#1
I'm using a Laney Ironheart 120 with a Gibson SG. I have the laney's gain set to a moderate/high gains setting (about 2/3 o clock) which gives me a good amount of distortion, but it sounds a bit loose and crunchy (in a mid range sense), taming it with the EQ seems to just put it into dark territory and it loses high definition.

Now I use this with a big muff pi tone wicker, a Digitech bad monkey, and a Crybaby 105Q bass wah (see sig for signal chain path) now the problem is I can't seem to get a happy tone, and I don't know what settings to really have with each pedal. At the moment, I have the fuzz's volume at about 10 o clock, because anything above that just starts to add too much fizz and noise into an already overdriven amp. The actual gain/sustain setting is put to 0, because that also just adds way too much noise and it turns into a mess. This gives me a nice heavy distortion, but I lose a bit of attack when it comes to things like pinch harmonics; It seems like I just have less 'drive' output if that makes sense? But I still have tonnes of noise

I use the bad monkey to counter this by having the output at about 1/2 o clock, and the gain at 0, which does add some bite back in, but now it's just into danger territory with the amount of gain. As soon as I use the wah, when its pressed in forwards, notes are just an ice pickey trebley mess.

This is a bit of a messy post in it's own right, but the main thing I'm trying to figure out, is how can I get all of these pedals to interact, without making such drastic tone changes? I like the fuzz as my main distortion sound with the amp, and then the overdrive for more lead based licks, but with the wah involved for actual solos, it's just horrible.

What is the best way to stack the gain with these pedals and amp? Should the amps gain be set lower, and introduce more output on the fuzz and overdrive? What about the wah's gain setting? I have the gain and tone settings maxed on that because it doesn't sound aggressive enough when lowered. Perhaps lowering the settings on that and increasing the OD?

I hope this post makes sense, just trying to get some thoughts out coherently
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#2
It just sounds like way too many toys in your signal chain. Start with just wah and amp. Find badass tone> add one more pedal and adjust for new badass tone while preserving original badass tone. Repeat. You should always be able to get great rock tone with just guitar and amp.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

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Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#3
seems like to much gain and some eq issues. that is a multi-channel amp right? perhaps you need to try to let the amp do more of the work but with less gain. if you want the fuzz as your main distortion then the amp needs to be set cleaner as you are just piling on the gain which turns the sound to mush. the overdrive probably woud work better set in boost mode (volume on 10, gain close to 0 and tone to taste). i'd also perhaps try to use the different channels to alter the sound as well as they give you more options.
#4
Quote by monwobobbo
seems like to much gain and some eq issues. that is a multi-channel amp right? perhaps you need to try to let the amp do more of the work but with less gain. if you want the fuzz as your main distortion then the amp needs to be set cleaner as you are just piling on the gain which turns the sound to mush. the overdrive probably woud work better set in boost mode (volume on 10, gain close to 0 and tone to taste). i'd also perhaps try to use the different channels to alter the sound as well as they give you more options.


Yeah that would make sense, but as I said, even the amps gain at 2/3 o clock, adding a the fuzz at a volume low enough that it doesnt start to kill the tone, it seems to lack the bite, and things like pinch harmonics are suddenly harder to pull off. The tone just seems less snappy and fluid. A lot more muffled, and almost choked for gain.

I feel as though lowering the amps gain would only make things worse, but would I in response increase the fuzz/OD outputs? I just get confused where the main focus should be in gain staging. More gain on the OD vs fuzz vs amp?
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#5
Yea sounds like you're pushing too much.

I used a Marshall solid state that I played through clean, and relied solely on pedals, but now I have a traynor tube amp so ive started to use the amps own gain more and more and use my pedals as a boost.

Maybe try playing through your clean channel and just stack the pedals, or use the OD as a solo boost.
#6
Quote by TheLazer
Yeah that would make sense, but as I said, even the amps gain at 2/3 o clock, adding a the fuzz at a volume low enough that it doesnt start to kill the tone, it seems to lack the bite, and things like pinch harmonics are suddenly harder to pull off. The tone just seems less snappy and fluid. A lot more muffled, and almost choked for gain.

I feel as though lowering the amps gain would only make things worse, but would I in response increase the fuzz/OD outputs? I just get confused where the main focus should be in gain staging. More gain on the OD vs fuzz vs amp?


ok let see if this makes sense. sounds like you are using the gain as a crutch to make up for technique deficencies. pinch harmonics if done correctly need no gain. as for the fluid thig that often covers up picking issues when trying to play fast. notes should be clear and not rely to much on gain. if that isn't the case then often it's sloppy playing that kills the tone. not trying to be a dick just pointing something out. more gain is rarely the answer. took me a while to figure that out when i was a beginer. now i use far less gain than i did then. thing is that when done right you don't need a ton of gain and the sound will still be heavy. (for examples see link in my profle much of the guitar on my tunes is a strat with single coils)
#7
Quote by monwobobbo
ok let see if this makes sense. sounds like you are using the gain as a crutch to make up for technique deficencies. pinch harmonics if done correctly need no gain. as for the fluid thig that often covers up picking issues when trying to play fast. notes should be clear and not rely to much on gain. if that isn't the case then often it's sloppy playing that kills the tone. not trying to be a dick just pointing something out. more gain is rarely the answer. took me a while to figure that out when i was a beginer. now i use far less gain than i did then. thing is that when done right you don't need a ton of gain and the sound will still be heavy. (for examples see link in my profle much of the guitar on my tunes is a strat with single coils)


Nah that's fine, I have the same view anyway. But like I said in my original post, adding the fuzz creates the heaviness I want in my tone, but seems to lack the clarity and drive of before. It almost sounds like I DID have a tube screamer on before with just the amp, and turning the fuzz on removes it.
It's not down to technique because I can pull them off all day long, and they're still manageable with the fuzz, it just becomes tougher to find that sweet spot that lets it scream. Hence why I then say I need to turn my OD on to bring that fluid sound back in
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#8
It can be quite frustrating stacking pedals. Some get along better with others some don't.

I will give you my example. I am running this into a Orange dual terror, on the fat channel with very little gain and the volume higher. I have a zendrive going into an OCD into the front of the amp. I have the zendrive with some gain and a volume boost, i am using the pedal for base od. I have the OCD with quite a bit of gain, but the same volume. So I have heavier gain and a low gain. I always have the zendrive on and i kick the OCD for heavier things. The volume is the same with the amp without pedals as it is with the OCD alone. The zendrive adds a little bit of volume, and with the OCD is the same with the zendrive alone.

You have to mess around a lot to get it right. Hopefully I was clear enough, it's hard to explain in text.

Also, are you running your wah before drive/fuzz or after?
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#9
Chain is:

Guitar>tuner>ISP Decimator>wah>octaver>OD>Fuzz>amp
>FX loop
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#10
If I want a stronger sustain, more tightness and better clarity, should I use the OD/fuzz lightly into more gain in the preamp? Or have the pedals set to a higher output with a lower pre amp gain? If the latter, which should have more output on the pedals? A high OD boost feeding a lower output fuzz? Or a lower output on the OD mildly boosting a higher fuzz?

I think those are the 3 possibilities I have, and I just don't know what the norm generally is in getting as clean a tone as possible, but still having that high 'clear' gain
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#11
Have you ever tried a Marshal tube amp.

I heard you say you couldn't get a " happy" tone, and that it becomes too dark.

While tone is suggestive, a Laney compared to a "classic Marshall" sound could be said to be darker in many instances.

Can't hurt to try it out.

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#12
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Have you ever tried a Marshal tube amp.

I heard you say you couldn't get a " happy" tone, and that it becomes too dark.

While tone is suggestive, a Laney compared to a "classic Marshall" sound could be said to be darker in many instances.

Can't hurt to try it out.


No, I haven't. I'm actually quite happy with the dark tone I have, it's just the horrible too middy/fizzy crunch I have in my sound. Taming it back makes it a bit too dark though, and that's where I feel I need my OD to bring nicer mids/highs back in.

While I'm not looking for a perfect answer of "set your amp to X, your fuzz to X" etc (although that would be great!) I'm more just looking for some theory and knowledge on how gain staging should work.

Like, on paper, a high output fuzz shouldn't feed a high preamp gain (I've found this out myself) so to bring back the fizz, and add clarity while still having good sustain, which should I roll back, the amp gain or the fuzz and which should I increase? And things such as should OD's output be set to max if feeding a fuzz into an overdriven amp. Should a wah have a lower output if going into a high OD, into the fuzz, blah blah blah.

I know it's always about experimenting, but I feel like I've got a 5 digit pin code to guess, and no matter how much tweaking I do, there will always be so many variables that it would take forever to figure out what is optimal. I could try so many different combinations of outputs and gain levels on the wah/OD/fuzz, but if the amps gain is set wrong in the first place, it'll be worthless. And the same applies to a specific pedal.

I will always be experimenting, but I'd just like a nice starting point of "yeah, don't have a high output on the OD, if you then have a fuzz feeding an overdriven amp afterwards" or something along those lines.

Seriously, **** metal setups
Gibson SG (Goddess - Violet Burst / Standard - Alpine White)
Laney Ironheart 120W and Celestion V30's

(Front) Polytune 2 noir > Cry Baby Wah 105Q Bass > Octave Multiplexer > BAT Pharaoh Fuzz > MXR Line Driver
(Loop) ISP Decimator G String II > Hardwire Supernatural
Voodoo Labs PP2
#13
^ Im not sure if you meant the amps EQ or an actual EQ pedal, i'll assume its the former & just recommend something like the mxr 10 band EQ in the amps loop, it will offer better control overall & you might find the extra boosts in gain not necessary to have in front of the amp to tighten up the sound.
#14
Ironically I feel everything you said in your last reply is exactly something a perfectionist would say down to the details of the wording

Nothing wrong with that in itself though, and I'm not here to judge you.

I still stand by my initial reply.

You can't polish a turd, and while your amp is not a turd in any means, the real essence of that saying is that having the correct base is important.

With polish I mean your endless experimenting with pedal settings, can't seem to satisfy your needs.

I have no doubt you like your amp, but if it would be mold-able into any sound, there would be no demand for any other amp company at all.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#15
turn the gain down a bit and use the bad monkey as a boost- level on 10, drive on 0, tone on about 2 o'clock. (only use those settings on the od channel or you'll blow your ears out)
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#16
Quote by TheLazer
Nah that's fine, I have the same view anyway. But like I said in my original post, adding the fuzz creates the heaviness I want in my tone, but seems to lack the clarity and drive of before. Hence why I then say I need to turn my OD on to bring that fluid sound back in


Try reducing your fuzz and gain a lot and bringing in a delay and maybe a bit of compression. A guitar that has good native guitar sustain helps, too. You might also see if you can locate a Carvin Belair near you and listen to the "Soak" (gain) channel on one of those. It was designed with Allan Holdsworth, who does a lot of legato and smooth lead playing. Just listen to it for that aspect of it alone.

As for the "heavy"...

See if you can borrow a cabinet that definitely has an extended lower range and give it a listen. My first exposure was to a Mesa Thiele 1x12 cabinet with an EV-L. This is a slot ported cabinet specifically designed around the EV (which has a resonant frequency down around 50Hz).