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#1
Here's the story: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/27/transgender-boy-high-school-bathroom-discrimination-case

Gavin Grimm, a 16-year-old transgender boy in Virginia who was barred by his high school from using male restrooms and directed instead to segregated “biological gender” facilities, went before a federal judge on Monday to argue that he is the victim of unlawful sex discrimination.


Now, having gotten the gist of the story, I want you to think about something I just discovered the past few weeks:

Transgender regret--it is a real thing.

Has this (sex change operations) become more of a thing to do because of the medical advances in technology? Because if you were, going back to the 50s or the 60s, if you felt like you were a boy in a girl's body or vice versa, that was just something you struggled with your entire life, because there was no medical procedure to change your genitalia. Now we've made all these medical advances to where that can happen. But like everything else, there are consequences...

Apparently The Guardian, back in 2004, reviewed 100 studies and reported that a whopping 20%-- that's 1/5th--of people who go through transgender surgery regret changing genders (which is 10x more than MSNBC or CNN wants you to believe), and the review of those 100 studies also revealed that many of those transgenders remain severely distressed and even suicidal after the gender change operation, so that suicide and transgender regret remain a dark and undiscussed aspect of this cultural phenomenon. And that brings me back full circle to "are we just having more of this.. because we can"? I think that's what's really happening. I think that we are failing in terms of medicine and medical ethics to keep up with the question of "just because we can do this, should we do this?"

I don't know this kid Gavin that's in this story. All I know is that when I read these stories and I read this data, this kid's really not gonna be better off. He has at least a 20% chance of regretting what he's gonna go do. In 1979 a guy by the name of Dr Charles Ihlenfeld worked alongside another doctor and for 6 years they studied this by administering hormone therapy to 500 transgendered people and this is what he writes about that study:

"there is too much unhappiness among people who have had the surgery. Too many end in suicides. 36 years of the insanity of ignoring poor outcomes and just hoping that that number will go away and that just magically people will be happy with their surgeries." So transgender regret is a REAL thing.

A 2011 Swedish study--it looked at mortality and morbidity after gender reassignment surgery and found that people who changed genders had a higher risk of suicide. And it's significant. In the study, all of the sex reassigned persons in the study were compared to a comparable random control group, the sex reassigned persons had substantially higher rates of death not just from suicide, but things like cardiovascular disease. So I renew my question: Are we just embracing this because of the ability of medicine to do it, and not even taking into consideration these things?

I know this sounds stupid -- I am genuinely concerned about this kid Gavin. He's surrounded by lawyers... he THINKS he wants to be a boy. I can't get into his brain and decide if he really wants to be a boy or not, or whether he should be a boy etc. But the conclusion I'm coming to is this: because he's thinking he wants to be a boy, medicine is going to accommodate that. And the likelihood is he has at least a 20% chance that he'll end up with heart disease, suicide, or psychological damage for the rest of his life, all because he THOUGHT he wanted to become a boy. Now let's go back in time. If we didn't have that ability, medically, to do the sex change operations, what would a kid like Gavin do? This may seem cruel but I think what those Gavins would have done back in the 50s and 60s, they may have struggled, they may have committed suicide, but they probably would have learned to deal with it. Is that cruel to wonder that?
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#2
Eh plenty of people that don't get the surgery commit suicide too because they don't get the surgery. Gender dysphoria is some messy shit.

Don't think there's a solution that wouldn't fuck someone over
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#4
lol yeh it be bants if someone with an actual stake in the discussion got involved wouldn't it
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#5
Someyimes i look at my dick and am like "do i really want this penis?"

Then im like "fer sure"
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#6
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Someyimes i look at my dick and am like "do i really want this penis?"

Then im like "fer sure"

yeah gyaldem do that with mine too


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#7
Are these suicides and such caused because of society's reaction to them? I'm willing to bet it is, trans people have the highest suicide rates of any other group, and its largely to do with the way people treat them. Changing your body to suit how your brain feels won't fix the fact that you've been treated like less than human for the last how ever many years. Does the report state the reasons for regret? because I'm willing to bet its got something to do with being able to live life as the wrong sex and just hide your true feelings, living in the closet essentially, rather than go through surgery and go through all the stress of having to explain yourself and deal with all the shit that comes with it

You have to go through a ton of therapy before the doctors even start considering any kind of treatment, you can't just go into a hospital and go "change my penis to a vagina lol". Its just not how it works, and its pretty insulting to insinuate that people are doing it for kicks

and surely its more cruel to leave them to off themselves or live the rest of their lives in pure misery than try to treat them. Remembering that in the 50s and 60s it was pretty much illegal to be gay, awful shit used to happen to them, chemical castration ect. I can only imagine how trans people were treated. We've come a long way in a lot of ways, people with mental issues were just locked up because we didn't know what to do. but now there's a much greater understanding. I'm positive that as more research is done we'll understand more about being trans and we'll be able to fix this issue of "trans regret"

also keep in mind that gender dysphoria is often coupled with other mental illnesses like clinical depression and high anxiety rates, which are responsible for suicides in non trans (or cis) people. You could claim that X amount of people who've been treated for depression end up killing themselves after, so is it worth treating them?

its actually a good discussion and I hope there's an actual discussion here rather than shitposting and people being ignorant
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Last edited by Bladez22 at Oct 7, 2015,
#8
The prevalence of suicide attempts among respondents
to the National Transgender Discrimination Survey
(NTDS), conducted by the National Gay and Lesbian
Task Force and National Center for Transgender Equality,
is 41 percent, which vastly exceeds the 4.6 percent of
the overall U.S. population who report a lifetime suicide
attempt, and is also higher than the 10-20 percent
of lesbian, gay and bisexual adults who report ever
attempting suicide. Much remains to be learned about
underlying factors and which groups within the diverse
population of transgender and gender non-conforming
people are most at risk.



http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
#9
^Those last 2 posts are Good Posts
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#11
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qft


bad posts
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#12
I don't really see what the news story about the Gavin kid adds to your argument.

So how do you know that the reassignment surgery is to blame for the suicides? For example- imagine how much shit you'd get from other people for having reassignment surgery back in 2004, and even more so in 1979. That's probably going to lead to an increase in suicides.
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#13
You do realize that suicide rates among transgendered people who do not have medical procedures done is also very high, right?
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#14
Quote by Bladez22 at #33627977
bad posts

Agreed and further bad posts of that nature won't be tolerated
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#15
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bad posts


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#16
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#17
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bad posts


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Agreed and further bad posts of that nature won't be tolerated


Not sure what the issue is but okay.
#18
I can't imagine what it's like to be trans, and I feel for those people. But I think it's fairly commonly known that changing yourself on the outside isn't going to change yourself on the inside. Somehow that logic is abandoned when applied to sex or gender.

I believe that transgendered people do not benefit by pursuing sex changes in the same way that I believe that obese people do not benefit from eating ice cream, or that an alcoholic does not benefit from a bottle of booze. It is a temporary high, but in the end it changes nothing, except to make things worse.

Trans people's minds do not match their bodies, and that is a real problem. But why do we only accept physical change as the solution for the problem? Why is mental change such a taboo? If I say that trans people should go to therapy so that they can accept themselves for they way they are born, I am labeled unaccepting and discriminatory, but if someone wants to cut off a part of their body and get breast implants, they are a hero. I don't follow the logic there.
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#19
I think this is more a problem of transgendered people having difficulty being accepted into society, rather than medical practices going too far.

People are often suicidal after having sex changes. People can be suicidal for not having sex changes. Nobody wins.

I don't think society at large has any place in not giving people the right to have sex changes. But rather people need to be made aware that they need to accept responsibility for what they're doing with their bodies whether they regret it or not.
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#20
Quote by c3powil at #33628002
I can't imagine what it's like to be trans, and I feel for those people. But I think it's fairly commonly known that changing yourself on the outside isn't going to change yourself on the inside. Somehow that logic is abandoned when applied to sex or gender.

But it makes sense to think that changing one's body would alleviate mental distress if it's the source of the distress.

Quote by c3powil at #33628002
Trans people's minds do not match their bodies, and that is a real problem. But why do we only accept physical change as the solution for the problem? Why is mental change such a taboo? If I say that trans people should go to therapy so that they can accept themselves for they way they are born,

Why should they? Also, you're making that sound way more simple than it is, and you're offering a non-solution to something that isn't understood except for those who have firsthand experience with gender dysphoria.
Quote by c3powil at #33628002
I am labeled unaccepting and discriminatory, but if someone wants to cut off a part of their body and get breast implants, they are a hero. I don't follow the logic there.

First, in what way do the two oppose each other, or are even related to each other, that you thought you should contrast them?

Also, it takes balls (hueheueheuehuehue) to go through a sex change since people aren't so accepting. That's why they're deemed heroes.
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#21
Also transgendered is the "wrong" term, trans or just transgender people is better, nitpicking I know, but just a heads up
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#22
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
I think this is more a problem of transgendered people having difficulty being accepted into society, rather than medical practices going too far.


Bingo. Even post-op and with the new gender on legal documents it’s hard for a trans person to find a job that isn’t prostitution. And they can still be murdered free of repercussions in the majority of America where judges and jurors are so stupid/backward that a “gay panic”*defense is allowed to fly in a courtroom.

Gender reassignment surgery is not easy to get. In most countries years of counseling are required before a candidate will even be considered for surgery. It’s not something a person gets rushed into. And I think it’s likely that twenty percent of candidates regret the surgery because they’re treated just as badly or worse by most of society. And the Guardian’s “study” is junk science. A group of 100 trans people in Britain provides a collection of anecdotes, not useful data. They need to dramatically increase the sample size for that to be a useful study.
#23
Quote by chrismendiola
But it makes sense to think that changing one's body would alleviate mental distress if it's the source of the distress.

Yes, I think so, too. But, it is not the body that is the cause of the distress. It is the mind. What makes a girl a girl and a boy a boy? The body, of course.

Quote by chrismendiola
Why should they? Also, you're making that sound way more simple than it is, and you're offering a non-solution to something that isn't understood except for those who have firsthand experience with gender dysphoria.

Is it a non-solution? Maybe, but it seems like physical change is not a solution either, and I think that therapy helps, even if it isn't a total solution. Maybe they will have to deal with not feeling normal or 'right' all of their lives. That is a shame.

Quote by chrismendiola
First, in what way do the two oppose each other, or are even related to each other, that you thought you should contrast them?

Also, it takes balls (hueheueheuehuehue) to go through a sex change since people aren't so accepting. That's why they're deemed heroes.


They oppose and contrast because of the effects of the action. Effect 1: I am degraded for expressing my opinion; effect 2: someone is aggrandized for doing something for themselves.

I realize that people going through sex changes is deemed heroic because they are overcoming the fear of judgement by society and whatnot, but I don't think it's heroic by any means. They are doing something for themselves. A hero does something selfless.
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#24
no one can really take you seriously unless you link to the studies you talk about. considering your very strong prior bias against transgender people and intelligence, there's no reason to trust your interpretation of them.
#25
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no one can really take you seriously unless you link to the studies you talk about. considering your very strong prior bias against transgender people and intelligence, there's no reason to trust your interpretation of them.


There's enough info in the OP for you to google the studies yourself
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#26
TS, it's people like you who contribute to the suicide of trans people by pretending that you know better than they do about their own gender. When in fact all medical science up until now points to the opposite. In the past they've tried everything to make cure people of gender dysphoria, but none of it worked. The only thing that worked was HRT and if a person has genital dysphoria; SRS.
Most of the studies done actually suggest the opposite of what you are saying, trans regret only happens to around 2% of people.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/trans_mh_study.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12363/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12155/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21937168
#27
Quote by c3powil at #33628044
Yes, I think so, too. But, it is not the body that is the cause of the distress. It is the mind. What makes a girl a girl and a boy a boy? The body, of course.

I don't see it the same way- the mind is what's distressed, the stressor is the body.

Quote by c3powil at #33628044
Is it a non-solution? Maybe, but it seems like physical change is not a solution either, and I think that therapy helps, even if it isn't a total solution. Maybe they will have to deal with not feeling normal or 'right' all of their lives. That is a shame.

Okay, but why should therapy be used instead of surgery? How do you know it isn't a solution? It's changing the source of their distress to one they would prefer. It isn't currently known why they may regret their surgery, but there are plenty of possible

Quote by c3powil at #33628044
They oppose and contrast because of the effects of the action. Effect 1: I am degraded for expressing my opinion; effect 2: someone is aggrandized for doing something for themselves.

This still doesn't make any sense and I am no closer to understanding why you chose to contrast them.

Quote by c3powil at #33628044
I realize that people going through sex changes is deemed heroic because they are overcoming the fear of judgement by society and whatnot, but I don't think it's heroic by any means. They are doing something for themselves. A hero does something selfless.

That's your definition of what a hero is. The word is often used to describe someone who is brave.

Additionally, "selfless" is an ambivalent and vague word, and it's a common philosophical debate whether or not selfless acts even exist.
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#28
Quote by Carnivean at #33628066
There's enough info in the OP for you to google the studies yourself

Or, ya know, since you're presenting the studies, you should cite them.

However, I found one cohort study that's probably the same one you're using to support your hypothesis. It helps to actually read the study.

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.[39], [40] This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.


I think this is The Guardian article you mentioned.

The most I could get out of it is that the efficacy of sex changes is inconclusive. None of it suggests that "transgender regret is a real thing."
Free Ali
#29
if 20% of the people that undergo such surgery show some form of regret, then that means that 80% doesn't. Assuming that this 80% is just as happy or happier after the surgery than before, I would say that this is a reasonably good result. This of course still means that something should be done to lower this 20% 'unhappiness' rate, but it doesn't mean that there is something inherently wrong with transgender surgery itself
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#30
Trans people need to stop being lumped on the end to LGBQ people because it's a completely different set of issues and society needs to stop viewing it as a "sexual freedom" issue and as something a lot more serious. Because it is.
#31
This is all such a mess. No single person can solve it, and society at large is bickering too much to really get anything done. Letting people be whatever gender they want is fairly straightforward, but it's getting more complicated. Stuff like that woman who had herself blinded. That, I believe, was genuine mental illness. I sympathize with transgendered people, and support their rights, but the line between social justice and mental illness is getting blurry. I really think sex change surgery can help people, but when it's teenagers... If we can't let teenagers get tattoos because they might regret it later, how do we let them do permanent, life changing surgery at an age where they're incapable of making such huge decisions?
#32
I think it's because it's basically impossible for their outside and how the world views them to 100% match what they feel like on the inside. Even if you have surgery you'll be seen as "trans" and not your actual preferred gender. Surgery doesn't single-handedly fix gender dysphoria issues.

It's like that guy who wanted to be a tiger so he had all these weird face surgeries and had whiskers installed and got stripe tattoos and ran around roaring and shit. But he's not a tiger. If he tried to chill at the tiger exhibit at the zoo they'd still eat him.
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#33
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Trans people need to stop being lumped on the end to LGBQ people because it's a completely different set of issues and society needs to stop viewing it as a "sexual freedom" issue and as something a lot more serious. Because it is.


Was about to get mad, was pleasantly surprised instead. It's a very good point
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#34
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#35
Don't cherry pick data. Find as many studies as you can regarding the topic and see which numbers are more likely to be the true values. If you look hard enough you can always find a study that will support one set of ideas over another.

Not joining this discussion otherwise, just making sure everyone stays scientifically literate.
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#36
Quote by Bladez22
Also transgendered is the "wrong" term, trans or just transgender people is better, nitpicking I know, but just a heads up


thank you i wasn't gonna mention it but it was in like every post on the first page and was kinda bugging the shit out of me

#37
not reading anything carnivean posts ever hmu


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#38
I don't really see why people are so upset by the fact that some people might feel they were born in the wrong body and then want to transition. It's honestly none of your fucking business.
#39
I wonder what would happen if someone were to perform a hypothetical study in which an ample sample size of one sex was not allowed to ever see the other gender. Enough people so that by the percentage of transgender people (that we know of) in a population, it would be probable that some of the children would, or should, be trans. Perhaps it would work better with girls. Then they allow them to grow up and be raised solely by women within the experiment. After a certain age when they become conscious of such things, they would examine them for any symptoms of stress over identity. All the while none of them are aware another gender exists. Could any of them be trans?

tbh the whole concept of gender to me is kinda stupid. what constitutes gender is all the concepts in people's minds about typical roles and attitudes and practices that each sex has in their particular culture. all of that stuff is not what it means to be a man or woman. i thought we already all agreed gender roles are stupid; no person should have to comply with fitting into all those traits and things that are expected of them by society, they should be free to be however they want. Gender is just what society associate with males and females, it is not what it means to be male or female. and so i don't think gender is an actual concrete thing, just a weird psychological term that kind of implies all sorts of things about men and women as wholes that i simply don't agree with that is culturally and societally based. and i think most "progressive" thinking people would agree.

So what does it really mean to be male or female?

I'm not sure if this is kind of conflicted by my views on trans peeps. gender dysphoria is obv real and i support HRT or SRS when that stuff increases people's quality of life. but how does one mentally feel like the opposite sex? If you think you feel like like that sex, what basis do you have on what it's like to have the mind of the other sex? It's centered in the concepts and ideas you have on what it means to be that other gender, and often times, it's a very stereotypical conception. i know there are some mental differences; there has to be. but i would think it has to do with different hormones and levels of hormones between the sexes. that is conjecture and could very easily be wrong.

yet the problem remains; that conception still exists, and it's the conception they identify with. sex doesn't inherently denote any personal characteristics other than genitalia; guys can wear lipstick and women can be obsessed with sports or whatever other generic trait associated with men. but therapy doesn't work, and at this time in history gender dysphoria is not just flat out "solved" by the psychology and medical community. there is no better, more helpful option than transitioning that anyone's aware of. if that's the best solution to date then why would anyone oppose it? it's helping bring relief to people. and as the technology increases, this solution will only improve.

#40
Quote by c3powil
I can't imagine what it's like to be trans,

You could have just stopped here; everything else you said just restated.

Quote by EndTheRapture51
Trans people need to stop being lumped on the end to LGBQ people because it's a completely different set of issues and society needs to stop viewing it as a "sexual freedom" issue and as something a lot more serious. Because it is.

This is a good post but tbh I think the reason trans people still willingly maintain that link is because people pay more attention to gay rights.
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