#1
I guess this question is really only viable in regards to real Fender guitars, since I think it is a thing that Strats and Teles do not exist outside Fender because trademarks and copyright. They are called S and T-style guitars at that point, right? Also I do not know if this question is too loaded, dumb, or dangerous for UG. Not trying to get anyone in trouble, just want some info. I'm fairly uneducated when if comes to trademarks n' such. So this question is directed exactly and only at what Fender produces.

I had this question when browsing this thread: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/anybody-use-strats-with-dual-humbuckers.1627060/

I thought "Well, I have a HH Tele (MIM Fender) that I quite like. Does that count?" What components actually makes a guitar Strat or a Tele? Is it a collaboration of many components? I think, no, it couldn't be, because Fender markets guitars as Strats and Teles that break the traditional mold (?).

For instance, HH Strats and Teles. Generally Strats are viewed as having 3 single coils, Teles have 2. Are HH-equipped guitars not really Strats and Teles? And as far as the pups go, do they have to be a certain type/sound per guitar?

What it seems to come down to for me is really the body/neck style. Fender can market any guitar like what they want, except they wouldn't say a guitar is a Telecaster when it looks like a Strat, and vice versa. Well, they could but that would be going against their own tm's, right? And at that point, is the only way that a Fender guitar is what it is, is according to the tm given to it?
#2
Not a useful discussion, really.

Fender obviously does NOT have a trademark on the body styles.

They're not really about to go to court over the headstock shapes, either, since there's every possibility that they could lose. The names Telecaster and Stratocaster are trademarked, but only the names. And of course "Fender" is trademarked.

In the end, however, there's nothing else significantly different or special.
#3
Given the myriad extant variants of both models I would say the only significant difference is that a Stratocaster is typically equipped with a vibrato and the Telecaster is typically a hardtail.
#4
I thought you were asking about the differences in tone (which is also a good question).

Yeah it's a difficult one- we every so often get quite a similar thread regarding superstrats. "When is it a strat, and when is it a superstrat?"

I'm not sure- as you say, Fender owns the trademark so can more or less do what it likes, so if you take that approach, as you said, it's whatever Fender says it is. Problem with that approach is, as you also said, Fender could make a tele and call it a strat, which seems weird (and not impossible; the first SGs were called "Les Pauls", I think).

Problem with the other approach ("they have certain specifications which make them that style of guitar"), is that you're into the paradox of the heap very, very quickly. The two extremes are pretty obvious (it's obvious when something is definitely a tele, and also obvious when something definitely isn't, for example), but the grey area in the middle is a lot harder to define.

you can do the body style thing, as you said. but again like the "fender can call it what it likes", that can sometimes lead to almost paradoxical conclusions:



By that logic, that's a tele!

or you can say all of them make sense up to a point, but taking any to its logical conclusion is maybe pointless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox#Proposed_resolutions
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Oct 9, 2015,
#8
Quote by Will Lane
That's pretty. But remember, I'm talkin' 'bout Fender licensed guitars.


Again -- they've probably produced something very akin to this at some point since 1951.
And again -- what's the point (or the question)?
#10
I'm also confused about what the question is. You're worried that Fender is somehow violating their own trademarks and that what they call a Tele might actually turn out to be a Strat in a trench coat and fake glasses?

Since you're strictly talking Fenders, then it's whatever Fender puts on the headstock. The question "does it count if..." is a pointless exercise in vagueness. There's no tribunal that decides what "counts" as a Strat, and if there is, it's a group of guys in a room at the Fender Music Corporation, and their word is law. Fender has answered this question for you already by giving its products names.
#11
Quote by Roc8995
I'm also confused about what the question is.
Sorry. I'll try this: What makes a Fender Tele/Strat exactly a Tele or Strat?
Quote by Roc8995
Since you're strictly talking Fenders, then it's whatever Fender puts on the headstock... Fender has answered this question for you already by giving its products names.
That was pretty much what my answer was, I just wasn't sure if that was really the ultimate case. It's what they decide to go with- generally (but as dspellman said could vary) a tele will have a tele body and generally a strat will have a strat body. Everything else varies.
Last edited by Will Lane at Oct 9, 2015,
#12
Give me an example of a theoretical case in which Fender calls something a Strat but it is the 'ultimate case' that it is not a Strat. How could it possibly not "really" be the case, and how would we know?

Fender defines Strats by calling them strats. This is a tautology and I still don't understand how it is confusing from a practical perspective. Maybe an ideological one, but this isn't ultimate-philosophy.com.
#13
Nobody cares.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#14
Quote by Will Lane
Sorry. I'll try this: What makes a Fender Tele/Strat exactly a Tele or Strat?


One has a strat body and the other has a tele body?
#15
Quote by Cajundaddy
Nobody cares.


Pretty much this.

Commence shitstorm.
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youre just being a jerk man.



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#16
Quote by Ippon


I lhave always loved that guitar.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

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#17
Quote by Cajundaddy
Nobody cares.


Yeah really who cares?

Wait! I just replied to this thread does that mean I DO care?

Now I'm confused.

I like Superstrats !
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
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#18
Quote by Dave_Mc
I'm not sure- as you say, Fender owns the trademark so can more or less do what it likes, so if you take that approach, as you said, it's whatever Fender says it is. Problem with that approach is, as you also said, Fender could make a tele and call it a strat, which seems weird (and not impossible; the first SGs were called "Les Pauls", I think).

Yea. IIRC sales on the LP were dropping off, so Gibson pretty much 'hot rodded' it around the start of the 60's. Les wasn't so keen, so they renamed the model.
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#19
Well, what makes a Les Paul and an SG different? Actually, what makes them different from a Flying V and an Explorer and all the different Gibson guitars? They all have basically the same features (at least the standard models). The only thing that changes is the body style. You can make a three single coil SG and it's still an SG because of the body style.

Telecaster and Stratocaster are body styles. Usually if the guitar looks like a Tele, it's a Tele, and if it looks like a Strat, it's a Strat, no matter what features it has.

This is a hybrid and it's called neither Strat or Tele, but "Fender '51".



Well, I don't think Strat and Tele are just body styles. I think they are about the whole appearance of the guitar. That's why I wouldn't call the Fender '51 a Tele or a Strat - it's a hybrid. The body comes from a Strat, a lot of the appearance reminds of a Tele, some of the features come from neither. But whether something is a Tele or a Strat has a lot to do with the body style.

Where do you draw the line? Well, who cares really? Usually if it's hard to tell whether something is a Tele or a Strat, it's called neither. It's up to Fender what they want their guitars to be called.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
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Laney VC30
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 10, 2015,
#20
Quote by Ippon
A real Strat has 3 SCs and double cut body, a Tele, 2 SCs and single cut body.

Not necessarily.There was a double cut Tele produced this year for Fenders '10 for 15" range.There are also Tele's with 3 single coils.Fender can basically do what they want.
#21
Quote by EyeballPaul
Not necessarily.There was a double cut Tele produced this year for Fenders '10 for 15" range.There are also Tele's with 3 single coils.Fender can basically do what they want.


he did say a "real" strat and tele. yes Fender can call them what they want most models that don't conform to the original specs have a qualifier name. this debate isn't just a fender thing though. how many models of the Les Paul have come out that strayed from the "accepted" path or any number of other well established brands and models.

names like Stratocaster and Telecaster have "name" recognition so of course fender is going to use them as much as they can. this seems more about the fact that many guitar players are stuck on certain things and can't get past it. many say "why don't fender, gibson etc do anything new"? well of course when they do the first thing that is said is "well that's not a strat, LP etc" . sice they know they can't win on this they just put out different modols of their flagship guitars and see what happens.
#22
the only main difference between Tele and Strat is feel ..... you can get either sound with either .... it boils down to what feels best to you and that's pretty much it ..... I personally don't Care what Fender the Company decides to name them .....
#23
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Yea. IIRC sales on the LP were dropping off, so Gibson pretty much 'hot rodded' it around the start of the 60's. Les wasn't so keen, so they renamed the model.


yeah i think so

Quote by MaggaraMarine
Well, what makes a Les Paul and an SG different? Actually, what makes them different from a Flying V and an Explorer and all the different Gibson guitars? They all have basically the same features (at least the standard models). The only thing that changes is the body style. You can make a three single coil SG and it's still an SG because of the body style.

Telecaster and Stratocaster are body styles. Usually if the guitar looks like a Tele, it's a Tele, and if it looks like a Strat, it's a Strat, no matter what features it has.

This is a hybrid and it's called neither Strat or Tele, but "Fender '51".



Well, I don't think Strat and Tele are just body styles. I think they are about the whole appearance of the guitar. That's why I wouldn't call the Fender '51 a Tele or a Strat - it's a hybrid. The body comes from a Strat, a lot of the appearance reminds of a Tele, some of the features come from neither. But whether something is a Tele or a Strat has a lot to do with the body style.

Where do you draw the line? Well, who cares really? Usually if it's hard to tell whether something is a Tele or a Strat, it's called neither. It's up to Fender what they want their guitars to be called.


Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at- I'd tend to use a bit of each argument.

Quote by Fumble fingers
the only main difference between Tele and Strat is feel ..... you can get either sound with either .... it boils down to what feels best to you and that's pretty much it ..... I personally don't Care what Fender the Company decides to name them .....


how do you get the strat's middle pickup sound on a tele? or the in-between settings?
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#24
Well you order your tele with a middle pick up is how you do it , like I said you can make either sound like either ,

G&L has made some tele pickups for strats for Alley Cat Music , tele route , tele controls and everything right on a strat body

the normal 5 way selecter and expander switch to add all three pick ups or just neck/bridge
http://www.glguitars.com/instruments/USA/guitars/asat-classic-s/index.asp
Last edited by Fumble fingers at Oct 10, 2015,
#25
Quote by Fumble fingers
Well you order your tele with a middle pick up is how you do it , like I said you can make either sound like either ,

Well, duh.

You can add three single coils to a Les Paul and make it sound pretty close to a Strat. I still wouldn't say Les Pauls sound like Strats.

By the same logic you could say Telecaster is the best metal guitar. But that's simply not true, unless you upgrade your pickups. And that's when the body shape doesn't matter any more. Having a Flying V body shape doesn't magically turn your guitar into a metal guitar, and that's obvious. When we are talking about how guitars sound, we are usually talking about normal, not modified/custom guitars. When people say Telecasters are not good for metal, they are obviously talking about normal stock Telecasters. Similarly when people are talking about the Telecaster tone and the Stratocaster tone, they are referring to stock guitars. And they do sound different.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 10, 2015,
#26
the scale length would make the LP sound different , not so much strat verses tele though , it still gets down to feel
#27
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Well, what makes a Les Paul and an SG different? Actually, what makes them different from a Flying V and an Explorer and all the different Gibson guitars? They all have basically the same features (at least the standard models). The only thing that changes is the body style. You can make a three single coil SG and it's still an SG because of the body style.

Telecaster and Stratocaster are body styles. Usually if the guitar looks like a Tele, it's a Tele, and if it looks like a Strat, it's a Strat, no matter what features it has.

This is a hybrid and it's called neither Strat or Tele, but "Fender '51".



Well, I don't think Strat and Tele are just body styles. I think they are about the whole appearance of the guitar. That's why I wouldn't call the Fender '51 a Tele or a Strat - it's a hybrid. The body comes from a Strat, a lot of the appearance reminds of a Tele, some of the features come from neither. But whether something is a Tele or a Strat has a lot to do with the body style.

Where do you draw the line? Well, who cares really? Usually if it's hard to tell whether something is a Tele or a Strat, it's called neither. It's up to Fender what they want their guitars to be called.

I believe Squier did it first. It was so popular with a fringe group it spawned a dedicated forum. It was discontinued, closed out at $70 (spammed the forum back then), regularly sold for 150 on eBay after, and brought back.



Quote by EyeballPaul
Not necessarily.There was a double cut Tele produced this year for Fenders '10 for 15" range.There are also Tele's with 3 single coils.Fender can basically do what they want.

Goshdarnit!
#28
@Fumble

Well, that's why I said "pretty close to a Strat". By changing the parts on a Tele, you could make it sound exactly like a Strat.

The point was, when people talk about Tele and Strat tones, they are referring to stock Teles and Strats, not modded or custom ones.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#29
^ +1 (to your previous post as well)
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#30
I totally understand that .... my point was it's about feel ...... if I guy likes tele but wants a strat sound you can buy a tele with pu's like a strat ...... none of us are wrong except for Dave saying a you can't buy a tele that sounds like a strat
Last edited by Fumble fingers at Oct 11, 2015,
#31
^ Well, that's really not what he said. He asked "how do you get the strat's middle pickup sound on a tele? or the in-between settings?" Of course assuming that it's a stock Telecaster, not a modded one.

Of course you get the middle pickup sound by adding a middle pickup to your Tele. And that should be obvious. But when people are talking about Teles, they are talking about stock Teles that don't have a middle pickup.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#32
I find it funny the Fender 51 is an expensive copy of a great cheap guitar. Squier deserves credit the 51 kicks ass.I have one of the original run and as an added bonus it is stock as the 51 is a great platform to mod the living crap out of.There is another run on the market. Sweetwater has em for 179.00. In fact it is time to grab mine and annoy the neighbors.
Bhaok

The following statement is true. The proceeding statement is false.
#33
Quote by Fumble fingers
I totally understand that .... my point was it's about feel ...... if I guy likes tele but wants a strat sound you can buy a tele with pu's like a strat ...... none of us are wrong except for Dave saying a you can't buy a tele that sounds like a strat


dude i have a tele with a middle pickup FFS I'm hardly going to claim you can't get them when i own one

as MM said, I never said you couldn't get one without a middle pickup- now you're putting words in my mouth and creating a strawman argument to save face. I obviously assumed you meant a stock SS tele, which is what most people mean when they say "tele" without further clarification or elaboration of the specification.

fwiw an SSS tele still doesn't sound *exactly* the same as an SSS strat (with a tremolo, I mean; it may well sound pretty close to a hardtail strat), but it's definitely in the ballpark.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#35
Quote by Fumble fingers
Then why did you ask how to get the middle pickup sound if you already had one ?

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!