet Penguin
^It's about both and neither. It's about dialogue, and about cadence and melody. And Listening.

I move with my soloist. It's a dialogue.
If he's playing typical blues licks I'm going to play typical harmonies.We need to talk about the same subject.

If they aren't playing a lot I'm going to fill the space. We can't have a conversation both talking at once.

If they go completely off the rails and start playing totally free I'm going to shred my ass off underneath. We're a team; it's a duet.
The only thing I disagree with there is "If they aren't playing a lot I'm going to fill the space".

Sometimes I might, but I'd always be cautious about it. (I know when I solo, I sometimes like to leave spaces, and don't always want a response there. If I play minimally, I expect at least as much minimalism in the comping.)

As I see it, it's not a dialogue so much as a speech with interjections. The soloist "has the floor", but the rest of the band make comments, heckle, agree or object, or toss in other ideas (encouraging if possible ). But not enough to take the spotlight off the soloist or to grab the mic, as it were.
IOW, the soloist has his/her ideas about the piece that they want to get across, and be allowed to develop. If the comper has different ideas - they can wait until their own solo!

That said, the best jazz is often when the group are improvising in a joint conversation, where there is less distinction (or none) between soloist and accompaniment.
There should always be an opening for that to happen if the mood goes that way.
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 22, 2015,
#29
Oh exactly. It's not like every pause in the solo is filled with 32nd note guitar runs.

I don't fill 100% of the space that they leave, but I'm sure to pop something in during a pause, even if it's just two notes, or a slap or something.

Sometimes I don't, and just leave it empty. I've definitely comped solos and played nothing the entire time.

I'm just talking general contours of ideas as far as the context of supporting the soloist goes.

Otherwise it's them talking and me just silently nodding, which is not the most engaging conversation
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#30
I read it and it was very helpful, still have to internalize it though.

And Jong, yes, I understand that Idea, I use rhythm as a major factor in a lot of my own compositions, and I deliberately write simple passages that influence purely through rhythm. I listen to a lot of rhythm-based music. Just keep in mind that I'm a pretty good guitarist too (and that I'm not even a jazz guitarist per say), and I ask questions about things that I feel will benefit me, I feel that knowing my way around extended and altered harmony will benefit chord melodies and voice leading a lot. I'm not looking at "interesting chords", I did mention that I'm looking for a more sophisticated approach to use than just extending a chord for lols, instead I feel like extended harmony would be a great tool to make the progression flow more evenly. I'd even say that certain extended voicings make the changes less interesting, but a lot smoother, which is a useful skill as well.

But I appreciate all feedback, all of you, Jet and mdc included have given a lot of great advice. I guess I'm just really bad at asking the right questions. It's really tricky to tell how skilled nameless people on the forums are, and both overestimating and underestimating advice are inevitable. It's all appreciated though
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#31
Quote by Jet Penguin
Oh exactly. It's not like every pause in the solo is filled with 32nd note guitar runs.

I don't fill 100% of the space that they leave, but I'm sure to pop something in during a pause, even if it's just two notes, or a slap or something.

Sometimes I don't, and just leave it empty. I've definitely comped solos and played nothing the entire time.

I'm just talking general contours of ideas as far as the context of supporting the soloist goes.

Otherwise it's them talking and me just silently nodding, which is not the most engaging conversation
No, but if what they're saying is interesting enough, then nodding silently may be the best response. Sometimes all you want to say to a soloist is "uh-huh", or "amen" - and even that may be superfluous. Other times, sure, it's "yeah yeah, but what about...."
#32
^So keeping in mind everything we just talked about, what's the next question?
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#33
Quote by Jet Penguin
2. Why 6 and not b6 on m6 chords?

Because adding a b6 changes the chord.

Cm(addb6) = C Eb G Ab = Abmaj7/C

Using natural 6 keeps the chord an actual Cm.

Also: Look at how the chords are related. Cm7 is the III of Ab, and III is most often used as a sub for I. That's why you don't often see them. Or, you do see Cm(b6) often. But that chord is just called Abmaj7.


I was thinking in a case like where the key is C minor and the "Cmb6" is played in a place where the the progression is acting like the C would go, but I was just thinking it. Just now when I played it it either has a suspended sort of sound and the b6 wants to either go down to the 5th or up to the major 6 to resolve that tension or else it sounds like a deceptive cadence where you went to the bVI instead of the tonic and put the tonic in the bass, depending on voicing.

I guess in the major chord with b6 context it's basically treated the same as any other tense note - some people may call it an avoid note, but to me it just wants to resolve like any other dissonant note.


Quote by The4thHorsemen
Also, am I right in thinking that with any 6 chord (and maybe other add type chords) the added note is more of a decoration and doesn't have as much impact on the function since they don't have the 7ths and such?


Quote by jongtr
True.
A 6th is a common addition on a major chord - as an alternative to maj7 (I or IV) when the melody is the root; because of the "avoid note" risk of the b9 between maj7 and high root (more objectionable than an m2 in the middle of a 5-7-1-3 voicing).
So that's where you'll commonly see 6 chords in jazz charts (for the older standards at least): as a final tonic chord, where the melody is also the tonic.

I'm sure JP will have better thoughts about this...

Quote by Jet Penguin
Is the 6 just a decoration compared to 13?

The 6 is not going to actually behave like a 13. Where a 13 tightens up the function specifically, the 6 is going to soften things up, and make the chord resolutions less intense and 'terminal' due to the lack of 7ths.

Compare these 4 progressions, and the effect of 6 vs 13 should become obvious:

Dm7 - G6 - C6 = The dominant isn't that strong, soft resolution

Dm7 - G6 - Cmaj7 = The resolution is almost as tense as the dominant

Dm7 - G13 - C6 = Big setup, soft ending

Dm7 - G13 - Cmaj7 = Nice and powerful all around


Ok, so I was thinking basically the right thing, though I could have worded it better. Basically if you extend instead of add (include the 7th) it has a stronger resolution, where just adding the 6 has a softer sound, almost like just using the basic triads, but with a little more harmonic substance.



On a related note, a major chord with a b6 almost has an augmented sound to it, which makes sense since it's basically an augmented triad with an extra note. What would you call this voicing xx5554 (G C E Ab)? Anything interesting of note about it? Potential uses?

I don't know if it really pertains to this thread, but what about augmented chords in general? I'm thinking they have a kind of dominant sound, and it seems like I've seen mention of using the whole tone scale with certain dominants or something along those lines. What's the deal with chords with whole tone scale properties and does my brain's weird half formed relation of these concepts have a basis in reality? I'm thinking Jet may have covered whole tone stuff in another thread, but I can't remember.
#34
Hm, so is there some type of guide as to what tones get dropped in extended chords? I read in here that thirds and sevenths are the essential intervals in a chord (at least for guitar the bass should be covering the root to some extent, perhaps the fifth as well), but besides that... say for a G13, I could play 3x345x or something, omitting 5, 9, and 11. Same for Gmaj13, 3x445. For Gm11, 3x331x, omitting 5 and 9.

Is it usually just the 5 and odd scale degrees that:
- are higher than 7 and
- are not the terminating number (in a dom 13 chord, the 13)
that are excluded?
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#35
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Hm, so is there some type of guide as to what tones get dropped in extended chords? I read in here that thirds and sevenths are the essential intervals in a chord (at least for guitar the bass should be covering the root to some extent, perhaps the fifth as well), but besides that... say for a G13, I could play 3x345x or something, omitting 5, 9, and 11. Same for Gmaj13, 3x445. For Gm11, 3x331x, omitting 5 and 9.

Is it usually just the 5 and odd scale degrees that:
- are higher than 7 and
- are not the terminating number (in a dom 13 chord, the 13)
that are excluded?


If you're playing a G13, I would play the 3,b7,9 and 13. The 9 substitutes the 1 and the 13 substitutes the 5. But it can depend on context, you can put the 1 in at some point if you are playing with only one other person.
#36
Quote by GoldenGuitar
If you're playing a G13, I would play the 3,b7,9 and 13. The 9 substitutes the 1 and the 13 substitutes the 5. But it can depend on context, you can put the 1 in at some point if you are playing with only one other person.
I guess you're using "substitutes" in a different sense from the usual concept of chord substitution...

1-3-7b-13 will give the functional essence of the 13 chord. The 9 and 5 are optional (just fill the sound out), and the root can be left out if a bassist is playing it - and sometimes even if not. I.e., the notes B-F-E (or F-B-E) may well be enough, in most contexts, to signal "G13".
#37
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Hm, so is there some type of guide as to what tones get dropped in extended chords? I read in here that thirds and sevenths are the essential intervals in a chord (at least for guitar the bass should be covering the root to some extent, perhaps the fifth as well), but besides that... say for a G13, I could play 3x345x or something, omitting 5, 9, and 11. Same for Gmaj13, 3x445. For Gm11, 3x331x, omitting 5 and 9.

Is it usually just the 5 and odd scale degrees that:
- are higher than 7 and
- are not the terminating number (in a dom 13 chord, the 13)
that are excluded?
Pretty much, yes.

A perfect 5th supports the root, acoustically, but doesn't really do anything else useful. (Supporting the root can be handy in a sus chord.) An altered 5th should usually be included, of course.

The 9th (in an 11 or 13 chord) simply fills out the texture a little, without changing the chord's function or nature (and sometimes you don't want the texture filled out...). Again, an altered 9th is different, and should be included if applicable. (Look out for voice-leading moves.)

The 11 should always be omitted from a 13 chord anyway, because of the clash with the major 3rd below. (A chord symbol like "G11" is therefore shorthand for G7sus4 with an optional 9th.)

Sometimes a #11 can be included in a 13 (or maj13) chord, but it will usually be mentioned in the symbol if so. Sometimes you can assume a #11, if the "13" chord is resolving down a half-step (to minor or major) or up a whole step (to major) - because non-V dom7s are typically lydian dominant. You still don't need to put it in though.
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 23, 2015,
#38
Quote by NeoMvsEu
For Gm11, 3x331x, omitting 5 and 9.

It depends on how you treat the chord. It could be the ii in F major, the iii in Eb major or the vi in Bb major.

Each of those keys presents a different set of triads which you can use to superimpose, thus creating different sounds, tensions.
#39
@GG: I don't understand the rationale of your substitutions. Keep in mind that I have no jazz background.

Same to mdc. Elaborate and explain?
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#40
Quote by jongtr
I guess you're using "substitutes" in a different sense from the usual concept of chord substitution...

I guess "replace" with be a more appropriate word here, sorry for a potential misunderstanding.


@ Neo: I guess you'll have to explain how you see it first, it'll make it easier for me to explain the rationale behind it.
Last edited by GoldenGuitar at Jul 23, 2015,
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