#2
F#m-F#m/A-D-C#sus-C#/E#

The C# major chord is the dominant chord. Not a secondary dominant. It comes from the harmonic minor scale.
Quote by AlanHB
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#3
Quote by MaggaraMarine
F#m-F#m/A-D-C#sus-C#/E#

The C# major chord is the dominant chord. Not a secondary dominant. It comes from the harmonic minor scale.


wouldn't the C# just be the 6th and then the note that comes from harmonic minor be the e#? since the C #would be a minor chord if it's from the f# minor scale, then when it's change to a dominant chord that's where the E# comes from borrowing from harmonic minor?
#4
Counting starts with root. F#-F# is unison or first. F#-C# is fifth.

Harmonic minor doesn't exist as a scale more than as a result of harmonic practices (read chords). Making sevenths sharp (rel to minor, do E# as opposed to E) creates a leading tone and incentive for resolution upwards.

(being lazy with articles atm)
#5
Quote by enloartworks
wouldn't the C# just be the 6th and then the note that comes from harmonic minor be the e#? since the C #would be a minor chord if it's from the f# minor scale, then when it's change to a dominant chord that's where the E# comes from borrowing from harmonic minor?

Think of the C# major chord is a way of making the F#m sound stronger as the tonic chord. (And it is the tonic. A isn't.)

In the key of F# minor (which this is), C#m makes a rather weak sounding V chord (at least from a classical, key-based perspective). So the 7th of the scale (E) is raised to provide a leading tone to F#. That's the practice known as "harmonic minor".
As Neo says, harmonic minor is not exactly a scale in its own right, it's the practice of raising the 7th scale degree (of natural minor) to provide a leading tone and a major V chord, to strengthen the V-i cadence.
In a sense, you could see it as borrowing the V from the parallel major (F# major in this case).

Remember this is normal in minor keys. A major (or dom7) V chord is conventional - "common practice" - not breaking a rule of any kind. The key of A minor will have an E or E7 more often than it will have Em.
Last edited by jongtr at Nov 10, 2015,
#6
Quote by jongtr
Think of the C# major chord is a way of making the F#m sound stronger as the tonic chord. (And it is the tonic. A isn't.)

In the key of F# minor (which this is), C#m makes a rather weak sounding V chord (at least from a classical, key-based perspective). So the 7th of the scale (E) is raised to provide a leading tone to F#. That's the practice known as "harmonic minor".
As Neo says, harmonic minor is not exactly a scale in its own right, it's the practice of raising the 7th scale degree (of natural minor) to provide a leading tone and a major V chord, to strengthen the V-i cadence.
In a sense, you could see it as borrowing the V from the parallel major (F# major in this case).

Remember this is normal in minor keys. A major (or dom7) V chord is conventional - "common practice" - not breaking a rule of any kind. The key of A minor will have an E or E7 more often than it will have Em.


this is what i meant to say lol, so that's the use of a harmonic minor scale? or is there more?
#7
Quote by enloartworks
this is what i meant to say lol, so that's the use of a harmonic minor scale? or is there more?
Not really. I was just repeating the earlier point that the key here is F# minor, not A major, so you count F# as "1", and C# is then the primary dominant (V), not secondary.
But yes, harmonic minor. There's no need to think of it as a whole scale, although lots of people do, and it's no big deal.
The "minor key" is really based on one scale, it just has variable 6th and 7th degrees.
(Rather like the blues has a variable 3rd .)
Last edited by jongtr at Nov 10, 2015,
#8
Yeah, i see the f# as the one.them changing the 5 into a dom7 instead of a minor chord making use of harmonic minor?
Where do secondary dom come into play?
#9
Yes, but only functionally.

Secondary dominants have nothing to do with the global tonic. They temporarily tonicize the chord that it should resolve to.

See "Grande amore", Il Volo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1f6o1HQBvg

Verse.
Fm | Db/F | Eb/F | Db/F Fm |
Fm | Db/F | Eb/G | Db/Ab Ab | (into Ab)
C C7 | Fsus4/C Fm/C | Bdim7 G7/B | Csus4 C | (into C)
Fm

Home key is still Fm, but temporary strays into Ab then C.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#10
As said above, secondary dominants are used for "tonicization". It's kind of a short modulation to another key without actually changing the key - you pretty much immediately come back to the original key.

Let's say we are in C major. We can precede any chord in C major (except for Bm7b5, because a diminished chord can't really be the tonic - it will just not sound like a secondary dominant) with a dominant chord of that key (so we would treat that chord as a temporary tonic).

Let's say we have a simple progression in C major like C-Am-F-G-C. If we wanted to add secondary dominants to the progression, we could add a dominant 7th chord (a fifth above the chord) in front of every chord in the progression. Our progression would become C-E7-Am-C7-F-D7-G-G7-C. So, E7 is the dominant of Am, C7 is the dominant of F, D7 is the dominant of G and G7 is the dominant of C. All of them are secondary dominants except for G7 which is the dominant of the key - it's not a secondary dominant, it is The dominant. All the dominant chords lead nicely to the next chord in the progression. It adds some color to the progression.

You of course don't need to put a secondary dominant in front of every chord in the progression. That was just an example.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 11, 2015,
#11
Quote by MaggaraMarine
As said above, secondary dominants are used for "tonicization". It's kind of a short modulation to another key without actually changing the key - you pretty much immediately come back to the original key.

Let's say we are in C major. We can precede any chord in C major (except for Bm7b5, because a diminished chord can't really be the tonic - it will just not sound like a secondary dominant) with a dominant chord of that key (so we would treat that chord as a temporary tonic).

Let's say we have a simple progression in C major like C-Am-F-G-C. If we wanted to add secondary dominants to the progression, we could add a dominant 7th chord (a fifth above the chord) in front of every chord in the progression. Our progression would become C-E7-Am-C7-F-D7-G-G7-C. So, E7 is the dominant of Am, C7 is the dominant of F, D7 is the dominant of G and G7 is the dominant of C. All of them are secondary dominants except for G7 which is the dominant of the key - it's not a secondary dominant, it is The dominant. All the dominant chords lead nicely to the next chord in the progression. It adds some color to the progression.

You of course don't need to put a secondary dominant in front of every chord in the progression. That was just an example.



Very well explained man.i watched a video on it and it helped as well.thanks for the explanation. So over all the profession in the original video isnt Very complex it seems
#12
Quote by enloartworks
So over all the profession in the original video isnt Very complex it seems
Well, the "profession" may or may not be complex... (I guess there's a lot more to the job than playing guitar....)

As for the progression.... No. That kind of music is not really about complex harmony!
You want complex harmony, you go to jazz or classical .

(No value judgement there. Music doesn't need complex harmony to be good .)
Last edited by jongtr at Nov 11, 2015,
#13
Quote by enloartworks
Very well explained man.i watched a video on it and it helped as well.thanks for the explanation. So over all the profession in the original video isnt Very complex it seems

Yeah, it's pretty basic minor stuff.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
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Yamaha P115
#15
Haha it happens.

Here is one of the most famous songs with secondary dominants:

https://youtu.be/u68Z2B36-3c

First two verses:
Dm G | C7 F |
i V/(V/III) V7/III III
Dm Bb | C7 F |
i (IV | V )/III III
Dm G | C7 F |
i V/(V/III) V7/III III
Dm Bb | A Dm |
i VI V i

Dm G | C7 F |
i V/(V/III) V7/III III
Dm Bb | C7 F |
i (IV | V )/III III
Dm G | C7 F |
i V/(V/III) V7/III III
Dm Bb | A D |
i VI V I (!)

The Picardy-esque ending of verse 2 beckons a section in the parallel major.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something