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#1
I have been wondering why it is hard to find a mid/high range electric Les Paul shape guitar with 24 frets. I want to replace my guitar and I have been looking in Ibanez and ESP guitars and found that LP with 24 frets is only available at LTD series which is the lowest in ESP. Maybe Ibanez is the only one offering 24 frets Les Paul with their new ARZ prestige but with only one model with one color with no inlays in the fretboard !

Any clue why 24 is rare in LP ?
#2
Probably because with a traditional Les Paul shape getting to the top frets is ridiculously awkward anyway. Without messing with proportions there isn't really a way to get a Les Paul's 24th fret easily accessible. Contoured neck heels and everything help, but look where it is on the body:


Also, that interferes with the neck pickup position, and people playing Gibson Les Pauls, at least, tend to be picky about neck pickup sound.
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#3
24 frets messes with the placement/location of the neck pickup in a way that doesn't sound as good, apparently.
#4
I for one actually like having the neck pickup closer to the bridge. Makes it less muddy.

24 frets are generally less common because 22 frets follows tradition.
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#5
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
24 frets are generally less common because 22 frets follows tradition.

I think this is basically true in general, but I do think the reason for the particular rarity of 24-fret LP-shape guitars is probably an ergonomic one.
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#6
They're not that uncommon.

Ibanez, ESP, Carvin, Agile, and others make them.
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#7
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
24 frets are generally less common because 22 frets follows tradition.

Yep, yet another "I'm going to purposefully handicap myself in order to be more true and oldschool" one.
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#8
Quote by oneblackened
They're not that uncommon.

Ibanez, ESP, Carvin, Agile, and others make them.


Still considered "uncommon" from my point of view noting that ESP puts 24 frets in their LTD EC guitars only which is their least category.
#10
ESP has one on their website. Also, why not LTD? Unless you actually wanna spend around 2000 dollars then LTD would be your best bet. The middle end LTDs blow epiphone out of the water and the higher end compares in quality to other guitars in the price range.
#11
Doesn't PRS have some 24 fret singlecuts?
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#12
I think Jpnyc has the right answer. Few people want to play that high. Why stop at 24? Everything has to stop somewhere.
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#13
Quote by Rickholly74
I think Jpnyc has the right answer. Few people want to play that high. Why stop at 24? Everything has to stop somewhere.

Well I mean as such two octaves is a sensible length to have musically, but then I always found the bend to the high E was quite useful for creating lazy climaxes anyway, since man's usually playing in E minor 22 and 24 frets are both pretty sensible lengths to have key-wise.
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#14
Quote by mockbel


Any clue why 24 is rare in LP ?


Tradition.

And the fact that it's a relatively short scale.
But mostly tradition.

I have several LPs and several LP-alike guitars that have 24 frets.
Carvin makes the CS 624 http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/guitars/cs624 that comes with 24 frets.


Carvin also makes the SC90 single-cut, which is a neck-through guitar with 24 frets:



Agile's AL2000 Floyd has 24 frets, as do some of their AL-3100 Floyds. And you can custom order a 24-fret AL-3200 as well. In addition, the longer scale (25.5", 27", etc.) AL-series guitars are usually 24-fret guitars.

The 3100 Floyd:



AL-2000 Floyd:



AL 627 (27" scale):



All of my Moonstones are 24-fret guitars.

Gibson's first 24-fret guitar was the L6-S first sold in 1972 (this is one of mine):



It's not, strictly speaking, a Les Paul, since the body is wider (often referred to as LP "roadkill"), flatter and thinner (about the same thickness as an SG) than the LP body, but upper fret access is outstanding, based on the tiny change in thickness from neck to body and on the wide cutaway.

The Trussart Steel Deville is a 24-fret LP-alike:



And more.
#15
Even Gibson has made 24 fret Les Pauls - see the Buckethead signature.
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You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#16
Quote by reverb66
24 frets messes with the placement/location of the neck pickup in a way that doesn't sound as good, apparently.


Feldercarb.

The 3/4" that the neck pickup moves toward the bridge pickup on a 24.75" scale instrument may make a difference in the sound of the pickup (slightly), but very few have ever complained that it "doesn't sound as good." The SG's neck pickup (since the mid-60's) has been in the same place whether the guitar is a 22 or a 24-fret guitar, and no one complains about the placement of the neck pickup.

*Most* of my guitars are 24-fret instruments.

A Les Paul is a pain in the hand instrument in its traditional guise because the neck meets the body at around the 16th fret, the neck heel/body transition is notoriously clunky and the cutaway isn't quite wide enough to accommodate folks with large hands. As a result, you end up grasping a huge chunk of wood and rotating your hand in order to get to the upper frets. And that's with just 22 frets to consider.

The Gibson Axcess eliminates the clunky neck heel and allows much smoother access to the upper frets. It's a true game-changer on LPs, and IMHO, should be standard:



The under-$300 Agile AL-2000 Floyd simplifies things, but this neck heel is just as effective as the Axcess in allowing comfortable upper fret access, and it comes with 24 frets:

#17
Quote by oneblackened
Even Gibson has made 24 fret Les Pauls - see the Buckethead signature.


Right. But that's a 27" or 28" scale neck as well.
#18
Quote by dspellman
very few have ever complained that it "doesn't sound as good."

I would've thought you'd know Gibson enthusiasts better than that
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#19
Quote by TheLiberation at #33575502
Yep, yet another "I'm going to purposefully handicap myself in order to be more true and oldschool" one.

If those people are happier in the end, who cares?
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#20
Quote by TheLiberation
Yep, yet another "I'm going to purposefully handicap myself in order to be more true and oldschool" one.


Implies that having just 22 frets is a handicap. Personally I never found a need for the extra ear splitting, screeching notes beyond 22 frets. But then again I'm more rhythm player.

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#21
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
If those people are happier in the end, who cares?

I generally don't, but the "traditional" crowd is usually the first to do the exact opposite thing, and whine about every single thing they can't grasp - "those metal kids, no one needs to tune below E"/"no one needs more than 6 strings"/"stupid drop D tuning can't you hold a chord"... you get the idea.

Also, I've lost count how many guitars I've seen that were really, really cool and then... 22 frets for no apparent reason. And yes, I do make frequent use of the top two frets, especially for clean, ambient-ish sounds, and I still don't get the idea how can you have a more logical number of frets than, you know, two full octaves (and playing in E minor/major scale - or whatever the lowest note of your tuning is, the idea is the same - which probably everyone and their cat does at least at times, it kinda makes sense to have E as your highest note to end a solo on, doesn't it?).
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#22
Quote by TheLiberation
I generally don't, but the "traditional" crowd is usually the first to do the exact opposite thing, and whine about every single thing they can't grasp - "those metal kids, no one needs to tune below E"/"no one needs more than 6 strings"/"stupid drop D tuning can't you hold a chord"... you get the idea.

Also, I've lost count how many guitars I've seen that were really, really cool and then... 22 frets for no apparent reason. And yes, I do make frequent use of the top two frets, especially for clean, ambient-ish sounds, and I still don't get the idea how can you have a more logical number of frets than, you know, two full octaves (and playing in E minor/major scale - or whatever the lowest note of your tuning is, the idea is the same - which probably everyone and their cat does at least at times, it kinda makes sense to have E as your highest note to end a solo on, doesn't it?).

With 22 frets, you can bend up to that. Or, you can just not end on the highest note available to you, like a good musician.
#23
Quote by TheLiberation at #33575802
I generally don't, but the "traditional" crowd is usually the first to do the exact opposite thing, and whine about every single thing they can't grasp - "those metal kids, no one needs to tune below E"/"no one needs more than 6 strings"/"stupid drop D tuning can't you hold a chord"... you get the idea.

Also, I've lost count how many guitars I've seen that were really, really cool and then... 22 frets for no apparent reason. And yes, I do make frequent use of the top two frets, especially for clean, ambient-ish sounds, and I still don't get the idea how can you have a more logical number of frets than, you know, two full octaves (and playing in E minor/major scale - or whatever the lowest note of your tuning is, the idea is the same - which probably everyone and their cat does at least at times, it kinda makes sense to have E as your highest note to end a solo on, doesn't it?).

Bend the 22nd up to the octave perhaps?

And drop D is objectively dumb.
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#24
Quote by TheLiberation
Yep, yet another "I'm going to purposefully handicap myself in order to be more true and oldschool" one.


Your rant is rather more shrill than it needs to be.

The Les Paul is an instrument that was put together over sixty years ago and that was designed for the players and the music of its time. It and the Strat are the best selling electric guitar designs of all time, and both are fully capable,in capable hands, of most of modern music as well. Very few of those who buy them complain about the number of frets.

Traditionalists, like death metal fans, have very specific ideas of how "things should be," and will not vouchsafe deviations. I have a stack of LPs with Floyd trems on them (and they work very well on those guitars), and the sight of them gives traditionalists apoplexy. just as any color other than black or blood offends death metalistas. I'm sure that the latter have accepted brands of guyliner as well.

I have beefs about the LP design well beyond the number of frets, and those include the clunky neck heel, the lack of a tummy cut, the bite it takes out of my forearm, the width of the cutaway, the neck angling back, the silly lacquer finish that's long-since abandoned by the car industry and even banned by the EPA, the terrible design of that particular 3+3 headstock both for tuning/bending and in terms of its propensity for breakage and more.

Nonetheless, I have been in bands where the leader required, quite specifically, a Les Paul "and not one of those cheap copies, but a GIBSON Les Paul."

We can complain about the stupid things until the dead rise again, but some things are unlikely to change.
#25
One thing you could always do is just go to a guitar luthier and get it customized as much as you want. It's going to cost a lot but I think you'll like it a lot more than searching for it.
#26
The Les Paul is inherently a very flawed design despite it's popularity (which is why you hear so many issues of them not staying in tune, not intonating properly, etc). I love the look though, so I had one custom built. 24 frets, 25.5 inch scale, ebony fretboard, and Bareknuckles. I'll never look at another LP again. You may be better off going the custom route instead of trying to find what you're looking for in a stock guitar.
Custom guitars, vintage amps, boutique pedals. Blah, blah, blah.
#27
Quote by dspellman
The Les Paul is an instrument that was put together over sixty years ago and that was designed for the players and the music of its time.


The Les Paul was an unmitigated disaster for the players and music of its time. After nine years and multiple redesigns the Les Paul was withdrawn from the market because nobody wanted to buy them. Players, amps, and music styles had to undergo some dramatic changes before the Les Paul was relevant.

That said, “only” 22 frets wasn’t the problem.
#28
Quote by jpnyc
The Les Paul was an unmitigated disaster for the players and music of its time. After nine years and multiple redesigns the Les Paul was withdrawn from the market because nobody wanted to buy them. Players, amps, and music styles had to undergo some dramatic changes before the Les Paul was relevant.

That said, “only” 22 frets wasn’t the problem.

So what you're saying is that the Les Paul was ahead of it's time 60 years ago.
#29
Quote by slapsymcdougal
So what you're saying is that the Les Paul was ahead of it's time 60 years ago.


Only by accident. It’s not as if Les Paul, Jim Marshall, and Jimmy Page sat down and planned out a guitar that would be perfect for overdriven rock.
#32
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Pretty sure Les wasn't interested in that 'overdrive' crap.


My point exactly. The Les Paul was the perfect guitar for Les Paul. That was back before anybody realized a signature guitar should probably relate more to the buyer than the endorsee.
#33
Quote by Rickholly74
I think Jpnyc has the right answer. Few people want to play that high. Why stop at 24? Everything has to stop somewhere.


Why stop at 30? What we really need is the whole scale length full, with the pickups embedded in the fingerboard...

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#34
Quote by jpnyc
My point exactly. The Les Paul was the perfect guitar for Les Paul. That was back before anybody realized a signature guitar should probably relate more to the buyer than the endorsee.

That's kind of the opposite of a sig model, though.

Sure, you'll have to make compromises between the prototypes and the production models, but they should be very similar, or... what's the damn point?
#35
Quote by TobusRex
While on the topic of frets...why do the MIM Strats only have 21?


because they are patterened after a traditional strat which had 21 frets (1954-1984)
#36
Quote by TobusRex
While on the topic of frets...why do the MIM Strats only have 21?

The 22nd fret is stolen by Mexicans.

This guy told me so, and how can you not trust that hair, and that seething hatred?


#37
Quote by dspellman
Your rant is rather more shrill than it needs to be.

The Les Paul is an instrument that was put together over sixty years ago and that was designed for the players and the music of its time. It and the Strat are the best selling electric guitar designs of all time, and both are fully capable,in capable hands, of most of modern music as well. Very few of those who buy them complain about the number of frets.

Traditionalists, like death metal fans, have very specific ideas of how "things should be," and will not vouchsafe deviations. I have a stack of LPs with Floyd trems on them (and they work very well on those guitars), and the sight of them gives traditionalists apoplexy. just as any color other than black or blood offends death metalistas. I'm sure that the latter have accepted brands of guyliner as well.

I have beefs about the LP design well beyond the number of frets, and those include the clunky neck heel, the lack of a tummy cut, the bite it takes out of my forearm, the width of the cutaway, the neck angling back, the silly lacquer finish that's long-since abandoned by the car industry and even banned by the EPA, the terrible design of that particular 3+3 headstock both for tuning/bending and in terms of its propensity for breakage and more.

Nonetheless, I have been in bands where the leader required, quite specifically, a Les Paul "and not one of those cheap copies, but a GIBSON Les Paul."

We can complain about the stupid things until the dead rise again, but some things are unlikely to change.


i play death metal on a les paul but it's a black beauty though. they're good guitars for it actually. chunky sound and a fast short neck. ebony fretboard adds a bit more attack. good for punk too. nothing better to use to complain about the social condition of your era then one of the most expensive instruments mass produced by greedy capitalist pigs.

fyi, guyliner is for glam and black metal.

what's your problem with death metal?
Last edited by ad_works at Aug 31, 2015,
#38
Quote by ad_works
fyi, guyliner is for glam and black metal.

Eyeliner is for people who want to look good

Anyway, ultimately I don't think 22 or 24 fret guitars have ever really presented anyone with a serious limitation. 21 frets, on the other hand, does not lend itself to every guitarist's favourite key...
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#39
Quote by slapsymcdougal
With 22 frets, you can bend up to that. Or, you can just not end on the highest note available to you, like a good musician.

A good musician ends his solo on whatever he thinks sounds good in the current context. If he's going for something dramatic, he would probably find it cool to have that highest note as an option.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Bend the 22nd up to the octave perhaps?

And drop D is objectively dumb.

Well, you can, except bending on the highest frets is a massive pain in the ass.

I hope you're kidding.

Quote by dspellman
Your rant is rather more shrill than it needs to be.

The Les Paul is an instrument that was put together over sixty years ago and that was designed for the players and the music of its time. It and the Strat are the best selling electric guitar designs of all time, and both are fully capable,in capable hands, of most of modern music as well. Very few of those who buy them complain about the number of frets.

Traditionalists, like death metal fans, have very specific ideas of how "things should be," and will not vouchsafe deviations. I have a stack of LPs with Floyd trems on them (and they work very well on those guitars), and the sight of them gives traditionalists apoplexy. just as any color other than black or blood offends death metalistas. I'm sure that the latter have accepted brands of guyliner as well.

I have beefs about the LP design well beyond the number of frets, and those include the clunky neck heel, the lack of a tummy cut, the bite it takes out of my forearm, the width of the cutaway, the neck angling back, the silly lacquer finish that's long-since abandoned by the car industry and even banned by the EPA, the terrible design of that particular 3+3 headstock both for tuning/bending and in terms of its propensity for breakage and more.

Nonetheless, I have been in bands where the leader required, quite specifically, a Les Paul "and not one of those cheap copies, but a GIBSON Les Paul."

We can complain about the stupid things until the dead rise again, but some things are unlikely to change.

What do you mean

But overall, yep, very well said, and that's more or less my point. I know for some people it just won't change anytime soon, although I find it almost funny how absurdly safe some companies play - there was a thread about Fender a while ago on a similar subject, and I still claim that if they did one-two series of 24-fret Strats, I see no way in the Universe that wouldn't sell in 2015 (and onward), where many people have grown out of the "MUST HAVE 22 FRETS OR GTFO" mentality.

I won't waste my time with people who just cling to tradition with no clue of their own, in the example you gave it would be one of those signs for me that it's time to pack up immediately and find someone smarter. They can have fun with their overpriced brand name and absurdly thick necks if they like
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
There's no point in trying to convince a moron.
#40
Quote by TheLiberation at #33576180

Well, you can, except bending on the highest frets is a massive pain in the ass.

I hope you're kidding.

lol no it isn't

And I was only half kidding.
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