#1
Hi there,

because I am having problems with finding the rhythmn on Rammstein - Ich Tu Dir Weh, I started kind of learn the song "from scratch" just with notes. I think that this is a 3/4 time and its played with sixteenth notes throughout the song.

What confuses me is that its counted with eighth notes instead of sixteenth. And if I play it as if that are sixteenth anyway, I get to the point with the metronome where I can clearly hear the rythm is wrong. Like on the Metronome it goes

"One(Open Strings) .(Palm) and(Open) .(palm) Two(palm) .(palm) and(Open) .(Palm) Three(Open) .(Palm) and(Palm) .(Palm)

But in the song I hear clearly the Guitar is doing the open strings already before the drums do the open "and"'s

I have no clue if its even possible for you to understand what I mean the way I try to explain it xD

So there are two problems:
Why are there Eighth notes displayed instead of Eighteenth notes,
and how am I supposed to count that?

So if anybody could help me, I would be very thankful

Here are the Notes:
https://www.jellynote.com/en/sheet-music-tabs/rammstein/ich-tu-dir-weh/51371d540be5870de27da48c#tabs:%23score_A
Last edited by Thison at Jul 25, 2015,
#2
It says "c", as in common time, or 4/4, in the tab you posted, but everything is in triplets.

Ergo, the time signature is actually the compound 12/8. Emphases shown by capitalization:

ONE two three Four five six Sev eight nine Ten elv tw

In the beginning, before the 3-on-4 is established, it does sound like 3/4:

ONE two Three four Five six SEV eight Nine ten Elv tw

But if you count


ONE two three Four five six Sev   eight nine Ten  elv tw
One and a     Two  and  a   Three and   a    Four and a


throughout the song, you get:


e|-------------------------|-------------------------|
B|-------------------------|-------------------------|
G|-------------------------|-------------------------|
D|-------------------------|-------------------------|
A|-0---0-------0---0-------|-0---0-------5-3-0-6-5-3-|
D|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-|-0-0-0-0-0-0-5-3-0-6-5-3-|
p p p p p p p p p p p p
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 e w 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 e w
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Jul 25, 2015,
#3
Wow thanks alot, I think I really got it finally^^

So I could simply count triplets like
e|-------------------------|-------------------------|
B|-------------------------|-------------------------|
G|-------------------------|-------------------------|
D|-------------------------|-------------------------|
A|-0---0-------0---0-------|-0---0-------5-3-0-6-5-3-|
D|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-|-0-0-0-0-0-0-5-3-0-6-5-3-|
     p   p p p   p   p p p     p   p p p
   1 a . 2 a . 3 a . 4 a .   1 a . 2 a . 3 a . 4 a .
#4
Yeah pretty much ^^ 12/8 is basically 4/4 with a triplet feel.

Happy playing!
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#5
Roughly speaking, when guys are going to play a tune, they already know whether it has a triplet (compound time, "shuffle") feel to it, or not, or if its in cut-time (e.g. 2/2 for some S.American styles).

Then when the drummer counts in, that count is nearly always measuring a dotted quarter note (for compound time), a half note (cut-time mostly), or quarter note for anything else. The drummer won't be counting in eighth notes, sixteenth notes etc.

Compound time originates where the number of beats in the time signature is some multiple of 3, other than 3 itself (so, 9/8, 12/8, 15/16 ...). Regardless of the note value (the lower number in the time sig), the drummer will, if we want to play this in compound time (i.e. with triplet feel), count in using the dotted quarter notes. There are 3 eighth notes (or 6 sixteenths) covering the same duration as one dotted quarter note.

So, for 9/8, 15/8, 18/8 ..., you would count by groups of 3 eighth notes as NeoMysEu has pointed out

9/8: 1 a . 2 a . 3 a .
15/8: 1 a . 2 a . 3 a . 4 a . 5 a .
18/8: 1 a . 2 a . 3 a . 4 a . 5 a . 6 a .

However, these days, time signatuires like above may get counted differently (broken into different groupings), for different rhythmic effects.

e.g. 9/8 may get broken into 4 and 5 1/8th notes ... now we're not in compound time ... drummer counts in the tempo of the quarter note, so you could effectively play the following over one bar.

1 & 2 & 1& 2& 3

or 1& 2& 3 1 & 2 &

(I've restart the count back to 1 to show how the grouping occurs)

Then finally, it's up to you what you're actually going to play against that. For example, you may be just providing a metal chug on say an E power chord and play like this:

E - E - E E - E -
1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 &

There's lot of other ways to count this as well.

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jul 26, 2015,
#6
Things should be counted simply as even groupings (not 2/4/6, but 2/3/4) unless there is reason to think otherwise.

9/8:
[ONE two] [Three four] [Five six] [Seven eight nine] is simply 2+2+2+3
[ONE two] [Three four five] [Six seven] [Eight nine] is 2+3+2+2

leaving the riff example to sound like:


E - E - E E - E -
1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

I can understand [# & # & # & # & #:||] and [# & # & # # & # &:||], but these, especially the second, are a lot more jarring. And this thread was asking about a compound time example, not odd time (5, 7, 11. Technically, these are primes ).

As for compound time, dotted quarter makes no sense in the context of 15/16. Dotted quarter gives 2/5 of a measure. The drummer should be giving a count-in based on a dotted eighth, not a dotted quarter.

Basically, a dotted rhythm dictates the time in compound signatures, but the dotted "thing" is twice the length of the time signature's denominator.

-> 3n/8, n≥2 => dotted quarter (1/8*2 = 1/4)
-> 3n/16, n≥2 => dotted eighth (1/16*2 = 1/8)
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Jul 26, 2015,
#7
Hi NeoMvsEu.

There are often times when groups of 2s and 3s may not be counted as such, depending on genre. Obviously gives a different effect.

The duration of a dotted note value is 1.5 times the duration of the undotted note value, not twice.

e.g if note value is quarter note (same duration as two eight notes), then dotted quarter note has same duration as three eighth notes.

In 9/8 compound, the beat is a dotted quarter note (what sets the tempo, the click) ... hence we get 3 eighth notes per click for 9/8.

cheers, Jerry
#8
The thing that gets the dot is twice the denominator value. The dot just makes the thing three times the denominator length.

3n/d = compound time signature, n≥2
1/d = note that gets the beat
2/d = 2*length of note that gets beat.
(dot) = note*1.5 length.
(2/d)*(dot)=(2/d)*(3/2)=3/d = 3*note length

Neither evaluation is wrong (except for when 3n/16 gets a dotted quarter assigned to it), it just approaches the question from a different standpoint.

For the first thing, that's why I said "unless there is reason to think otherwise".
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#9
Counting the rhythm is simple a way of "verbalising" rhythm with numbers polus selected characters like: +, e, uh. Saying the rhythm with rhythmisation verbalises rhythms with syllables made up of consonants (d, b, s, p, t, k) and vowels (e,u,o,a,i). Vowels indicate duration (whole, half, quarter, eighth and sixteenth respectively) and consonants indicate attack (strong, weak or silent).
12/8 and 4/4 are distinctly different in rhythmisation: doa boa doa boa (versus do bo do bo respectively). Doa verbalises a dotted quarter note which then subdivides into dababa (or three 8th notes).
So in a doa boa doa boa meter, each beat can also be verbalised as dababa dababa dababa dababa. Notice that in dababa, a d-syllable indicates a strong event while any b- event indicates a weak event. Being able to track these strong weak alternations makes verbalised rhythms easy to "count".