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#3
I was just at the gym and this guy was wearing a "Donald Trump for President" t-shirt and I'm not sure whether or not he was serious. I should ask him.
Free Ali
#5
Nah. Trump, like Sanders, gives people license to not think. They both pretend unicorns are going to save us and people want to believe it.
#6
Quote by Rossenrot
Nah. Trump, like Sanders, gives people license to not think. They both pretend unicorns are going to save us and people want to believe it.


Isn't Sanders a socialist?

I remember during the 80's when America was very anti socalist and patrotic.

Last edited by Axelfox at Oct 9, 2015,
#7
>stalin
>socialist
>or marxist
>le meme arrows
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#8
Quote by Banjocal
>stalin
>socialist
>or marxist
>le meme arrows



i think most of you are kids. Dont' worry. Once you grow up, you will see that Socalism is bad always. Many countries that were socialist,like Vietnam,the former USSR and such had good intentions. But Socialism in it's purest state will aways fail. I could tell you stories i heard from my mom when she fled Vietnam due to it being socialist and how socialism is bad.
#9
Nah I'm saying that the USSR didn't meet the basic principles for BEING Marxist in the first place (this should be obvious - at what point did I make a value judgement of socialism?). If you want to debate collectivism, statism (putting aside your pathetic strawman for a moment - I do not support these things) then we can, but the USSR did not follow Marxism any more than modern neoliberals follow free market capitalism.

Learn your politics before you pull the argument from age fallacy.

EDIT: and if you think the USSR's leaders had good intentions, you are /beyond/ delusional. An argument /might/ be able to be made for Lenin.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
#10
Quote by Axelfox
i think most of you are kids. Dont' worry. Once you grow up, you will see that Socalism is bad always. Many countries that were socialist,like Vietnam,the former USSR and such had good intentions. But Socialism in it's purest state will aways fail. I could tell you stories i heard from my mom when she fled Vietnam due to it being socialist and how socialism is bad.


Fucking hell Axel I knew you were stupid but I didn't know you were this stupid

Quote by Banjocal

EDIT: and if you think the USSR's leaders had good intentions, you are /beyond/ delusional. An argument /might/ be able to be made for Lenin.


What about Trotsky

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#11
I'm less informed on him, to be frank (something I intend to correct in time) - what I've read showed him to be a distinct black sheep among his contemporaries, which explains his exile and assassination. Despite finding some of his ideas pertaining to demsoc and continuous revolution interesting and more agreeable, his association with and moreover being complicit in the actions and movements of said contemporaries is condemnable if only from a base moral position. I imagine he would feel the same in his later life.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
#12
Quote by EndTheRapture51 at #33629468
Fucking hell Axel I knew you were stupid but I didn't know you were this stupid

Don't call our furry friend names.
#13
Quote by Axelfox

I remember during the 80's when America was very anti socalist and patrotic.

Those were dark times. No dank memes and only cocaine to soothe their souls.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#14
Video nicely articulates my thoughts on this. Trump is what America created and deserves.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
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Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
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But our Band is Listana
#16
Quote by Banjocal
Nah I'm saying that the USSR didn't meet the basic principles for BEING Marxist in the first place (this should be obvious - at what point did I make a value judgement of socialism?). If you want to debate collectivism, statism (putting aside your pathetic strawman for a moment - I do not support these things) then we can, but the USSR did not follow Marxism any more than modern neoliberals follow free market capitalism.

Learn your politics before you pull the argument from age fallacy.

EDIT: and if you think the USSR's leaders had good intentions, you are /beyond/ delusional. An argument /might/ be able to be made for Lenin.


Oh, but THAT wasn't REAL socialism.

FFS, when are people going to outgrow this crappy excuse?

The radicals aren't REAL Muslims.

The haters aren't REAL Christians.

The United Soviet SOCIALIST Republic and the National SOCIALISTS weren't REAL Socialists.


Things are defined by how they are practiced, not by how academics think they should be.

On topic, Donald Trump is an embarrassing joke, a pathetic indicator of the puerile state of US politics.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Oct 9, 2015,
#17
Arby you've posted some stupid things

but that takes the cake

for example most socialists standing for election right now are not Stalinists.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#18
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Arby you've posted some stupid things

but that takes the cake


Why, did I gore your personal ox in there somewhere?

Good.

Let's quit making excuses for ideologies as practiced.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#21
You are such a conservative it hurts

No one is making excuses for Stalinism. It was terrible. But it's not how socialism should be practised, and not how people like Banjocal want it to be practised. Same with moderate Islams, agreeable Christians, or even capitalism. The worst of capitalism creates some horrible conditions but I don't see you saying we should end capitalism?

If you take the worst example of every single idea or ideology and use it as the reason to not progress anything, of course things are going to stay the same.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
Last edited by EndTheRapture51 at Oct 9, 2015,
#22
I think Trump is great for this race. First of all, he's making people pay attention to politics who otherwise wouldn't. Secondly, before he started talking about illegal immigration the media wasn't talking about it at all, now thanks to Trump they are finally talking about it.
Quote by Overlord
It's not hard to be nice, but it's nice to be hard
Last edited by Carnivean at Oct 9, 2015,
#23
Quote by EndTheRapture51
You are such a conservative it hurts

No one is making excuses for Stalinism. It was terrible. But it's not how socialism should be practised, and not how people like Banjocal want it to be practised. Same with moderate Islams, agreeable Christians.

If you take the worst example of every single idea or ideology and use it as the reason to not progress anything, of course things are going to stay the same.


No, making excuses is how things don't progress.

The pain you feel is your intellect and reason trying to break out their false imprisonment. Let it happen, it will feel better when you do.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#24
The Russian Revolution was full of Banjocals too, with very nice ideas of how they "wanted" things to be. Didn't stop it from turning into a nightmare.
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#25
That's why we gotta try again and do it better

You learn from your mistakes. I think the sweet spot will come from social democracy and free market solutions together, to come together, coexist and make the world one again.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#26
Capitalism despite its flaws has lifted lots of people out of poverty in the past few decades, so I'd rather stick with that, continue to finesse it with incremental social welfare programs, and drop any "revolution" talk altogether.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#27
"I'LL do socialism better! I know how it can work!" Lol. If you think you can do it better than Mao or Stalin or Castro, who were all extremely intelligent (and much smarter than you or me) then you're fooling yourself.
Quote by Overlord
It's not hard to be nice, but it's nice to be hard
#28
Quote by ErikLensherr
Capitalism despite its flaws has lifted lots of people out of poverty in the past few decades, so I'd rather stick with that, continue to finesse it with incremental social welfare programs, and drop any "revolution" talk altogether.


I think the state should be responsible for infrastructure, health and welfare, whilst the private sector takes care of innovation and luxuries.

ie. shit people need for survival should not be for-profit

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#29
Quote by EndTheRapture51
I think the state should be responsible for infrastructure, health and welfare, whilst the private sector takes care of innovation and luxuries.

ie. shit people need for survival should not be for-profit


I agree for the most part but there just seems to be a good bit of disagreement about what that actually entails...

State-run food production has a pretty bad record.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#30
Private sector farming has its fair share of problems as well ie. growing profitable crops as opposed to the basic wheat and grain crops that are the basis of the worlds diet

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#31
Anyone who is looking at the lack of universal healthcare, or state-run this or that, and going "we just need socialism" is totally missing the obvious truth that capitalism and representative democracy is the best thing that's ever happened to the human race... EVER. Anyone who wants to take that away and revert back to antiquated ways of central planning and total state control.. you're not an angel at all, you're actually the fucking devil.
Quote by Overlord
It's not hard to be nice, but it's nice to be hard
#32
That is why we are advocating social democracy duh

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#33
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Private sector farming has its fair share of problems as well ie. growing profitable crops as opposed to the basic wheat and grain crops that are the basis of the worlds diet


That's only an actual problem if there isn't enough of the staple products, which isn't the case.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#34
I have once again come back to people thinking Marxism can have a class system or autocrat

and people making the 'not real ____ argument is BS' argument, indicating a total lack of knowledge of the core principles of marxism (and some forms of socialism)

and conflating socialism and marxism

and implying that fascistic/petit-borgeois socialism is the standard form of socialism

and implying i endorse socialism

sigh
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
#35
Quote by Banjocal
I have once again come back to people thinking Marxism can have a class system or autocrat

and conflating socialism and marxism

and implying that authoritarian/petit-borgeois socialism is the standard form of socialism

and implying i endorse socialism


sigh


Being misunderstood is a tragedy, but perhaps it's because you're not being sufficiently clear?

If several people misunderstand one person, is it more likely that the fault is in the message or the receiver?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#36
See post #9 of this thread. I actually say that I don't endorse socialism in it (EDIT: see comment on statism and collectivism)! The rest is basic history and theory. Suffice it to say, Marxism as defined by Marx and Engels has as much in common with what Lenin and Stalin laid out as a brick does to a cloud.

There's also you ignoring propaganda, the adoption of communism as a front for the USSR's power grabs that have tarnished the name, rather than the theory.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
#37
Banjocal knows how to do true Marxism. He's different!
Quote by Overlord
It's not hard to be nice, but it's nice to be hard
#38
Not at all. I simply know Marxist theory and how "attempts" at putting it into practice were nothing of the sort. Calm down and think harder - you're strawmanning. I don't even particularly follow Marxism anymore, I simply take exception to calling our current model laissez faire or petit-borgeois socialism -communism. If you cannot effectively define the political ideology/system you debate in a way that is /in keeping/ with existing and established theory in accord with the progeny of said theory (accounting for era, 'waves', etc) you may as well be arguing about cats.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
#39
Quote by Banjocal
See post #9 of this thread. I actually say that I don't endorse socialism in it! The rest is basic history and theory. Suffice it to say, Marxism as defined by Marx and Engels has as much in common with what Lenin and Stalin laid out as a brick does to a cloud.


Marx and Engels - Theory

Lenin and Stalin - Practice
Mao - Practice
Castro - Practice

(The Korean Kims, Pol Pot etc.) - Practice

You've hit on a key problem with the Marxist "plan", the fact that there was NO plan, merely an ideological framework.

The folks noted above took that framework (or the parts that suited them) and created a societal plan.

It didn't work out very well for a LOT of folks.

The number of citizens killed to implement these plans makes western capitalism look like a "duckies and bunnies" ideology by comparison.

If you decry something, and then go on to extoll its virtues later, it's not surprising people won't believe you. It's the theory v. practice problem at a more personal level...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#40
Yes (though that really is a different discussion), except that practice is in /total/ opposition with the theory. A fundamentally left-libertarian philosophy based around public ownership of the MOP, lack of class system, etc cannot be named as such in practice (in any credible way) if it has an autocrat, a class system and a military police that can take what it wants when it wants.

Apples to oranges. An authoritarian brand of socialism - what Marx wrote about in the manifesto and actually named 'petite borgeois socialism', albeit with a fascist twist on top - is what those 'attempts' were, and those dictators knew such well.

If people fail to grasp such a simple difference when there is endless reading material from left and right, top and bottom then that is a question of their ignorance rather than an issue with a theory and its "practice".
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Oct 9, 2015,
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