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#1
hey guys I recently bought the per nilsson scar guitar dvd and there's a bunch of really cool scales in there. one being the Symmetrical Diminished scale or half/whole scale. I was just wondering if you guys had any cool suggestions for chords it could work over. I see you can build a few triads from there, i've tried it over a diminished chord and it sounded cool, also a dom7 chord, but can you use it over a maj triad?
#3
Quote by enloartworks
hey guys I recently bought the per nilsson scar guitar dvd and there's a bunch of really cool scales in there. one being the Symmetrical Diminished scale or half/whole scale. I was just wondering if you guys had any cool suggestions for chords it could work over. I see you can build a few triads from there, i've tried it over a diminished chord and it sounded cool, also a dom7 chord, but can you use it over a maj triad?


Try it and see!

Remember dominant is a function (V), not just a chord quality. When resolving dominants to minor tonic chords (V i), you have a lot of options. Diminished could work, just depends how "out" you want to sound.

Dim scales also contain enough notes that you can almost find other scales inside them, so you can use parts of the scale without it sounding really dissonant.
#4
^Not to mention the truckload of triads and 7th chords "hiding" in a WH/HW scale.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#5
would it work if resolving to a majr chord as well?
@jet Penguin yeah i'm starting to notice that it's quite interesting

can you guys expand on the whole diminished concept, i've noticed that I can use dim chords to replace Dominant chords at times but i do it mostly by ear, is there a theory behind this?
#6
Look at the notes of the scale and see what chords it has in it.

Let's take the D HW diminished scale.

D Eb F F# Ab A B C

Of course it will work over the D diminished 7th chord (and the enharmonic equivalents of it - Fdim7, G#dim7 and Bdim7), but it also includes the following triads:

D major
D minor
F major
F minor
Ab major
Ab minor
B major
B minor

So both minor and major triads built on the notes of the diminished arpeggio.

You may also want to check out what kind of 7th/extended chords you can build with the notes.

Some chords you can build with it:

Ddim7
Dm7
Dm7b5
D7
D7b9
D7#9
D7#11
D7 13
D6
Dm6


Whether it "works" is up to you (it may or may not work over the chords I mentioned - you need to try them and decide if you like the sound). If you like the sound of it, use it. There's really no "correct" way of using a scale. There are just common practices, but you don't need to follow them.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
Quote by enloartworks
can you guys expand on the whole diminished concept, i've noticed that I can use dim chords to replace Dominant chords at times but i do it mostly by ear, is there a theory behind this?

The theory behind it is tritone substitution.
#9
Quote by jerrykramskoy
That certainly covers the 7 chord a b5 away from initial 7, but there's also the 7 chord at the b3 and 6 away from the initial 7.

cheers, Jerry

Yes. Taking a few steps forwards there with tritones derived from dim7 chords.
#10
Quote by enloartworks
would it work if resolving to a majr chord as well?
@jet Penguin yeah i'm starting to notice that it's quite interesting

can you guys expand on the whole diminished concept, i've noticed that I can use dim chords to replace Dominant chords at times but i do it mostly by ear, is there a theory behind this?

Diminished triad is like a rootless dom7 chord. For example look at G7 and B diminished triad. G7 is G B D F, Bdim is B D F. Try playing G7/B and compare it to the sound of Bdim. Sounds very similar, doesn't it?

If you are talking about diminished 7th chords, you could also look at them as rootless dominant chords. Bdim7 is B D F Ab. Compare it to G7b9 - G B D F Ab.

You can substitute a dom7 chord with a diminished chord built on the third of the dom7 chord.

So if you see an A7 chord, you could as well just play a C#dim chord (C# is the third of A7 chord). It sounds almost exactly the same as A7 in its first inversion. And if you let the bass play the root of the chord, it doesn't really even make a difference.

Quote by mdc
The theory behind it is tritone substitution.

I don't think that's tritone substitution. Tritone substitution is substituting a dominant 7th chord with another dominant 7th chord a tritone away from the original chord. For example if you have a G7, you can substitute it with a Db7. It will have the same function in C major.

How does this work? Look at G7b5 chord. It has G, B, Db and F in it. What if the bass played the tritone (Db) instead of G over it? It would become Db F G B. Let's treat the bass note as the root of the chord. Now we have an augmented 6th, but it is an enharmonic equivalent (ie same pitch) to a Cb which would be the minor 7th of the chord. So what do we have here? Db = root, F = major 3rd, G = tritone, Cb = minor 7th. Compare it to the original chord - G = root, B = major 3rd, Db = tritone, F = minor 7th. They are the same chord, just with a different bass note.

Db7b5 = G7b5 (enharmonic equivalent)


So when you are playing a tritone substitution for a chord, let's say G7, you could still think it as a G7 chord, just with a different bass note. Because that's what it basically is. The bass note would just make it a G7b5.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 26, 2015,
#11
Quote by enloartworks
can you guys expand on the whole diminished concept, i've noticed that I can use dim chords to replace Dominant chords at times but i do it mostly by ear, is there a theory behind this?
The simple link is that the dim7 should contain the 3-5-7 of the dom7 chord (the other note will be the b9 of the dom7).

The connection is from the harmonic minor scale.

Eg, in C minor, the V7 chord is G7 (G B D F) and the vii chord is B D F Ab, or Bdim7. This is a rootless G7b9. Again, both chords serve the same function, to resolve to a Cm tonic.
But Bdim7 can also be borrowed for the C major key, to resolve to C.
Which also means it can resolve to any C major or minor chord, in any key context (where it would be known as a "secondary leading tone chord", if you want a nice piece of jargon).
IOW, we might find Bdim7 being used to go to C in key of G major. We'd call it "vii/IV" (vii of the IV chord) in that case. (It's not some strange alteration of the iii, Bm; it's acting like a rootless G7, "V/IV".)

So the dim7 sub for a dom7 is (in the first instance) based off the 3rd of the dom7. That's the origin of the sub anyway.

But of course, you could see it as based off the 5th or 7th of the dom7 chord too (or indeed the b9, half-step above the root). It's all the same dim7 chord, because of its symmetry.
That symmetry in turn means the same dim7 can sub for four different dom7s. Technically we ought to spell it differently each time, to get the right enharmonics, but frankly who cares?
But if we did care:
Bdim7 (B D F Ab) = vii from C minor = rootless G7b9 = resolves to C or Cm
Ddim7 (D F Ab Cb) = vii from Eb minor = rootless Bb7b9 = resolves to Eb or Ebm
E#dim7 (E# G# B D) = vii from F# minor = rootless C#7b9 = resolves to F# or F#m *
G#dim7 (G# B D F) = vii from A minor = rootless E7b9 = resolves to A or Am

"Fdim7" (F Ab Cb Ebb) would be correct if we were resolving it to Gb (major), because F is the 7th degree, and the b9 of the V7 chord (Db7) would be Ebb. But F#m would be a more common key and target chord. F# harmonic minor contains E#, not F.

Then again, dim7 chords are used so frequently in all kinds of places that strict enharmonics is usually beside the point (of academic appeal only ).

However, it is worth bearing in mind that dim7 chords have two other uses too. What we're talking about here is the most common usage: as a "leading tone chord" (vii), often substituting for V7. (viidim7s are chords in their own right, we don't have to see them as rootless V7b9s.)
These chords are often incorrectly named after the bass note, which can obscure the "vii" function.
Eg, if you see Ddim7 resolving to Cm or C, then it's a misspelled Bdim7 (just happens to have D in the bass). This doesn't matter in practical terms - calling it "Ddim7" is more elegant than calling it "Bdim7/D" - it's just about understanding the function and derivation (if we want to).

The rule for usage no.1, then, is:
Any time any note of the dim7 moves up a half-step to the root of the next chord
- then you have a "leading tone chord" - the vii of the following chord.
This is the only usage where it can replace (or be replaced by) a dom7, and is considered to have a "dominant function".

Usage no.2 is the "common-tone diminished", or "cto". This - as you might guess - is when any note of the dim7 is the same as the root of the following chord.
E.g. Cdim7 > C. The target is usually major, and it works like a chromatic embellishment of the following chord.

Usage no.3 is the only other possibility - when any note of the dim7 moves down to the root of the following chord. This is known variously as a passing diminished, or chromatic diminished. The most common instance (in my experience anyway) is between two min7s a whole step apart - ie the target chord is usually minor.
Sometimes this usage can be seen as a vii of the preceding chord. Eg, if we see Em7 - Ebdim7 - Dm7, we could argue that Ebdim7 is really D#dim7 (rootless B7b9) and relates to Em, not Dm. It does sound a bit like Em7 > B7/D#.

WH dim scale applies to all these. (HW dim applies to the dom7 that usage #1 is substituting for; it's the same scale.)

IMO, as long as we are spotting connections and feeling we are making some sense of what we are hearing (making the music simpler to understand), then our analysis is "correct". It might not be the only analysis, or the best one, but if it works it works. (It will do until we hit on a better one.)

Remember our governing principle: the point of music theory is to make music easier to understand and talk about. If it doesn't, then either you're applying the wrong theory, or misunderstanding it. Either way, it's best to forget about it. (That includes any of the above that makes things more obscure.)

And don't forget to check the other thread (where I probably said all that already and lots of others said better stuff):
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1682137
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 26, 2015,
#12
You can use H-W scale as any other dominant scale (season to taste) to resolve to a target chord. Target is usually a maj, or min (triad, seventh, extended) or dom. Target can be at multiples of 3 semitones above or below the H-W. This just creates varying dissonance.

Or you can solo with H-W (e.g in a blues) for some more edge ... and mix that up with the blues scale for example. e.g. for blues in G, can play both G blues and G H-W over the G7 ... but gets way more clashy if you continue it over the C and D chords.

Also used for soloing in static grooves over a dom7 or m7. (G H-W over G7, or over Gm7) ... John Schofield is past-master at this. (e.g., on albums "Electric Outlet" or "Blue Matter").

cheers, Jerry
#13
Maggara, yes. Apologies.

Although similar to the super locrian mode, there are some very important differences. The H-W scale can't be used over dominant seventh chords with a raised fifth. Similarly, the altered scale doesn't have a major sixth degree.

Quote by jerrykramskoy

Also used for soloing in static grooves over a dom7 or m7. (G H-W over G7, or over Gm7) ... John Schofield is past-master at this. (e.g., on albums "Electric Outlet" or "Blue Matter").

I do love that album. Particularly David Sanborn's solo on Filibuster, fantastic note choice and phrasing.
#14
Quote by enloartworks
would it work if resolving to a majr chord as well?
@jet Penguin yeah i'm starting to notice that it's quite interesting

can you guys expand on the whole diminished concept, i've noticed that I can use dim chords to replace Dominant chords at times but i do it mostly by ear, is there a theory behind this?



its an amazing scale huh...welcome to symmetric harmony..a bit like the twilight zone but less rules..lets take a small peek at the edges of this kind of stuff..

to really use/explore the possibilities it is highly recommended that you KNOW diatonic harmony..the use of ii7/V7s and all the possible substitutions in most keys if not all keys..

knowing when & where to use diminished scales and/or parts of it takes a bit of study..there is a lot of information to process-so your question on using it in relation to dominate chords has a bit of intuitive insight..

lets first make things less complicated:

1-there are ONLY three diminished scales-C Db D
2-the notes of the C Dim scale are C D Eb F Gb Ab A B
3-this is a WholeStep/HalfStep scale
4-If you start the scale on its 8 degree (B note) you are still using the C diminished scale even though you have now arranged the scale as HalfStep/WholeStep..it is NOT the B diminished scale..(see #1 !)--the logic is if you begin the G major scale on the F# note-your are NOT playing a F# Major scale

this eliminates a lot of confusion with diminished scales names and applications(yes I know there will be hell to pay for my saying this)


a quick overview-my take

one of the scales I discovered hiding in the diminished scale is the Tri-Tone Scale -a very cool hexatonic (six notes) scale..D Eb Gb Ab A C..then I noticed I can build this scale from the 2nd 4th 6th & 8th note of the C dim scale!..and I noticed the scale also contained Four 7b5 chords- D7b5 Ab7b5 F7b5 B7b5 (the notes in each of these chords: 1 3 b5 b7)..

with some trial and error..I was able to create some nice lines playing over these four chords using just the tri tone scales of each chord...now somewhere along this path it hit me

I was seeing all four chords as ONE chord...and I realized there are minor 7th chords that can also be built from the 2 4 6 8 degree of the dim scale Dmi7 Fmi7 Abmi7 and Bmi7...which can imply ii7-V7s (Dmi7 G7)...so it evolved that a sub of D7b5 for the Dmi7 was quite natural..now the possibilities were beginning to be mind boggling..I began to use scale frags and arps of all these chords in place of each other in some places along with the connecting some lines with the tri tone scale and the lines were just fantastic..with octave displacement and some string skipping..

so now I was seeing and using eight chords as ONE chord-the notes of one were just the extensions of others..if there was a gap or a flat stop..moving a half step with a diminished run or part of the Tri Tone scale smoothed it out..

Bottom Line
hooking all this up took a lot of time (years) to make it a "turnkey" tool that can be used in many situations.. (melding all this with "augmented theory" is another avenue to explore should you get bored)

hope this helps
play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Jul 26, 2015,
#15
Quote by jongtr
The simple link is that the dim7 should contain the 3-5-7 of the dom7 chord (the other note will be the b9 of the dom7).

The connection is from the harmonic minor scale.

Eg, in C minor, the V7 chord is G7 (G B D F) and the vii chord is B D F Ab, or Bdim7. This is a rootless G7b9. Again, both chords serve the same function, to resolve to a Cm tonic.
But Bdim7 can also be borrowed for the C major key, to resolve to C.
Which also means it can resolve to any C major or minor chord, in any key context (where it would be known as a "secondary leading tone chord", if you want a nice piece of jargon).
IOW, we might find Bdim7 being used to go to C in key of G major. We'd call it "vii/IV" (vii of the IV chord) in that case. (It's not some strange alteration of the iii, Bm; it's acting like a rootless G7, "V/IV".)

So the dim7 sub for a dom7 is (in the first instance) based off the 3rd of the dom7. That's the origin of the sub anyway.

But of course, you could see it as based off the 5th or 7th of the dom7 chord too (or indeed the b9, half-step above the root). It's all the same dim7 chord, because of its symmetry.
That symmetry in turn means the same dim7 can sub for four different dom7s. Technically we ought to spell it differently each time, to get the right enharmonics, but frankly who cares?
But if we did care:
Bdim7 (B D F Ab) = vii from C minor = rootless G7b9 = resolves to C or Cm
Ddim7 (D F Ab Cb) = vii from Eb minor = rootless Bb7b9 = resolves to Eb or Ebm
E#dim7 (E# G# B D) = vii from F# minor = rootless C#7b9 = resolves to F# or F#m *
G#dim7 (G# B D F) = vii from A minor = rootless E7b9 = resolves to A or Am

"Fdim7" (F Ab Cb Ebb) would be correct if we were resolving it to Gb (major), because F is the 7th degree, and the b9 of the V7 chord (Db7) would be Ebb. But F#m would be a more common key and target chord. F# harmonic minor contains E#, not F.

Then again, dim7 chords are used so frequently in all kinds of places that strict enharmonics is usually beside the point (of academic appeal only ).

However, it is worth bearing in mind that dim7 chords have two other uses too. What we're talking about here is the most common usage: as a "leading tone chord" (vii), often substituting for V7. (viidim7s are chords in their own right, we don't have to see them as rootless V7b9s.)
These chords are often incorrectly named after the bass note, which can obscure the "vii" function.
Eg, if you see Ddim7 resolving to Cm or C, then it's a misspelled Bdim7 (just happens to have D in the bass). This doesn't matter in practical terms - calling it "Ddim7" is more elegant than calling it "Bdim7/D" - it's just about understanding the function and derivation (if we want to).

The rule for usage no.1, then, is:
Any time any note of the dim7 moves up a half-step to the root of the next chord
- then you have a "leading tone chord" - the vii of the following chord.
This is the only usage where it can replace (or be replaced by) a dom7, and is considered to have a "dominant function".

Usage no.2 is the "common-tone diminished", or "cto". This - as you might guess - is when any note of the dim7 is the same as the root of the following chord.
E.g. Cdim7 > C. The target is usually major, and it works like a chromatic embellishment of the following chord.

Usage no.3 is the only other possibility - when any note of the dim7 moves down to the root of the following chord. This is known variously as a passing diminished, or chromatic diminished. The most common instance (in my experience anyway) is between two min7s a whole step apart - ie the target chord is usually minor.
Sometimes this usage can be seen as a vii of the preceding chord. Eg, if we see Em7 - Ebdim7 - Dm7, we could argue that Ebdim7 is really D#dim7 (rootless B7b9) and relates to Em, not Dm. It does sound a bit like Em7 > B7/D#.

WH dim scale applies to all these. (HW dim applies to the dom7 that usage #1 is substituting for; it's the same scale.)

IMO, as long as we are spotting connections and feeling we are making some sense of what we are hearing (making the music simpler to understand), then our analysis is "correct". It might not be the only analysis, or the best one, but if it works it works. (It will do until we hit on a better one.)

Remember our governing principle: the point of music theory is to make music easier to understand and talk about. If it doesn't, then either you're applying the wrong theory, or misunderstanding it. Either way, it's best to forget about it. (That includes any of the above that makes things more obscure.)

And don't forget to check the other thread (where I probably said all that already and lots of others said better stuff):
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1682137


thank you man, this really helped and answered my questions. It's deff a lot easier to try it with my guitar than to try and make sense without the visual part, but now I understand. Diminished chords seem as a tension point before reaching the next chord.

on the 2nd usage you said it works like a chromatic embellishment, what does that mean, i know what chromatic means lol jsut not in the context here.
#16
Quote by enloartworks

on the 2nd usage you said it works like a chromatic embellishment, what does that mean, i know what chromatic means lol jsut not in the context here.
To be honest I'm not sure that's the best description of it, but essentially it's a lowering of the 3rd and 5th of the target chord, so the resolution is an upward shift - especially if the following chord is a dom7:
Co > C
------------------
-7---8------------
-8---9--------------
-10--10---------------
------------------
------------------

Co7 > C7
-------------
-4---5---------
-2---3---------
-4---4---------
-3---3---------
-------------

It's common for the dim7 to be preceded by the maj chord too, so it really sounds like a kind of half-step downward slip (except for the root, of course). In that sense it's a chromatic embellishment.
#17
Quote by wolflen
...
one of the scales I discovered hiding in the diminished scale is the Tri-Tone Scale -a very cool hexatonic (six notes) scale..D Eb Gb Ab A C.....


I like that one wolflen ... very close to Lydian b7 that I use a lot.
Thanks for that!

cheers, Jerry
#18
Important note in all this: these scales are usually paired with certain chords because they are derived from the chord. If you take a chord and put all the possible extensions on it, you can rearrange the notes to spell a scale. That's Harmony, in a broad sense.

Much of the time, you really aren't focused on what scale per se, but what chord tones and alterations thereof.
#19
+1 to Mag and Jong. It's not really tritone subs, it's that diminished chords and dom7 chords have an equivalency due to the upper structure of a Dom7.

Jong, you're thinking of the concept of a common tone diminished 7th, a common embellishment, which you have correctly described.

MDC, I would argue that just because a HW scale does not IMPLY 7#5, does not mean it can't be USED over 7#5.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#20
thanks everyone for their info it really helps. just another question lol so if i'm playing over a Cmaj vamp and I apply a C half/whole over it, I really like the over all sound, what would that be considered? by applying the scale to the maj triad chord am i making it have a flat 7,b2? also i get confused because the scale has both a maj and min 3rd so what would that be?
#21
There's two schools of thought on using HW in major triad vamps.

1. Play C HW, turning the C major triad into C7.

2. Play G HW, implying the V7 chord over C major, and then resolving.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#22
Quote by enloartworks
thanks everyone for their info it really helps. just another question lol so if i'm playing over a Cmaj vamp and I apply a C half/whole over it, I really like the over all sound, what would that be considered? by applying the scale to the maj triad chord am i making it have a flat 7,b2? also i get confused because the scale has both a maj and min 3rd so what would that be?

Dom7 with both minor and major third = 7#9 chord, also known as the "Hendrix chord". If you treat everything as chord tones, your chord would also have the b9, #11 and natural 13.

Here's a whole thread about the diminished scale: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1666002

Just read the OP and it should answer your question
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#23
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Dom7 with both minor and major third = 7#9 chord, also known as the "Hendrix chord".
There's two kinds of 7#9 though.
Using HW on a C7 produces an altered V7 sound. It has a #9, but it's not the same as the way Hendrix (and others) used it, which is normally a blues tonic.
It would sound odd to use HW dim on a blues tonic IMO - unless it was about to resolve to IV, which of course makes it a secondary dominant anyway.
#24
Quote by enloartworks
thanks everyone for their info it really helps. just another question lol so if i'm playing over a Cmaj vamp and I apply a C half/whole over it, I really like the over all sound, what would that be considered? by applying the scale to the maj triad chord am i making it have a flat 7,b2? also i get confused because the scale has both a maj and min 3rd so what would that be?


All you're doing is adding dissonances ... for example, you play the b3 against a maj triad, and that's dissonant, but pretty cool sound. There's nothing that says you must never play this interval against that chord ... it's all about how you deal with the dissonances that arise ... how you move on to the next note to maybe reduce the dissonance, or maybe really pile it on.

E.g. if you play 5,3,b3,b2,1 against the maj triad the tension builds up with the b3, and builds even more with the b2, before it calms down when the 1 is landed on.

Whereas 5,3,b3,3 is dissonant for a shorter period of time.

So, yes, there are pitches that are present in a chord or scale, and hence more likely to not be dissonant ... and there's the others ... but you can use all of them ... just don't cane the dissonant ones for too long. There are some other things to watch for, like leaps involving dissonance ... but that's another discussion.

As a general concept, playing a pitch a semitone above a chord tone is quite dissonant, whereas a semitone below a chord tone is less so.

You may find this useful ... http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/soloing/chromaticism_and_swing_picking.html

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jul 28, 2015,
#25
I dug up a chord book yesterday to pass on to someone, and there was a great voicing I'd forgotten about, related to H W scale. Thought you guys may like it. E,g, for A H-W scale

- 4 5 5 5 - (from bass to treble), movable in m3rds.

Sounds really graunchy when followed by

- 3 2 3 4 - (also in H-W scale)., movable in m3rds.

So, following sounds great as a progression ...

- 7 8 8 8 -
- 6 5 6 7
- 4 5 5 5 -
- 3 2 3 4 -
- 0 2 2 - -

cheers, Jerry
#26
jerry...jim hall used those chords in some of his work..13b9 to 7#9 (which could also be a 13b5-b5th in the bass) so your 4555=Eb13b9 to 3234=C7#9..very cool sounding stuff..and yes moving in minor 3rds .. up or down (with some added voice movement) has a very nice effect

the dim scale keeps on giving
play well

wolf
#27
Quote by wolflen
jerry...jim hall used those chords in some of his work..13b9 to 7#9 (which could also be a 13b5-b5th in the bass) so your 4555=Eb13b9 to 3234=C7#9..very cool sounding stuff..and yes moving in minor 3rds .. up or down (with some added voice movement) has a very nice effect

the dim scale keeps on giving



Hi Wolflen,

Thanks for that ... I haven't heard him before, but just found this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oJ0Xbt7GUw

I better get some of his material.

Makes me wonder whether John Schofield was influenced by him?

cheers, Jerry
#29
Quote by enloartworks
hey man can you explain how the 4555 = Eb13b9? and 3234=C7#9?
i'm confused :P


Both these chords are built on the string set ADGB

C7#9 = C E Bb D# / 1 3 b7 #9

Eb13b9 = Db G C E / b7 3 13 b9

hope this helps
play well

wolf
#30
It does help man thank you, I'm just curios where does the eb come from as in how so you figure out its an Eb root
Last edited by enloartworks at Aug 2, 2015,
#31
OP:

That chord by itself doesn't have the Eb root. That chord is used as the upper structure of an Eb chord. You play it OVER Eb harmony and that resultant 13b9 chord is what it makes.

Jerry:

Not to cross threads here, but that dim/maj7 chord I was talking about? That x 4 5 5 5x chord is C#dim/maj7, also known as Eb13b9. Or A7#9. It's all the same.

Jongtr:

That's a good point about the tonic 7#9, but you can totally swing a HW scale over it. The fusion guys will imply that sound over regular I7 chords all the time.

C HW = C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

That's not that different from the pitch pool most blues players draw from anyway:

C major pent+minor pent (with b5 'blue note' thingy): C D Eb E F (F#/Gb) G A Bb

Throw in that b5 (Gb/F#) that everyone loves and it's almost identical. I use HW over I7 all the time.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#32
Quote by Jet Penguin
OP:

That chord by itself doesn't have the Eb root. That chord is used as the upper structure of an Eb chord. You play it OVER Eb harmony and that resultant 13b9 chord is what it makes.

Jerry:

Not to cross threads here, but that dim/maj7 chord I was talking about? That x 4 5 5 5x chord is C#dim/maj7, also known as Eb13b9. Or A7#9. It's all the same.

Jongtr:

That's a good point about the tonic 7#9, but you can totally swing a HW scale over it. The fusion guys will imply that sound over regular I7 chords all the time.

C HW = C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

That's not that different from the pitch pool most blues players draw from anyway:

C major pent+minor pent (with b5 'blue note' thingy): C D Eb E F (F#/Gb) G A Bb

Throw in that b5 (Gb/F#) that everyone loves and it's almost identical. I use HW over I7 all the time.


thanks for clearing that up for me deff learning a lot. I'm a super noob to jazz/fusion styles so all these are really interesting concepts, i just have to ge used to them and apply them to my playing. Thanks everyone for your help btw!
#33
^No prob. Just keep taking baby steps, don't try to dive right into the super advanced stuff. It'll help keep you motivated if you keep the struggle to a minimum.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#35
Quote by Jet Penguin
Jongtr:

That's a good point about the tonic 7#9, but you can totally swing a HW scale over it. The fusion guys will imply that sound over regular I7 chords all the time.
Ah, the fusion guys....
Quote by Jet Penguin

C HW = C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

That's not that different from the pitch pool most blues players draw from anyway:

C major pent+minor pent (with b5 'blue note' thingy): C D Eb E F (F#/Gb) G A Bb
Yes, but the odd half-step makes all the difference (as it does in many other contexts...).
IOW, just saying a scale is "not that different" doesn't mean it's equivalent! All kinds of scales are "not that different".

In this case, it's that Db.
It will certainly crop up in a C blues on the G chord, as a chromatic approach to D (or in the bass of course, going to C), but it's not a blues melody note. Not in any blues I've heard anyway...
(I bet you're going to suggest one now... )
#36
Jerry: No problem, I always enjoy the hell out of our musical jousting. Love seeing a different approach, being the guy who's more or less stuck hard to his own system. A system I'm constantly refining, but you know what I mean

Jong:

Oh absolutely. That Db makes all the difference in the world, and it'd be tough to confuse the two scales. My point was more along the lines of that the two scales were not that far removed. It's not like you were comparing Db Major and G major pent.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, but if you want one with plenty of opportunities to use scale degree b2, allow me to put up my favorite 12 bar blues ever:

"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#37
I'll throw my two cents in here as a contrast to the jazz kids. The diminished scales and whole tone scale are far more interesting when they're approached atonally. Instead of trying to impart tonal sonorities on them, approach them from building counterpoint and shifting atonal sonorites where the overall soundscape for each temporal unit. Ives is really interesting to study for that kind of thing, but it's not really easy to get into.
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#38
^Absolutely. When you aren't dealing with the idea of needing to use the sounds to imply chords and progressions; the possibilities expand even more.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#39
Quote by Jet Penguin
Jerry: No problem, I always enjoy the hell out of our musical jousting. Love seeing a different approach, being the guy who's more or less stuck hard to his own system. A system I'm constantly refining, but you know what I mean

Jong:

Oh absolutely. That Db makes all the difference in the world, and it'd be tough to confuse the two scales. My point was more along the lines of that the two scales were not that far removed. It's not like you were comparing Db Major and G major pent.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, but if you want one with plenty of opportunities to use scale degree b2, allow me to put up my favorite 12 bar blues ever:

I love that tune too. And I might well use HW dim on those dom7s, because they're functioning as Vs (except for that G13 at either end, of course).
It's on dom7s not functioning as V (or bII) where I'd have trouble making HW dim sound good. On the vamp, it might well be D blues scale for me - to drag its bossa ass some way back where it came from. (Dorian? yawn! )
(I'm just splitting hairs again.)
#40
^You aren't though. The act of everyone interpreting the harmony differently is what makes jazz jazz.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
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