#1
Right now im going through the Jody Fisher jazz series. I am at the point where is talks about soloing through the changes. For the examples it talks about soloing through the changes by hitting the roots every chord and using the scale of the 1. My question is how would arpeggios fit into this. There are many arpeggios that the book teaches, but I dont know how to apply using arpeggios in a solo.
#2
Oh and would using the major scale, while hitting the roots be a good way of soloing over standards?
#3
Can't really comment on the particular method you're learning, but hitting the root of every chord is a really boring way of playing jazz.

The arpeggios of each chord can be found within the major scale of the I. It is a pleasing way of arranging the intervals of the major scale.
#4
Here are some basic ideas to follow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6-bv-w9Pj0
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#5
Quote by Patsfan1281
Right now im going through the Jody Fisher jazz series. I am at the point where is talks about soloing through the changes. For the examples it talks about soloing through the changes by hitting the roots every chord and using the scale of the 1. My question is how would arpeggios fit into this. There are many arpeggios that the book teaches, but I dont know how to apply using arpeggios in a solo.

Well, I think finding the chord root is the first step. It's not really an interesting way of soloing if you are hitting chord roots all the time. But you want to know where they are. You want to know where the other chord tones are as well. So after you can find the root, maybe do the same with the 3rd and 5th (and the 7th) of the chord.

How to use arpeggios? Well, arpeggios are just chords played one note at the time. So if the chord progression is ii-V-I in C major (Dm7-G7-Cmaj7), the simplest way to use arpeggios would be Dm7 arpeggio over Dm7 chord, G7 arpeggio over G7 chord, and Cmaj7 arpeggio over Cmaj7 chord. Well, of course that may not sound that interesting either. But arpeggios are just chords. "Play arpeggios" means "play chord tones". The point is, you want to be able to find the chord tones.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 4, 2015,
#6
The first thing you need to do is find a couple of tunes with an easy to follow ii,v,i and learn a few solos. Get some phrases under your fingers from some pros. This will help guide the rest of what you are learning.
#7
A simple way to get going is to play ii-7 arpeggio (e.g. A-7) against both the ii and the V, and move to a chord tone of the I. Another simple trick is to move that ii-7 arpeggio down a semitone over the V (e.g. play Ab-7 against D7), and again then move to a chord tone of the I.

You'll find that people often start playing whatever they choose for the V slightly before the V actually occurs.

Also suggest you create simple backing track (e,g, A-7 D7 Cmaj7 Cmaj7) and simply play the chord tones from C against each of these chords, and ditto using the chord tones of Cmaj7. You'll get some lovely sounds.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Nov 4, 2015,
#8
yep jazz can be very confusing..learning from a book is OK but you cant ask it questions..

yeah scales and arps are a beginning to learning how to solo..it takes time..you have to EXPERIMENT with stuff like this..

over a ii7-V7 in the key of C Dmi7 - G7 CMA

play a backround track..unless you have a well developed ear..hearing the changes is important

start with just the C Scale over them..but start the scale from different notes F D E etc

arpeggios..same thing play the 1 3 5 7 of Dmi & G7 add the 9 11 & 13 tones to the arps start them on different notes D F A C E G B break it down into 3-note riffs ACE EAC DBG and so on

try different scales over the changes try F major Bb Major F7 Bb7 Ab major and Ab7..

go slow with this stuff..break the scales up into 3 or four note riffs and see what sound good against the changes..there are no wrong notes..push ahead experiment and HAVE FUN..its MUSIC not brain surgery
play well

wolf
#9
Quote by reverb66
The first thing you need to do is find a couple of tunes with an easy to follow ii,v,i and learn a few solos. Get some phrases under your fingers from some pros. This will help guide the rest of what you are learning.

Who or what Rhythm Changes songs would you ereccomend for someone like me, a begginer. I really like Charlie Parker and have his Omini Book, but I dont if that would be too advanced for me at this stage.
#10
I don't think that's an exercise I would ever really assign to anyone I was teaching guitar, but it's not a bad one.

As for the arpeggios what is technically an arpeggio, is to play the chord note by note individually up or down.

On guitar, you can find resources that show you those.

I personally don't really ever use those at this point, but I frequently arpegggiate chord shapes, which is a bit different, and that's just playing the individual notes of a chord shape in order. But I know a lot of chord voicings, so I could probably piece together an arpeggio without too much effort, and may do so on the fly, but it's not something I worry too much about.

I look at chord shapes a lot, but not just the ones of the chord playing, unless I'm playing on my own, and need to carry the harmony as well as the solo, I don't pay much attention to what chord is playing, personally. I just go by ear.

But it is definitely good to be able to play the key scale from every degree position for sure. Here you will only practice 3, if all your roots are on the low E. If you practice in all major voicings of each chord, then you'd cover a lot more of the neck, but I think you'd still be missing some positions, like vi on the low E.

EDIT: no wait, the vi on low E would be covered by the ii on the A string. Maybe it would cover the whole neck, Idk.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Nov 4, 2015,
#11
Quote by Patsfan1281
Who or what Rhythm Changes songs would you ereccomend for someone like me, a begginer. I really like Charlie Parker and have his Omini Book, but I dont if that would be too advanced for me at this stage.
Well, the Omnibook contains his solos as well as heads (melodies).

All you really need is the chord sequence (in Bb, for the most common key), but if you wanted a melody to go with it - and melodies do make useful jumping off points for solos - you could do worse than start with I Got Rhythm itself!
#12
Quote by Patsfan1281
Right now im going through the Jody Fisher jazz series. I am at the point where is talks about soloing through the changes. For the examples it talks about soloing through the changes by hitting the roots every chord and using the scale of the 1. My question is how would arpeggios fit into this. There are many arpeggios that the book teaches, but I don't know how to apply using arpeggios in a solo.

First thing you should make sure you know is all the possible shapes for each chord in the sequence.
Eg, for Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, you should know shapes (maybe just partial ones) all over the neck for all three. If you don't, then get to work with that first! Pick any position on the neck and work out shapes for all three in the same position (you never need to jump up or down the neck to get to the next chord).

Hitting the roots of each chord is a kind of "training wheels" exercise. It's to confirm that you know where the roots all are, to begin with - and also to get the sound of the root movement in your head, so you start to recognise that sound when you hear it (in the bass usually).

After playing all the roots, then go through all the 5ths, all the 3rds and all the 7ths. Again, this is primarily to make sure you know where they all are.
(In some famous jazz standards, such as Autumn Leaves and All the Things You Are, the melody moves through the 3rds of each chord.)
Then - maybe the most profitable exercise - go through the "guide tones". This is where you go from the 3rd of one chord to the 7th of the next and vice versa. You should find (in most jazz tunes) that you get gentle descending lines: sometimes the note is the same from chord to chord, sometimes it falls a half-step, sometimes a whole step.
Parallel with that, you could combine roots and 5ths: the 5th of one chord will usually drop a whole step (sometimes a half-step) to the root of the next chord. The root of one chord is likely to be the 5th of the next. This is more the bass player's territory but, again, these are important patterns to get familiar with on your instrument.

As for "using the scale of the I", that's what you are doing anyway with this exercise. The ii-V-I between them spell out the whole scale. So, you may start with the arpeggio of each chord (1-3-5-7), but the 2-4-6 notes (or 9-11-13) come from the other chords. I.e., if you know your chords, those notes are already under your fingers. Four chord tones, three passing notes taken from the other chords: that's how to think of the "scale of the I", rather than as an undifferentiated 7-note series or pattern.
IOW, you don't start with a scale and "apply" it to the chords. You start from the chords, and notice that the whole scale is contained in them, and it's the chords that give it meaning and shape.
#13
Quote by fingrpikingood


As for the arpeggios what is technically an arpeggio, is to play the chord note by note individually up or down.



The definition of arpeggio does not enforce an ordering ... although they are often played like this. But half the fun is jumping around. Lot of players will create a pattern using (some of) the chord tones, and then sequence that.

It's less restrictive just to think of playing (some of) a chord harmonically (all at same time) or melodically
#14
Quote by Patsfan1281
Who or what Rhythm Changes songs would you ereccomend for someone like me, a begginer. I really like Charlie Parker and have his Omini Book, but I dont if that would be too advanced for me at this stage.


Stay away from Charlie Parker! Much too advanced to start- you need to go old, real old - Charlie Christian is where I would start - it's slow so you can actually hear what's going on. Grant Green as well - just look through their discography and find something that speaks to you. It's very important to learn these concepts by studying actual music. Books, videos etc are fine, but if you want to be good at jazz you need to learn some real tunes - use the books to supplement.
#15
Quote by Patsfan1281
Who or what Rhythm Changes songs would you ereccomend for someone like me, a begginer. I really like Charlie Parker and have his Omini Book, but I dont if that would be too advanced for me at this stage.
More on rhythm changes here, including some ideas for chord voicings and melodic phrases:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/rhythm_changes.html
NB: in the "chord study" (scroll down 2/3), not all the symbols are complete - eg some of them have 9ths added where the symbol just says "7" (not an uncommon practice in jazz). Remember the 9ths are not necessary, but the 7ths are.
If you don't know which note is which in these shapes, this may be too advanced for you.
#16
Quote by jerrykramskoy
The definition of arpeggio does not enforce an ordering ... although they are often played like this. But half the fun is jumping around. Lot of players will create a pattern using (some of) the chord tones, and then sequence that.

It's less restrictive just to think of playing (some of) a chord harmonically (all at same time) or melodically


I actually wasn't sure about that when I said it, but the arpeggio itself, is the notes in order up and down. When you learn it on guitar. That's what makes it different than an arpeggiated chord. On piano it's the same, but if you look in guitar books for arpeggios, they give you the pattern so you can play all of the notes in the order that they are in the chord, rather than just a pattern with the notes of the chord in it, like you get with a chord shape.

I was just kind of lazy and didn't feel like explaining all that I guess. At the end of the day, everything you learn is just patterns that you can do whatever you want with.
#17
The way I usually do it:

A melody is made up of steps and leaps. C to D is a step. C to F is a leap. A leap can be an interval of a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th.
Playing over chord changes I usually leap from the chord tones, step from non-chord tones.

So in C major, your first chord is Dm7. You can start on an F, leap from there to another note, then play a few steps. Maybe land on an A on the first beat of the G7 chord, step up to B, then leap to F.
Lines like this will fit the chords, but they'll also sound interesting, because of all the leaps.
Last edited by scarletcantos at Nov 6, 2015,
#18
Quote by reverb66
Stay away from Charlie Parker! Much too advanced to start- you need to go old, real old - Charlie Christian is where I would start - it's slow so you can actually hear what's going on. Grant Green as well - just look through their discography and find something that speaks to you. It's very important to learn these concepts by studying actual music. Books, videos etc are fine, but if you want to be good at jazz you need to learn some real tunes - use the books to supplement.


Anything you can rec from Charlie Christain?
#19
Quote by Patsfan1281
Anything you can rec from Charlie Christain?


Not specifically, I had a best of double album - but I'm not seeing it anywhere online. Any compilation album should do ( he wasn't around for very long - died young). It takes a bit of getting used to ( it's very old!) but he's a great starting point because he isn't overly technical and has great manageable phrasing.
#20
Quote by reverb66
Not specifically, I had a best of double album - but I'm not seeing it anywhere online. Any compilation album should do ( he wasn't around for very long - died young). It takes a bit of getting used to ( it's very old!) but he's a great starting point because he isn't overly technical and has great manageable phrasing.


Oh no. I like Charlie too, its just that I know he dies young and I only know a handful og his stuff. But I will shuffle him on spotify and listen to more of him. I really want to get more into playing Bebop and I can see what you mean by starting with him. Kinda like if you want to play rock you would start with blues and Chuck Berry stuff.

But right now I will try to get a transcription of Solo Flight by him, so if you happen to find one link me!
#21
I highly recommend Charlie Christian! He wasn't in that band very long, you are right, but that's just it, for such a short amount of time, he was a very influential jazz guitarist of note. I really like Shivers - great tune to learn, and the phrasing is within reach, but has a lot of smart lines.

Best,

Sean