#1
Hey guys,

So I will try and keep this short and simple(lol), and you can ask me questions to clarify. I play all kinds of music for many purposes. I have multiple heads that I ran through two 4x12 cabs for a very long time. In this set up I had a marshall 1960A with 4 v30's, and a peavey JSX with 4 GT75's. Depending on the sound I wanted I would use one or the other, but could never be satisfied with one.

Generally, if you think the V 30 sounds dull and honky, or small... mix in the GT75 and itll give you less honk and more clarity in the high/low-mid frequencies. The GT75 did not seem to add bass, like some people say.

If you think the GT75 sounds bright and scooped, mixing in the v30 will add in a lot of the midrange and super low end that makes the guitar sing and respond solid.

(keep in mind I am discussing the way these speakers sound in these corresponding cabs)

BEFORE
Things I did like: The Marshall
There was a great upper midrange punch and could really blow the walls down, but only in that specific frequency range. Guessing its somewhere around 400Hz-1kHz, to my ears it had a very nice smooth upper end. I would describe the bass as being focused a little lower than where I needed it in standard tuning, de-tuning any amount would bring out more and more low end just because I think that the speakers responded better down there. So since I play mostly in standard the bass was tight and thick, but not boomy. This cab seemed to handle lower gain settings much better with the smooth high end and present mids.

Things I did not like: Marshall
The marshall, especially in larger rooms began to have a very small sound. I will say that I do not mean thin, or pinched, more like narrow. You can stand straight out front and get everything you need to hear, but as soon as you move even the slightest amount to the left or the right you hear less and less high end. I consider this a well defined edge to the sound's shape. That wonderful midrange punch that I mentioned is also what made this cab have a one sound kind of deal, and no matter what amp I plugged into it I was nearly forced to dial in a little more highs, a little more midrange, and less bass to get the speaker to respond and just simply sound... good. If this makes any sense, you "could" dial in less mids, but the cab itself would not kick out more highs, or more bass. You would be left with a hollow sound, and not necessarily a good scooped sound... just hollow.
There was also this weird point, where the gain would no longer seem to push through, on any amp I played through you could turn up to 6 and it sounds great, but you turn to 7 and it sounds no different, just maybe a little thicker. This made driving the front of an amp with an overdrive pedal difficult because you could never reach a higher gain than what the amp could truly produce. Sure, maybe with and OD pedal you get tighter bass, more crunch, and better pick articulations but its not more gain.

To my ears, this cab was very hard to get to the point of speaker break up. The sound we all love and desire from a cranked tube amp.

Things I did like: Peavey
This cab was great for standard tuned metal, especially stuff in the likes of metallica. It also had a much more present clean sound to my ears, some people think this speaker can sound sterile, but to me it chimes in all the right places. This cab had much more low mids, similar to what I would get with a really detuned guitar on the marshall. This cab unlike the marshall brought out all the gain of whatever amp I pushed through it, and more. I think this has to do with what some people describe as "ice pick" in their GT75's(mine are around 6 years old by now so theyre worn in good). The high end of this cab could also be heard more throughout the room, so the general sound is more broad. That also means that unlike the marshall, there is a vague edge to the sound. However, I would need to push the amp harder to get it to match volume with the marshall cab just because it does not project as straight.

This cab was much easier to get into speaker breakup, there is also a completely different sound when it reaches that point as well which is much more even.

Things I did not like: Peavey
Similar to what i described with the marshall and amp setting issues, this cab had a default brightness and what some call a "mid scoop". The best way I can describe it is that the low midrange on this cab really sticks out more, and the high end sticks out more. Thus, our ears tell us that there is a scooped midrange in there. But my end results proved something else about this cab, and not the speakers. No matter the amp, if I tried to dial out highs and add more mids you would end up with a sound less than desirable. With this cab's emphasis on the low mids and not so much the bass frequencies(I can't help but think that joe satriani tried to make this happen in his design as a soloist and not a rhythm guitar player) a detuned guitar on this cab seemed to lose its footing in the low register and produce a sound less than desirable... in my opinion anyways.

AFTER
You would think that both cabs now have the same speaker arrangement, so they should sound the same! No, I did not measure anything but I think the peavey cab is just a tad bit larger than the marshall. Maybe accounting for the good projection of the marshall, and the nice spread sound of the peavey. I don't actually know, maybe someone else can elaborate. Either way, they both sound a little different with the same speakers.

Marshall cab with X pattern, Immediately I noticed that the sound was still very narrow but the edge of the sound was less defined and the sound filled the room about 15% more than before. I found that there was much more upper mids/top end grit, which I actually found pleasing because before I could not get treble in the "right" spot to make picking stand out as easily without making everything else sound bright. It was not really more bright, it was just a little clearer in the high frequencies and I had more to work with. I will likely get much more use out of the presence knob on all my amps. On the low end it sounded much more open, and not quite as round as before. Overall, it just kind of opened the sound up and filed out the weird frequency spaces that were missing before. The break up on the speakers was still, not quite as easy so I think it has more to do with the cab and less to do with the actual speaker wattage etc..
This cab seems like more of a lead set up because the tone would cut right through any mix but still give a nice and full rhythm sound without really annoying low end.

Peavey cab with X pattern, once switching from the marshall to the peavey I noticed that the same amp with the same settings now sounded like it had much more super low bass and less upper mids, at the same time there was a nice chime in the realllllly high frequencies. The V30 added a lot of bass and much needed upper mid smoothness and sparkle that was much needed, an obvious improvement. The room was filled 40% more than before with the X pattern in this setup. I was able to get the speakers to break up much easier than the marshall cab still, so it might have something to do with the inside of the cab seeming a little larger. This cab instantly became more of a rhythm guitar sound because I did not cut, and it filled in a lot of low tones while still giving a lot of top end clarity. To me this cab will still be more like a sound engineer's dream cab because it will produce a very even sound throughout all registers.

So yes, they both sound killer now, but depending on what cab you've got at home you might get some different results. Hopefully all this will help someone down the road, because I could not find much on forums suggesting much more than it sounds "awesome". Just remember nothing will make you sound better more than practicing, and speakers are a last step in creating your overall sound that people will then hear
Thanks guys!
Aaron
#2
The Bogner Ubercab comes with the V30s and T75s in a X pattern. It really brings out the enormous sound of my Twin Jets. The cab also works very nicely with the Diezel VH4 and Herbert, in fact, with most high gain.
#3
i haven't tried it in an x-pattern, but i've tried it in a 2x12 and as you said, it sounded good. it's like as you said, if you don't like either speaker, the other sort of fills out what's missing in the other.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#4
I agree the high gain people will freak out because it sounds so good, but I would argue that some people might call it stale stale on a clean setting. I think it sounds full and balanced, and really its easier to take stuff away in the mixing process than it is to add stuff in.... am I right?
#5
My Peavey XXX cab has V30 and G12T75 in an x pattern. My V30 speakers are the Hellatone 60L speakers though, so not exactly the same. I happen to like the two mixed more than I like them on their own. If I had to choose strictly between the two types of speakers, I'd take the Vintage 30 over the 75.

I don't play with a purely clean tone, so I can't comment on how the clean crowd would like the combination.
Gear: Gibson Les Paul Studio, Gibson SG Special, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Fender Jazzmaster, Gretsch Pro Jet, Carvin C350, Epiphone ES-339 P90, Epiphone ES-335 Pro. Peavey 6505, Sovtek MIG-100, Vox AC30, Peavey XXX.
#6
Quote by Aholt81194
I agree the high gain people will freak out because it sounds so good, but I would argue that some people might call it stale stale on a clean setting. I think it sounds full and balanced, and really its easier to take stuff away in the mixing process than it is to add stuff in.... am I right?


I dunno about mixing since I've never done it, but I'd have said I probably preferred the cleans of the v30/g1275t mix better than V30s alone, since it's not as middy- and focussed-sounding. Though whether that actually qualifies as "good" is another thing, I suppose
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#7
Quote by Dave_Mc
I dunno about mixing since I've never done it, but I'd have said I probably preferred the cleans of the v30/g1275t mix better than V30s alone, since it's not as middy- and focussed-sounding. Though whether that actually qualifies as "good" is another thing, I suppose


That's why I like Eminence speakers so much. As you yourself have often pointed out (or at least assumed and I tend to agree with you), they have a bit more focus on lower mids which I like in my clean tone. I actually really liked my T75s for clean tones, which was their only saving grace for me because I despised the dirty tones I got from them


In any case, nice review TS! I haven't ever had an actual Celestion V30, but when I did a 212 with a T75 and an older Eminence V30-styled speaker, I found that the tone was much more balanced overall, and gave me more room to tweak my tone to my liking without worrying about going too far in any direction.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#8
I preferred T75's over my Eminence Legends for clean tones. For my SLO tones, the Legends crap all over them.


The biggest problem with different speakers in a cab is that moment at a gig, trying to decide which one to mike up.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#9
Quote by Cathbard
I preferred T75's over my Eminence Legends for clean tones. For my SLO tones, the Legends crap all over them.


The biggest problem with different speakers in a cab is that moment at a gig, trying to decide which one to mike up.


In this case id go with the V30 for sure. Cutting right through that mix like buttah
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#10
Quote by Cathbard
I preferred T75's over my Eminence Legends for clean tones. For my SLO tones, the Legends crap all over them.


The biggest problem with different speakers in a cab is that moment at a gig, trying to decide which one to mike up.


2 mics.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#11
Quote by dementiacaptain
That's why I like Eminence speakers so much. As you yourself have often pointed out (or at least assumed and I tend to agree with you), they have a bit more focus on lower mids which I like in my clean tone. I actually really liked my T75s for clean tones, which was their only saving grace for me because I despised the dirty tones I got from them


I don't mind the t75s for dirt either, but then I don't seem to mind fizz as much as some people
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#12
Quote by Dave_Mc
i haven't tried it in an x-pattern, but i've tried it in a 2x12 .


I thought we'd dismissed this "X-Pattern" nonsense back in the early '70's.
In short -- doesn't make any difference.
#13
Quote by dspellman
I thought we'd dismissed this "X-Pattern" nonsense back in the early '70's.
In short -- doesn't make any difference.


Doesn't make any difference to what, exactly?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#14
Quote by Aholt81194

If you think the GT75 sounds bright and scooped, mixing in the v30 will add in a lot of the midrange and super low end that makes the guitar sing and respond solid.


Quote by Aholt81194
I think this has to do with what some people describe as "ice pick" in their GT75's(mine are around 6 years old by now so theyre worn in good). But my end results proved something else about this cab, and not the speakers. No matter the amp, if I tried to dial out highs and add more mids you would end up with a sound less than desirable.
You would think that both cabs now have the same speaker arrangement, so they should sound the same! No, I did not measure anything


This "review" might have been a lot more useful if you *had* measured something.

"Ice pick" in GT75s is usually the result of someone finally standing directly in front of a 4x12. Everything in a 4x12 from 500Hz on up is very directional, and if you're standing off the axis, you won't hear it, but if you're directly in line with the axis, you'll get your skull split.

A lot of what does NOT get mentioned in these "reviews:"

1. Condition of the two cabinets compared. What's the material used? Plywood throughout or does one use some MDF? Are the cabinets airtight? Does the central brace actually contact the middle of the rear panel? Is there any "oil-canning" apparent? What are the actual *internal* dimensions?

Leaking air loses power and bass. "Oil-canning" means that the sides/back/front actually move slightly in and out, which indicates inadequate construction stiffness which leads to loss of power and bottom end. If the center brace doesn't contact the back, the back is likely acting like a drum head and producing its own sympathetic vibration at a frequency that's a multiple of the wavelength represented by the diagonal of the back. This also loses power and bass.


2. The room in which the review was conducted. Same in both cases? Hard walls? Bedroom with walls close to each other?

3. Was one cabinet on the floor, another on top of that cabinet? Was one closer to a wall on either side than the other, or did the listener move the second cabinet into the exact same spot (the issues here are both mechanical and acoustic coupling as well as the angle from the ear to the axis of the cabinet). Was one cabinet positioned over a heating duct?

4. Listening conditions? Could ear fatigue have been a factor in "hearing" differences between the cabinets? What were the chances that one or more of the speakers used was damaged? Was the listening conducted at the same time, or could there have been temperature and humidity differences caused by a different time of day?

And so on. These reviews are absolutely useless (if lengthy) when some control over all of these factors isn't applied. And finally, actual measurement and consistency is very important when something as subjective as hearing is involved.
#15
He said he thought they sounded better, you said his review wasn't scientifically rigorous.

Apples and Oranges.

Tell me though, for the sake of levity, how you're going to apply your scientific rigor to "better"?

I'm all for using science to show something as nonsense, but in this case it can't be done, as the criteria was entirely (not partially, not somewhat, entirely) subjective.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Oct 6, 2015,
#16
Jeez, it's a review, not a research.

Sure i would have liked things tested and measured, but damn, chill out.
Gear:
PRS custom 24 (2000)
PodHD500x (cause i'm poor, upgrade soon)
Custom power amp
Homemade 2x12 (celestion V30 + G12H creamback)

HORSES BLEW FIRE (My band)
#17
Quote by Arby911
2 mics.

Exactly, a total PITA.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#18
Quote by Cathbard
Exactly, a total PITA.


How is one additional mic a total PITA?

Methinks thou art being a whiny bitch...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#19
Quote by Arby911


Tell me though, for the sake of levity, how you're going to apply your scientific rigor to "better"?

I'm all for using science to show something as nonsense, but in this case it can't be done, as the criteria was entirely (not partially, not somewhat, entirely) subjective.


Even if you're going to be entirely subjective about your evaluation, you should probably apply *some* science (like putting both speakers in exactly the same place relative to your subjective ear, or making sure that you don't have acoustic or mechanical coupling swaying your judgment.

A "review" implies some kind of objectivity. "I listened to this cabinet in a steel mill and that one in a tea garden, and I really rather liked that one." The questions are an attempt to find out if there's any worth to the review or if it's a waste of space and time.
#20
Quote by dspellman
I thought we'd dismissed this "X-Pattern" nonsense back in the early '70's.
In short -- doesn't make any difference.


I have no idea if it makes any difference or not. But I figured it was better to clarify what I have and haven't tried so people can make their own minds us.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#21
Quote by dspellman
Even if you're going to be entirely subjective about your evaluation, you should probably apply *some* science (like putting both speakers in exactly the same place relative to your subjective ear, or making sure that you don't have acoustic or mechanical coupling swaying your judgment.

A "review" implies some kind of objectivity. "I listened to this cabinet in a steel mill and that one in a tea garden, and I really rather liked that one." The questions are an attempt to find out if there's any worth to the review or if it's a waste of space and time.


Oh ok, because on my first reading it appeared you were being a hardass.

But upon reading it again I will admit that now there's no doubt you were being a hardass...

Which annoys me, because that's MY job!
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#22
I'm glad Dspellman started posting here, it keeps Arby occupied and means maybe I can slip up a little more often without being called on it
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#23
Quote by dementiacaptain
I'm glad Dspellman started posting here, it keeps Arby occupied and means maybe I can slip up a little more often without being called on it


“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#24
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#26
Quote by Arby911
How is one additional mic a total PITA?

Methinks thou art being a whiny bitch...
Well, you just know the sound guy is only going to us one anyway so
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#27
Quote by Cathbard
Well, you just know the sound guy is only going to us one anyway so


IIRC, you had a way of generating an "understanding" with the sound guy that was up to and including violence or threats of violence?

I'm ok with that...

Pull a channel off the drummer, prick uses up too many anyway!
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#28
Trouble is that you can't hear the FoH. He can pretty much do whatever he wants there.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#29
This "review" might have been a lot more useful if you *had* measured something.

It sounds like you already know everything, so I will not waste any more time confirming or denying how I have my home studio set up. A lot of people already know how a Marshall 4x12 1960A will sound and respond with V30's so this insight is highly beneficial for those who may be curious about trying it.
#30
Quote by Arby911
Oh ok, because on my first reading it appeared you were being a hardass.

But upon reading it again I will admit that now there's no doubt you were being a hardass...

Which annoys me, because that's MY job!



Sorry, you seemed to be off killing zombies or something.
#31
Quote by dspellman
This "review" might have been a lot more useful if you *had* measured something.

It sounds like you already know everything, so I will not waste any more time confirming or denying how I have my home studio set up. A lot of people already know how a Marshall 4x12 1960A will sound and respond with V30's so this insight is highly beneficial for those who may be curious about trying it.


I do have three 1960's of varying ages (the third was just handed to me by someone getting out of the business, and Lord, I truly did not need something more in my storage unit), but I have no idea how they sound in your home studio setup. I dunno about you, but my experience with them is that they vary a LOT depending on environment.

I'm always leary about "home studios'" sonic properties, which is why I asked.
#32
dspellman - you are a good guy, but I think that you are being a complete ass.

OP put a lot of work into this, if you want it done differently or more scientifically, do it yourself and start your own thread

Good post OP.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

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alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#33
Quote by dspellman
Sorry, you seemed to be off killing zombies or something.


“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#34
Quote by trashedlostfdup
dspellman - you are a good guy, but I think that you are being a complete ass. .


That HAS been known to happen. I'll have to check to see if my medication has been changed.