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#1
Hi so I'm looking at getting a tube amp with my next check. I will be getting a bonus, but I will only have about $700 or so to spend, maybe $600. What tube amp would you guys recommend that would be good for metal? I will not buy a Marshall or a Peavey 6505+, so it can't be one of those. The four I've been looking at, are the Carvin V3, Laney Ironheart IRT60H, Peavey XXX, and Peavey JSX. Are any of those good for metal? I've heard the Peavey 5150 is also another good choice? If so, which one would be best for playing post hardcore/death metal as that's mostly what I play. Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated.
#2
The 5150 is the same thing as the 6505, so if you don't want the 6505 don't grab the 5150. I'd take the XXX off and keep the JSX, it's pretty much a better version of the former. Look for used Peavey Ultras and Ultra + models. The Egnater Vengeance used might be in your range. You might could find some decent used Mesas (Rectoverb, F series, MAYBE a Mark III). Krank has the Krankenstein and Rev + (most people don't like the non-+ models). Hell, even a Jet City 100HDM would be good.

Lots of good options.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#3
Any tube amp you want, with a couple of good pedals, will do the trick. I've seen a guy using a 40 year old Fender Bassman as a metal amp with a 4x12 cabinet, best sounding rig all day. Give me the right pedals, I'll make my Fender Champ sound like a metal amp. Especially if I plug it into the old Kustom 2x12 cab...Yes I'm serious, I've used the Champ for recording rock leads. Champ and an overdrive pedal, mic it right and you'd swear it was a Marshall...

I've seen metal players using every amp brand you can think of. Marshall, Mesa, Ampeg, Fender, Soldano, Peavey, Bogen, Randall (Sammy Hagar used to swear by Randall) you name it, I've seen it used, even small combo amps...
Hmmm...I wonder what this button does...
#4
Well Paleo Pete, I'm looking for an amp that sounds heavy enough to where I dont have to use any pedals for a boost. And dementiacaptain, the egnater vengeance used is in my price range and it looks like a good amp. Does it get pretty heavy sounding? I want something with a good heavy bassy type sound as thats what my sound has to it.
#5
Why not the 6505? And regardless of how good the amp is, tubescreamers are often used. Something something sustain something something compression.
Last edited by Will Lane at Sep 4, 2015,
#6
Well a compression and noise gate pedal are besides the fact. I'm not big into pedals. I want something that will give me a nice heavy tone as well as warm cleans. I've played the 6505 and honestly, I didnt like it. Couldnt get it heavy enough even with pedals. Same with marshalls. Been there, done that. Will the egnater vengeance or Peavey JSX give me a nice heavy crunch? Some bands that have the sound I'm looking for are bands such as A Day To Remember and Bring Me the Horizon.
#7
Those bands don't use particularly heavy guitar sounds. If a 6505+ or Marshall won't get you a heavy enough sound even with pedals, I have to ask this: have you played any of those other amps you are looking at?
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#9
And A Day to Remember uses very heavy sounds in their breakdown riffs especially in the song "The Downfall of Us All". Like the sound in the beginning of that song, thats kinda what I'm going for.
#10
Quote by lespaullover96
Well a compression and noise gate pedal are besides the fact. I'm not big into pedals. I want something that will give me a nice heavy tone as well as warm cleans. I've played the 6505 and honestly, I didnt like it. Couldnt get it heavy enough even with pedals. Same with marshalls. Been there, done that. Will the egnater vengeance or Peavey JSX give me a nice heavy crunch? Some bands that have the sound I'm looking for are bands such as A Day To Remember and Bring Me the Horizon.


Well A Day to Remember uses 6505s or at least they have on several records, and Bring Me the Horizon had them on Count Your Blessings. You should be able to get a VERY heavy sound out of the Peavey, even if that's all you get. I suggest trying it again through a good cabinet, preferably with V30s, grab a tubescreamer and set volume to max, drive to 0, tone to taste, set the Peaveys lead channel eq to all 6 (cheesy but it's an easy starting point I find) gain shouldn't have to be above 4-5 (and that's possibly too much) with presence set as you like.

The Peavey is pretty much a staple of heavy music, not a lot of amps are going to really "out-heavy" it, they may just be a different flavor of heavy.

I think that it is possible to get a pretty heavy tone out of any of the amps mentioned, but you might be satisfied with any of them if you are want a studio recorded tone out of them. It isn't going to sound as heavy as on the record, you're missing bass guitar, kick drum, studio mixing and magic...

My concern is just that you don't buy a much more expensive amp when you could have gotten the tone easier. Definitely play everything you can.

To answer your question, the Vengeance can get ****ing heavy as anything, but I've heard some say that it's a bit too dark for their taste. That sounds like it could be just what you need, I thought it sounded great.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#11
Quote by lespaullover96
Well a compression and noise gate pedal are besides the fact. I'm not big into pedals. I want something that will give me a nice heavy tone as well as warm cleans. I've played the 6505 and honestly, I didnt like it. Couldnt get it heavy enough even with pedals. Same with marshalls. Been there, done that. Will the egnater vengeance or Peavey JSX give me a nice heavy crunch? Some bands that have the sound I'm looking for are bands such as A Day To Remember and Bring Me the Horizon.


Then there was something wrong with the amp or your guitar. 6505s/5150s/6505+s/any variation are some of the heaviest amps out there even without pedals. Should be enough gain for death metal and black metal even with the gain only halfway up. I say perhaps this was a case of user-error unless the amp was messed up.

A lot of the bands you're describing have used 6505s/5150s, so that is the amp I'd suggest. I wouldn't write off Marshalls either. The JVM series, though a different flavor of distortion, definitely has enough gain and balls for the genres you're describing. It doesn't sound to me like you've given them a real chance.

Anyway, JSXs are awesome amps too. Probably enough gain for any metal genre, especially with a boost. But they don't have as much gain/low end thump as a 6505 or 5150 series. Cleans are excellent on the JSX though. I could be happy with one. But my 6505+ is more brutal for sure.
#12
Seriously man, the V3 is great. It can range from almost fender style clean to nice heavy distortion. I used V3s for years.
#13
Quote by lespaullover96
I've played the 6505 and honestly, I didnt like it. Couldnt get it heavy enough even with pedals.


Do you understand the pre-gain and post-gain knobs ok? That caught me out before. the pre-gain is the distortion knob and the post-gain knob is the volume.
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#14
Quote by lespaullover96
And A Day to Remember uses very heavy sounds in their breakdown riffs especially in the song "The Downfall of Us All". Like the sound in the beginning of that song, thats kinda what I'm going for.


The guitar in that song wasn't particularly heavy. Maybe you're just confusing the sound of the bass guitar as being part of the guitar's sound since both are playing the same thing.

I remember seeing in Guitar World that the guitarist from ADTR uses a 6505 (at least he did at that time) and really it's pretty much the standard for guitar tone for that kind of music.
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#15
I don't understand why you are agaist a 6505+ when you are fine with a 5150. I bet you could not tell them apart on a recording. Use of a TS is commonplace for near any high gain amp these days. It tightetens it up and hits v1 harder.
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#16
Quote by trashedlostfdup
I don't understand why you are agaist a 6505+ when you are fine with a 5150. I bet you could not tell them apart on a recording. Use of a TS is commonplace for near any high gain amp these days. It tightetens it up and hits v1 harder.


yeah "hey i want a tube amp for metal for $600" = 6505+ combo all day. while the JSX / XXX is a greaqt amp it isn't heavier and is more designed with shred in mind than bass heavy metal. if you can't get a heavy sound out of a 6505 then you're not doing something right.
#17
Okay I'll try a 6505+ again and see if I can get it heavy. The Egnater Vengeance sounds cool too, but I kinda want something with 3 channels.
Last edited by lespaullover96 at Sep 5, 2015,
#18
Well on the 6505+ engaging the crunch button (via footswitch) is like a 3 channel amp.

If you really want 3 distinct channels then the V3 (but I understand it's a tweakers amp and may take a while to dial in) or the IronHeart look to be good choices for you.

The JSX is the same as the current XXX II so check it out under both names.

Maybe you like Mesa distortion better? A used single rectifier of some sort may be in budget if you find a good deal.

I hope you find something that works for you.
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
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Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
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#19
Quote by lespaullover96
Okay I'll try a 6505+ again and see if I can get it heavy. The Egnater Vengeance sounds cool too, but I kinda want something with 3 channels.


Yes, give it a shot. While it is a pretty easy amp to dial in, it's possible you overlooked the resonance and presence knobs, especially resonance. If the resonance knob had been turned way down, that could result in a thinner, more grating sound without much low end. Turn it up to 6 or 7 though, and it'll sound crushing. With the EQ, you can't go wrong with all knobs at 5 as a starting point. PRE means gain or distortion; POST GAIN is volume. With the pre gain at 3-4, you should already be in death metal territory.

And a word about "boosting;" that term is a little misleading in terms of what most people are trying to achieve on high gain amps. It makes it sound like the amp doesn't have enough gain on its own. That's definitely not the case with 6505s/5150s,Dual Rectifiers, and many more. The purpose of running an overdrive pedal in front of the amp's preamp is to increase the signal hitting the first preamp tube and most of them actually cut some bass going in. While this does increase the gain a bit, most people then turn their amp gain down to compensate. The real benefit to this is that you get a tighter, clearer, and more punchy/articulate sound and attack. This is a real benefit when playing fast, intricate death metal riffs and such.
#20
Quote by KailM
The real benefit to this is that you get a tighter, clearer, and more punchy/articulate sound and attack. This is a real benefit when playing fast, intricate death metal riffs and such.


So basically giving the tube amp all the wonderful benefits of solid state technology?
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Last edited by theogonia777 at Sep 5, 2015,
#21
^ No, it gets you the best of both worlds.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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#22
Quote by theogonia777
So basically giving the tube amp all the wonderful benefits of solid state technology?


If you choose to look at it that way, then yes. But it's not a whole lot different than what you get with some active pickups.

Anyway, just because you've got some solid state circuitry before the first preamp tube doesn't mean the amp will sound like a solid state amp. I have yet to find a solid state amp that sounds nearly as good a a tube high-gainer -- OD boost or not. This includes the much-overrated Ampeg VH140C and Marshall Valvestates.
#23
Well I was at guitarcenter when I tried the 6505+ and I tried a distortion pedal with it too and just couldn't get a heavy tone out of it. The guy who worked there did though so I must not have dialed it in right. I'm also in the market for a new cab. What would be a good inexpensive used cab to buy? Right now I'm running my ibanez toneblaster through a crate cab. It sounds like crap to be honest.
#24
Quote by KailM
Anyway, just because you've got some solid state circuitry before the first preamp tube doesn't mean the amp will sound like a solid state amp.


"tighter, clearer, and more punchy/articulate sound and attack"

Sounds kind of like a solid state amp. Just an observation though. Your words, not mine.
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#26
Quote by lespaullover96
Well I was at guitarcenter when I tried the 6505+ and I tried a distortion pedal with it too and just couldn't get a heavy tone out of it. The guy who worked there did though so I must not have dialed it in right. I'm also in the market for a new cab. What would be a good inexpensive used cab to buy? Right now I'm running my ibanez toneblaster through a crate cab. It sounds like crap to be honest.
And just asking to help, are you scooping mids at all or anything like that?

6505 Combo, upgrade the stock speaker if you want.
Quote by theogonia777
"tighter, clearer, and more punchy/articulate sound and attack"

Sounds kind of like a solid state amp. Just an observation though. Your words, not mine.
Last edited by Will Lane at Sep 5, 2015,
#27
Quote by lespaullover96
Well I was at guitarcenter when I tried the 6505+ and I tried a distortion pedal with it too and just couldn't get a heavy tone out of it. The guy who worked there did though so I must not have dialed it in right. I'm also in the market for a new cab. What would be a good inexpensive used cab to buy? Right now I'm running my ibanez toneblaster through a crate cab. It sounds like crap to be honest.


Distortion pedal =/= overdrive pedal. There is little to no use for a distortion pedal on an amp like a 6505. They don't need them. Their natural overdrive sounds a lot better than all but the most expensive distortion pedals. Overdrive pedals are quite different, and are typically run between the guitar and amp input (not in the effects loop), and their gain is set to "zero." The point of the OD pedal is not to get more gain/clipping. It is simply to boost the signal going into the amp and tailor the frequencies by trimming some of the bass and/or increasing the mids.

Cutting some bass before the preamp can help prevent "muddyness" in your tone. Then, since the amp's EQ controls are located AFTER the preamp circuit, you can add quite a bit of bass back in without it becoming muddy. Instead, it stays tight, punchy, and "thumpy" for lack of a better term.

As far as cabs go, I'd recommend a 212 or 412 over a 1 X 12. If you get a high-wattage head it'll be nice to have more than one speaker to handle the power. (It is possible to get a singe speaker that can handle 120 watts, but there aren't as many options). Mesa, Orange, Marshall, and Avatar all make quality models. But those are probably in descending order by price. Just know that it's the speakers inside that count. Avatar is probably the best bang for your buck in the U.S. Celestion Vintage 30s are probably the most popular speakers used in metal.
#28
Even without a speaker swap, if you can't get a solid modern metal sound out of a 6505 then you are doing it wrong. That is the one thing that amp is built for.

There are multiple ways you can use a Tube Screamer or similar, if at all. It depends what you want.

You can either boost it as described previously by cranking the level and lowering the gain on the pedal, or you can use it as a traditional distortion pedal although I would suggest use the green channel on the 6505 if you are going to do this. Pretty much every modern metal band use the first method, although one I can name that do (or at least have done) the second method is Machine Head.
#29
Okay so its decided, I'm going with the 6505+. I'll probably buy an OD pedal later on. For now I'll just get the amp. Which is better though, the 6505 or 6505+? Is there really a difference? And are all marshall cabs good? Even the lower end ones? I just want something thats gonna be better than the crate cab I have now.
#30
Quote by lespaullover96
Which is better though, the 6505 or 6505+? Is there really a difference?



If we are talking about the heads not the combo then it is entirely preference. The 6505+ has a significantly better clean channel although I have heard that the gain is SLIGHTLY lower on the lead channel. The 6505+ also has two channel EQ, whereas on the 6505 they both share the same EQ. Personally I find the clean channel on the 6505 perfectly useable if you set it right with decent pickups and pedals.

Quote by lespaullover96
And are all marshall cabs good? Even the lower end ones?


No. If you get the MG 4x12 you will be wasting your money. Most people, including myself, seem to recommend cabs with V30s to go with the 6505. May be worth looking used, depending on your location you may save a lot of money. I got my 1960AV 4x12 for £180 which is less than an MG 4x12 will cost new.
#33
Low end Marshall cabs are rubbish, especially anything with "MG" written on it. The build quality is low and the speakers are crap. Stay far away.

Marshalls to look at would be the 1936 (2 X 12 and 1960A (4 X 12), but there are others -- I don't know all their cab models.

Mesa Rectifier cabs are awesome but you'll pay dearly for them.

As for 6505 vs. 6505+ --- they are different. To the casual listener, they are basically the same, but once you're experienced you can definitely tell.

First up, the 6505+ has better cleans, and separate EQs for each channel. The regular 6505 has only one EQ for both channels. They both have a crunch switch on the clean channel which can give you some medium-gain to high-gain tones. The lead channel is pretty much high-gain only, even with the gain at "1." But the main difference here is that on the 6505+, the crunch switch is footswitchable, effectively making it like a 3-channel amp.

As for the high-gain lead channel, there are some differences in tone:

They both have an insane amount of gain available, so that's not a deciding factor.

The biggest differences are in the voicing and playing "feel."

The 6505+ has a "clankyer" attack and is tighter overall when riffing over lower chords. It's got a bit more of an upper-mid "snarl" to the tone as well.

The regular 6505 has a deeper, more throaty growl to the attack but is not as tight. Overall, it sounds a little more pissed-off and hits you in the gut a little harder. They just sound a little more massive, but less surgical and refined. You can dial it in to sound pretty close to the 6505+ by backing off on the bass and increasing the mids and treble -- but I've never been able to get a 6505+ to sound like a 6505.

Ultimately, they are both capable of the same kinds of music, they are just a bit different. And FWIW, I've got the 6505+ model, but have modded the lead channel to original 5150(6505) specs so mine is more like the original. They are not that hard to mod if you know what you're doing.
#34
Quote by KailM
^^So why do the vast majority of touring metal bands use high-gain tube amps boosted by OD pedals? Sheesh, they could be getting all the toanz with solid state amps...


Honestly I don't like modern metal guitar tones. I dig the old Valvestate, vh140c, gx130c, etc sounds used on all the old Suffocation and Cannibal Corpse albums. Also dig the old Swedish HM-2 + Valvestate/SS Peavey tones. To some tone freak's ears it might not sound "good" or like something they want to use, but those are the sounds that were used in landmark albums, and pretty much how death metal, especially old school late 80s/early 90s, should sound.

There's a big difference between what tone freaks consider "great tone" and the right tone for the job. It's the same reason why every album ever shouldn't sound like a Madonna album in terms of production.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#35
Okay so I'm not too familiar with tube amps. I've only owned one previous tube amp. So which tubes would be better for heavier metal? Like, death metal? 6l6GC's or EL34's?
#36
Quote by theogonia777
Honestly I don't like modern metal guitar tones. I dig the old Valvestate, vh140c, gx130c, etc sounds used on all the old Suffocation and Cannibal Corpse albums. Also dig the old Swedish HM-2 + Valvestate/SS Peavey tones. To some tone freak's ears it might not sound "good" or like something they want to use, but those are the sounds that were used in landmark albums, and pretty much how death metal, especially old school late 80s/early 90s, should sound.

There's a big difference between what tone freaks consider "great tone" and the right tone for the job. It's the same reason why every album ever shouldn't sound like a Madonna album in terms of production.


The thing is, with a modern high-gain tube amp, you're not forced to have a "modern" sound at all, even though that's what most people go for. I am not one of them. We are in agreement that those older death metal sounds were great! (I have an HM-2 on my board as well). What I've found though, is that I can dial in a gnarly death metal tone with my 6505 that rivals, if not exceeds the tone used on those older albums with the older amps. You just can't be afraid to think out of the box regarding EQing and tweaking. I used to have a Valvestate. In no way, shape, or form could it hang with my 6505, even for old-school death metal. I've found much the same when I tried a VH 140C.
#37
Quote by lespaullover96
Okay so I'm not too familiar with tube amps. I've only owned one previous tube amp. So which tubes would be better for heavier metal? Like, death metal? 6l6GC's or EL34's?


Matter of taste. Some people swear by british style amps like boosted Marshalls which usually come with EL34 that complements their middy tone but power tubes are not a deciding factor when choosing an amp, especially for a music that gets most of its tone from the preamp section.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
#38
Quote by lespaullover96
Okay so I'm not too familiar with tube amps. I've only owned one previous tube amp. So which tubes would be better for heavier metal? Like, death metal? 6l6GC's or EL34's?


Honestly, it doesn't make a huge difference because of how you achieve your distorted sound with the 6505. The distortion is created in the preamp, which is powered by the 12AX7 tubes. In that way, you aren't going to hear a huge difference until you turn it up way louder than you'll ever need (even for gigs)

At loud volumes, the power amp (where the EL34 and 6L6 tubes will be) distorts. At that point, you can notice the difference between the two different kinds, but power amp distortion isn't ideal for tight modern metal, which is what you want.

When I had my Peavey it never went beyond 5 on the volume knob (post gain) and that was at gigs, and I was playing with one of the loudest drummers ever. You shouldn't ever be in a position to discover power amp distortion unless you want it.

All that being said, I don't know if the 6505 and 6534 are voiced differently. It's worth a look around the Internet to see what people say, but I'd think that the original 6505 will be more than good enough for what you need, especially with a good Tubescreamer, such as the Ibanez TS7, or the Green Rhino, or whatever other variant is out there that you find for a good price.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#39
But it's not about "exceeding" or getting the "gnarliest" sound possible. That's what people don't seem to understand about solid state sounds. It's about getting "that" sound. It's the same reason why people use the 6505 for modern metal and -core stuff. It's "that" sound. There are "better" sounding amps than the 6505, but they aren't the sound that's being used.

Aesthetics and wabi-sabi or whatnot. There is more to things than "good" and "bad" and "better" and so on. It's like like dating a girl for who she is. There might be hotter or smarter or more financially responsible girls out their, but you like her.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#40
Quote by theogonia777
But it's not about "exceeding" or getting the "gnarliest" sound possible. That's what people don't seem to understand about solid state sounds. It's about getting "that" sound. It's the same reason why people use the 6505 for modern metal and -core stuff. It's "that" sound. There are "better" sounding amps than the 6505, but they aren't the sound that's being used.

Aesthetics and wabi-sabi or whatnot. There is more to things than "good" and "bad" and "better" and so on. It's like like dating a girl for who she is. There might be hotter or smarter or more financially responsible girls out their, but you like her.

Do you see what I'm getting at?


I get it, I just don't think THAT sound is particularly appealing. Nothing wrong with it, tons of great music was made with solid state amps, but I think as far as guitar tone goes, it was pretty awful. But that didn't matter, because Morbid Angel and Carcass and Suffocation and all those guys were ****ing sick and guitar tone don't mean shit without the riffs!

It is interesting to note though that most of those guys who are still going now play with high gain tube amps

Cannibal Corpse is all Rectifier, Mike Ammott rocks all sorts of stuff (including at times the 6505) and I'm sure that there are some JCM2000s in there as well (pretty sure Nile used/uses them).
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
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