#1
The other day I got an awesome idea at band practice. My rythem guitar player just got a Laney Ironheart with two 412 cabs and I run through a carvin v3 fullstack. Both have red leds that light up the head unit behind the grille. Is there anyway to rig our head units so we could have fog pouring from our amp heads and falling over our cabs on to the floor? I thought about feeding a tube from the fog machine and splitting it and drilling 2 holes one on either side of the grille and back and feeding the tube to the front end of the amp. Would that work? I'm open to easier suggestions lol.
#2
Dryer hose from the fog machine to the back of the head. Tape up most of the back around the hose and fire away.
#4
That is a stupid idea, like was said putting moisture in an amp is not a smart thing to do.

why are you using full stacks? your not playing arenas and most 4x12's are more than enough for any non mic'd gig.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Last edited by Robbgnarly at Sep 22, 2015,
#6
Quote by JimPlaysGuitar
Cause they're stickin' it to the man.

That's fine, and I have seen bands using full stacks that sounded great and were not too loud for the venue, but most people that run full stacks don't get it.

Hell sometimes I use a 2x12 on top of a 4x12, but the 4x12 is not hooked up it just keeps the 2x12 closer to ear level. Other than that a 4x12 will be plenty loud (if it is a decent cab)
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#7
TBH, as far as pub bands using stacks goes, the reason is mostly "because they can".

A mate of mine was in a band where the guitarists had been planning on building fake stack setups(just putting 2 12's in each bottom cab), because it would look cool.

Oddly enough, their girlfriends moved in before they made a start to building, and about 15 years on, they still haven't started.
#8
I don't think it looks cool, I think it makes you look like a cock. Especially when the particular choice came down to quantity over quality due to budget.
These go to eleven...
#9
Many club owners hear with eyes first. If they see stacks they immediately assume you are going to be too loud for their venue. That's a bad way to start what you hope will be an ongoing business relationship.

As for the fog machine idea, I'd forget it. As mentioned the dry ice kind produces a moist vapor and could be very harmful if blown near an amp. I wanted to use a fog machine for my band and the dry ice variety was not practical (transporting a big container, blower motor, tubes to blow the vapor across the stage and transporting dry ice to each gig.). I bought a fog/smoke machine that uses a liquid to produce the smoke. We used it twice and each time we were asked by the venues management to turn it off. It produced a lightly scented smoke that irritated some patrons eyes (so I was told). I have tried to sell it but no one really wants it so it sits in my garage. Sounded like a good idea at the time but wasn't.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Sep 22, 2015,
#10
Quote by Rickholly74
Many club owners hear with eyes first. If they see stacks they immediately assume you are going to be too loud for their venue. That's a bad way to start what you hope will be an ongoing business relationship.

As for the fog machine idea, I'd forget it. As mentioned the dry ice kind produces a moist vapor and could be very harmful if blown near an amp. I wanted to use a fog machine for my band and the dry ice variety was not practical (transporting a big container, blower motor, tubes to blow the vapor across the stage and transporting dry ice to each gig.). I bought a fog/smoke machine that uses a liquid to produce the smoke. We used it twice and each time we were asked by the venues management to turn it off. It produced a lightly scented smoke that irritated some patrons eyes (so I was told). I have tried to sell it but no one really wants it so it sits in my garage. Sounded like a good idea at the time but wasn't.

I do remember reading somewhere Manowar used to suffer from this when they were a relatively new band.
#11
30+ years ago we used theatre flash pots and all sorts (set light to a set list as a result at one gig).

These days, with complex venue fire detection, alarms linked to the fire service and none of the general atmospheric contamination through people smoking, it isn't worth the risk. The potential for setting off a false alarm, and all the issues that causes, is just too high.

Dry ice (as the name suggests) is dry so isn't exactly feeding water vapour into your amp as suggested. It will none the less cause a thermal shock to any component in the amp if you feed sub zero carbon dioxide vapour over hot valves etc.

Water certainly could become an issue if you cool anything within the amp to the point where water in the air condenses on the surface due to that item having become so cold.

Either way, it is not a very good idea if you want your amp to carry on working.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.
Last edited by John Sims at Sep 22, 2015,
#12
I love Manowar but have never managed to see them live. A friend of mine did. It was a few years ago and I think his head is still ringing from the volume. All kidding aside they are a great band and I'll see them if I get a chance (and some decent ear plugs).
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
#13
OK as far as the stacks go. Yes we play outside amphitheater's and indoor clubs. All of which we have been playing with for years now. When we play a bar we cut it to a 412 in stereo and run the bass head di to the board. We aren't playing for old folk we draw in a fairly young crowd and I have never had a complaint from a club owner and was always told to come back. Its not about conventionality, it just looks cool. And of course it looks cocky, we play hard rock and metal not jazz. Back to the actual point of the thread, if I created a insulated housing for the tube(s) would that by chance work? The tubes would release external from the amp but making it appear like its releasing from inside.
#14
Quote by John Sims
30+ years ago we used theatre flash pots and all sorts (set light to a set list as a result at one gig).

These days, with complex venue fire detection, alarms linked to the fire service and none of the general atmospheric contamination through people smoking, it isn't worth the risk. The potential for setting off a false alarm, and all the issues that causes, is just too high.

Dry ice (as the name suggests) is dry so isn't exactly feeding water vapour into your amp as suggested. It will none the less cause a thermal shock to any component in the amp if you feed sub zero carbon dioxide vapour over hot valves etc.

Water certainly could become an issue if you cool anything within the amp to the point where water in the air condenses on the surface due to that item having become so cold.

Either way, it is not a very good idea if you want your amp to carry on working.
Dry ice is not water, but you make fog from dry ice with water. Specifically, the idea is to dump chips of dry ice into hot water, and the thick white fog it gives off is condensed water vapour.
#15
You could perhaps try a recangular duct between the head and the cab. This would allow the carbon dioxide to cascade down the front of your cabs, as if it were comming out of the bottom of the head, without effecting the head. You can't really insulate the head as it would over heat.

As the carbon dioxide is heavier than air you will need a mixing box behind the head with a splash guard, perhaps the lid, to stop the roadie pouring hot water into the back of the head. Ideally the box and duct would want to be insulated to reduce the outside of them getting wet from condensation.

It might work based on the above but a lot of faffing about. The other issue is how many times you can do it before the condensation on the head and cab boxing around the mouth of the duct ruins your gear.

It is also a very unpredictable effect. Too little will make you look like Spinal Tap. If you go for over kill the unpredictable nature by which the fog disipates could mean you disappear completely and don't come back for some minutes.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.
#16
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Dry ice is not water, but you make fog from dry ice with water. Specifically, the idea is to dump chips of dry ice into hot water, and the thick white fog it gives off is condensed water vapour.

I think you will find that it is actually carbon dioxide (like in a fire extinguisher) the hot water is merely a convenient way to heat the frozen carbon dioxide and covert it to a gas. I agree there will be a water vapour component within the cloud due to the cooling but it isn't predominantly water vapour.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.
#17
Quote by John Sims
I think you will find that it is actually carbon dioxide (like in a fire extinguisher) the hot water is merely a convenient way to heat the frozen carbon dioxide and covert it to a gas. I agree there will be a water vapour component within the cloud due to the cooling but it isn't predominantly water vapour.

Carbon dioxide is a colourless, odourless gas.

What you see is condensed water vapour.
#18
I kinda doubt it will work like you are imagining it. If you use a normal fog machine, the fog will just kinda dissipate over the stage, not cascade down over the cabs. You would have to produce some kind of thick fog, like the one that comes from dry ice. And even that doesnt look as good in real life as in videos. You would have to stirr the water constantly and keep the whole thing at some kind of temperature equilibrium. My gfs dance group used dry ice for fog for 3 shows, and it always looked like shit. And on top of that, its basicly water vapour, so it can damage your amp.

You could put a smoke bomb or something inside them, like Ace Frehly (dunno how to spell that) did to his guitar while in KISS, but i belive he had issues with the smoke gunking up the electronics. And the smoke will just go up in the air and smell awful.
Joža je kul. On ma sirove z dodatki pa hambije.
#19
Take a smoke grenade into a bar and before long see several red dots aimed at your chest from the roof across the street.
These go to eleven...
#20
Gorkyporky was right. From Ace:

"We were on our first tour of Canada and I got some fireworks and said to myself, 'I wonder what would happen if I put a smoke bomb inside my Les Paul' ? I put it in the cavity that holds the potentiometers. It was just a regular store-bought smoke bomb with a fuse that I lit with a cigarette lighter and smoke just started pouring out of the pickups - and it looked great. But I had to keep changing the volume and tone controls because smoke kept getting in there. Eventually I got together with a designer and we figured that it would be better to modify the guitar and isolate the effect in the rhythm pickup, which I don't use anyway "
-Ace Frehley (Guitar World , September 1996)
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
#21
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Carbon dioxide is a colourless, odourless gas.

What you see is condensed water vapour.


Having read further on the subject I agree however my understanding is:-

The CO2 having been subliminated from dry ice is extremely cold. As it mixes with the air it cools the air which is then unable to sustain the water already present. The cloud is indeed water but suspended water or ice in the same way that clouds form naturally. The more moist the air the thicker the cloud will appear.

Thus the cold cloud will not drop the water in the same way that steam does as while steam is thick hot water vapour which will convert to water when cooled, the cloud formed by the cold CO2 is suspended ice already present in the air. As the cloud warms the very small amount of water (that being previously present in the air) is absorbed by the air again.

This being the case you can pour clouds formed by dryice over things and it will not make them wet. Stages do not get wet when dry ice clouds drift across them.

Where problems occur is where items have been in contact with the cold cloud for such a time that they become cold causing condensation.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.
#22
Quote by John Sims
Having read further on the subject I agree however my understanding is:-

The CO2 having been subliminated from dry ice is extremely cold. As it mixes with the air it cools the air which is then unable to sustain the water already present. The cloud is indeed water but suspended water or ice in the same way that clouds form naturally. The more moist the air the thicker the cloud will appear.

Thus the cold cloud will not drop the water in the same way that steam does as while steam is thick hot water vapour which will convert to water when cooled, the cloud formed by the cold CO2 is suspended ice already present in the air. As the cloud warms the very small amount of water (that being previously present in the air) is absorbed by the air again.

This being the case you can pour clouds formed by dryice over things and it will not make them wet. Stages do not get wet when dry ice clouds drift across them.

Where problems occur is where items have been in contact with the cold cloud for such a time that they become cold causing condensation.

Stages don't, but I have no idea what would happen if you starting pushing that vapour over hot tubes, which could potentially melt the ice, and thus introduce liquid water into the enclosed space of the head.

It might not happen, but I wouldn't risk it with my own stuff.

Might be some things you can do the reduce the risks(fresh silica gel packs, maybe?), but it's certainly not something worth risking trying first live. Especially if you don't have a backup.
#23
I agree entirely, as per my original post. Feeding super cold CO2 fog over valves can't be a good thing to do and, being at the source, their exposure would be extended.

The other issue is the problems of condensation on the cooled board etc even after the fog has gone and until such time as those components have reached a temperature above the dew point of the surrounding air.

I certainly wouldn't want to do it to my gear. It is one thing to pour dryice over your gear for a photo shoot, but to deliberately force cool your amp regularly can only end one way.

I agree with the above point in respect of theatrical smoke pellets. But these create a great deal of dust and detritus, could cause issues with asthma sufferers and set off smoke alarms causing a premature end to the gig.

CO2 fog is probably going to cause less problems, assuming you keep it away from your amps (perhaps build false stacks for fogging) but remains highly unpredictable. The probability of getting just the right amount (as it's density is also effected by the humidity of the air) is too small to consider as a good idea.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.
#24
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Carbon dioxide is a colourless, odourless gas.

What you see is condensed water vapour.


What causes the dusty smell you get from the vapour?
#25
Quote by Jehannum
What causes the dusty smell you get from the vapour?

I have no idea. It may be to do with a 'drying' effect, as water vapour is removed from the air. It may be because carbon dioxide can't melt steel beams

However, as someone did mention earlier, if you could rig up a duct which could take the vapour from the fog maker, routs it goes between head and cab, dumping the vapour out in a curtain thing over the front of the cab, that would prevent the vapour getting into the head.

In order to get the best effect from that, you'd probably want to put some kind of light under the fog curtain. Again, you'd want to take precautions, such as using specialist outdoor lighting for that, to make absolutely sure you avoid any ingress of moisture into the fittings and power supply.
#26
ok, here's what you can do...
use 2 4x12's, stacked.
the top one has all your speakers in it.
the bottom one is false, an empty cab.
just have the fog come out in between the top and bottom cabs.

or just build a false full stack, head and cabs and stick your real gear behind the stage and mic it.
use the fake setup on stage for your fog stuff.


or just get some strippers on stage.
Last edited by CodeMonk at Sep 25, 2015,
#27
Quote by CodeMonk
ok, here's what you can do...
use 2 4x12's, stacked.
the top one has all your speakers in it.
the bottom one is false, an empty cab.
just have the fog come out in between the top and bottom cabs.

or just build a false full stack, head and cabs and stick your real gear behind the stage and mic it.
use the fake setup on stage for your fog stuff.


or just get some strippers on stage.

This is probably going to be the best all round.
#28
Absolutely! Strippers - we should have thought of that two pages ago. Problem solved.
Please note: The above comments are based on my experience, and may represent my perception of that experience. This may not be accurate and, subject to the style of music you play, may be irrelevant or wrong.