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This is stupid and not a conversation worth having
19 76%
Yeah, it raises some decent points I guess
6 24%
Voters: 25.
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#1
Hey, are you a metal fan? no? oh, ok

Here's an interesting article I read about the culture of heavy metal anyway.
I'd say there's some merit to it. What do you think?

http://www.houstonpress.com/music/metals-problem-with-women-is-not-going-away-anytime-soon-7858411

Metal's Problem With Women Is Not Going Away Any Time Soon

The realm of heavy metal has been virtually an all-boys club since, well, forever. From its glorious arrival with the doom-laden archetype of Black Sabbath, fans have flocked in droves to hear musical elements that have made metal both loved and hated: intricate guitar riffs, double-bass drum blastbeats, and lyrical motifs of rebellion, death and destruction - and, occasionally, violent sexual themes against women.

While aggression against women may have been overlooked or written off as a gimmick in the 1970s and '80s, in 2015 metal's derogatory lyrical content is only one of the problems that need to be addressed. Many bands either openly encourage violence against women or fail to support legitimate female fandom, but it certainly doesn't end there. Female metal bands are rarely booked on national tours and practically ignored by the media - and worse, the ones who make it that far get ridiculed or sexualized.

The fact is, metal is long overdue for an overhaul. Its lyrical themes of anti-establishment struggles and pervasive gloom may prevail, and certainly the musical style is non-negotiable, but its exclusion of women and rampant sexual aggression needs a serious reckoning.

Go ahead, boys, dig your Slayer Vans in the sand, but if metal doesn't change to reflect its more diverse audience, it could vanquish itself into irrelevancy. Do you really think excluding women will further metal as a sustainable art? No. Keep excluding women, and it will be a dead genre in 50 years - or an outdated, embarrassingly nostalgic subclass of musical racism and sexism.

Even metal fandom is exclusive. Women who are metal fans come under the constant scrutiny of male metal fans, and have their motives questioned. They're either assumed to be a poser or a girlfriend, no more than a fan by association. Often they must prove their fandom to suspicious men who require authenticity. Ridiculous.

Metal is fast, aggressive and angry, but that doesn't mean it can't appeal to women. In fact, it appeals to many people because (believe it or not) these characteristics have been scientifically proven to be a psychological benefit . Women have every right to be at a metal show, whether on the stage or in the pit. And none of them have to prove themselves to anyone... ever.

For many years, metal's message to women has been one of assignment: you can be a groupie, but not a fan or serious musician. It has failed to support women in any capacity besides as live props - objects, not subjects. It's also guilty of encouraging a Hooters-like, bikini-model, stripper-girl atmosphere in general. And while there's nothing wrong with women in bikinis, there is something wrong if that's the only role metal will allow them to play. Keep in mind, this is 2015.

Female Musicians Need Not Apply

But it's not just fandom where groups are marginalized and subjugated. Female metal musicians face a tougher climb to the spotlight than male musicians. Worse, women rarely headline a heavy-metal tour; this past spring's Halestorm/Pretty Reckless tour being the exception that proves the rule. But this year's Rockstar Mayhem Festival hosted 13 bands, with two female band members between them: Reba Meyers of Code Orange and Liv Jagrell of Sister Sin. Both appeared on the Victory Records side stage; no female musicians were on the main stage. The Vans Warped Tour did considerably better, but women were still tokens. Much has already been said about their absence in the summer’s largest touring package.

Perhaps the closest a female-fronted act came to headlining a metal package was Halestorm at Rocklahoma. That festival, held this past May east of Tulsa, amazingly hosted at least five bands with female members... out of more than 100. (Did I mention it's 2015?)

While promoters certainly fail women, most media coverage of female metal musicians merely treats them as novelties. As it persists in seeing them as unconventional or worse, in purely sexual terms, women are still not equal. Instead they are either called out for perceived 'slutty' clothing or not covered at all due to being (allegedly) not sexy enough.

Women can't win. What coverage female musicians do get often focuses on sideshow, gimmicky crap. For example, BABYMETAL - a band only a pedophile could love - gets more press than many outstanding women musicians. Too many women whose talents are spotlight-worthy remain unknown. Can you name 20 metal acts with at least one female member? Ten? Even five? Didn't think so.

Furthermore, metal media coverage is thoroughly guilty of Male Gaze: metal media outlets believe their target audience is male-exclusive, and continue to design articles, content and coverage around that false perception. That's easy to do when your journalists are all white males.

And even if metal fans are principally male, why are they reluctant to cheer for a female-fronted band? Never fail to understand this: because being a fan is an act of submission. It's the same reason men can't wait destroy a successful female player in a role-playing video game. Lower-ranked males despise the disruption in hierarchy represented by a successful female. They're jealous, and don't want to give up power.

Or worse, they either fail to see the common humanity in a female or believe they're just not worth hearing. The empathy gap in metal is so enormous that the problem is systemic. Until metal fans can appreciate metal for the music and not just who plays it, metal will remain the dark fraternity it is.

And, of course, lyrically speaking, metal has a big problem with its promotion of rape.

True, that's not always the case, and not every single song is about raping women (and children). But even if those themes are only occasional, isn't even one song promoting rape one too many?

Why are bands writing these uber-violent themes anyway? Shawna Potter, vocalist of the Baltimore-based feminist punk band, War on Women says, 'When men in bands write misogynistic or sexist lyrics, they're just writing what they know. Society has shaped us to believe that women are second-class citizens, here [on Earth] for men's pleasure and that men are entitled to women's bodies.'

The problem is nobody is taking offense to these violent lyrical themes. And if they are, they're not speaking up about it. Alice Cooper was once quoted as saying, 'There's more blood in Macbeth than in my shows, and that's required school reading.'

Yet there's a stark contrast between the macabre theatrics of Cooper's guillotine and lyrics that detail physically ripping open a woman through forced sexual contact and watching her die as a result. And even if Macbeth was bloody, it was a statement on the will to power and the attraction to corruption... and did Alice Cooper just compare himself to Shakespeare?

In response to the backlash against ultra-violent lyrics, Cannibal Corpse singer George Fisher said, 'We don't sing about politics. We don't sing about religion.'

He continued: 'Yeah, it's about killing people, but it's not promoting it at all. Basically these are fictional stories and that's it. And anyone who gets upset about it is ridiculous… when I see these people bitch about video games like Grand Theft Auto: Vice City and Manhunt, and how violent they are. Hey listen, man - it's fiction. It's fiction. [When people say] 'How can you do that type of music?' Because I know it's fiction! If some kid can't tell the difference between reality and fiction, then he's got a problem. And that could be attributed to his parents. It's time that people start taking some responsibility.'

Sure. If you sing about celebrating murder, you are promoting it. And when you sing something, from oh, let's say, 'Butchered at Birth' - 'Mother ripped apart / Smashing in her face / My knife cutting holes / Fucking her remains' - then you own it. You are responsible for it because you created it. Cut the doublespeak, already.



#2

Lyrical Shifts

Believe it or not, some bands do self-correct. Some men will stand up for women and understand that women can be equal partners in artistic expression, even in death metal. We love those men.

Speaking to Andy Marsh, guitarist for Thy Art Is Murder, he makes no attempts at backpedaling or defending the lyrical content of his band's 2008 release, 'Infinite Death,' which contains lyrics like, 'I'm inflicting bloodshed upon bitches / just because I hate the female race... women were born to be fucked.' In fact, he agrees they were abhorrent, and his level of discomfort with the band's previous sexism was apparent.

'I was not in the band [when those lyrics were written],' he says today. 'And 100 percent that's [misogyny]... something I could never get behind [while being] in the band.'

When asked if they will ever play lyrics about raping, torturing and murdering women again, Marsh demurs:

'It's one of those things where you become known for them early on in your career and then either the artists grow sick of them or maybe they're embarrassed by them, and then they write better songs. Or they just move into a different style. We don't like playing those songs and we choose not to play those songs, but occasionally we may perform them for the fans, but we don't enjoy it. I'd say we'd played stuff off the 'Adversary' and 'Infinite Death' only a handful of times in the past three years.

Even Whitechapel, due at Houston's Scout Bar next Monday, has followed suit. The band responsible for such lyrics as 'I ripped her fucking limb from limb,' from 2006 LP 'Somatic Defilement' ('Vicer Exciser'), has now turned away from misogynistic lyrical content. It wasn't easy move for a band named after the area of London where Jack The Ripper murdered at least five women, but the band felt it was a necessary move. (Right on.)

'We wanted something more mature,' says guitarist Alex Wade about the changes in Whitechapel's content. 'As we get older, we're [aware] of how we want to represent ourselves with the band. When we were younger, we didn't care if we had crazy lyrics... well, now it's like, I'm 29 years old and I love my mother, so... I don't want to put stuff out there that she would read and be like, 'Alex, what are you doing?''

Some bands simply use the violent imagery of their artwork for shock value only. Houston's own Diminished uses some of the most offensive and grotesque artwork ever witnessed with pictures of women in bondage, raped, bound or dismembered to illustrate song titles like "Regurgitating Rotten Semen." Controversy is not new to them, and their Facebook page has been reported for supporting graphically violent content.

"Look, my own mother hates the band," explains vocalist Michael Pinkard. "It's just not her style. We want to get a reaction out of people. We consider ourselves part of the horror genre. We're here to be upsetting and violent. But I also don't want to be painted unfairly. We sing about political issues, too. We have an entire album called Origin of Apocalypse about war [and] politics — you know, stuff that isn't so rape-y towards women."

When pressed further if Diminished's artwork promotes rape, Pinkard responded with, "Nope. I have a girlfriend and a daughter, I'd never promote that."

But would the band ever stop singing about violence against women?

"Our lyrical subjects change," Pinkard says. "You know, you have 60 songs about rape and murder, it gets old. You have kids, life happens, you become more mature, you know lyrics change. We mature, our songs mature."

While some bands incorporate gratuitous imagery for the sake of promotion, can fans make the separation? Especially when fans make memes like this? Doubtful.

Who Will Save Women?

Metal is not alone in its ostracism of women — its close cousin, punk rock, was completely revamped 20 years ago. Back in the '90s, female punk fans and musicians are credited for riding the third wave of feminism and forming their very own subgenre, Riot Grrrl, with bands like Bikini Kill, Bratmobile and L7, a spirit that even surfaced in Russia a generation later with the rise of Pussy Riot. When those women wanted opportunities in the punk scene that didn’t already exist, they simply created them. Yet even that scene wasn't created in a vacuum.

It's not just women who need to fight misogyny in music. War On Women's Shawna Potter encourages men to take up the battle as well.

"While women [with people of color and the LGBQT community] must fight for our rights and humanity, men must also fight," she says. "They must [fight] against the insulting notion that they are animals have no self-control. But first, they must see it as insulting, I suppose.

"I can't speak about all genres of music, but many [rock] bands started out as protest music; music meant to call out those in power and challenge the status quo," Potter adds. "Well, there's nothing more status quo than sexism, so if they really wanted to be punk...they'd fight those ideals by championing equality and justice, putting victims of gender-based violence first."

Know this: metal's female musicians and fans will keep claiming a role in the music we love, because we deserve to be here too. Our presence in all categories will continue to grow. We will not go away, we will not remain as props or objects. We have a voice and we will be heard. Women will take their equal share, not because men will relinquish it to them but because it's already theirs. As Kurt Cobain so beautifully predicted in 1994, 'The future of rock belongs to women.'

And besides, it's already 2015.


So, do you think that this is a conversation worth having, or do you strongly disagree?
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#5
Yes, so what, etc.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#6


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#8
Didn't read. I just want to shit on metal music.
"If God exists, there's no way he is French" - Andrea Pirlo

S A D B O Y S
#9
When a band has stupid lyrics about killing or whatever it's a good idea to not take them seriously so it doesn't matter if they are sexist or not. When an album cover has ridiculous crap on it don't take it seriously either.

Lyrics about sexism wouldn't get taken seriously either because who on earth wants to headbang to songs with lyrics like

"Women are equal
They are not just for sex
Be nice to women
they are the best"

Also if a metal band has a hot girl in it they are more likely to get bigger even if they suck. Maybe it's just because people think the girl is hot, but she'll make money from it so whatever.

The end
I have nothing important to say
#10
dumb article. yes metal tends to be a guy thing but there are certainly woman playing it as well. obvously this guy had never been to a hair metal concert in the 80s and there were tons of woman in the audience. extreme metal bands probably not so much. guessing this guy isn't into horror films where woman often don't fair well either. as for headlining big tours well it's not because they are woman. a band has to have a certain degree of success regardless of wh's in it. bands like Warlock (doro pesch) did headline in europe so once again this guy misses the mark
#11
lol

have you seen the Cannibal Corpse album covers?

beyond sexist

they're like necrophila-sexism-gore

all in one

yummy
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^ I've just realised if you say Simple Plan's 2011 effort "Get Your Heart On!" really fast in a Southern American accent, it sounds gross. . .like sexual gross!

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Hello.
I'm looking for professional bongo-ists and triangle-ists to make a Progressive Technical Brutal Death Metal band
(will be called AxOxJxLxAxIxVxXxUxWxZxQxUxRxWxGxJxSxAxLxKxMxNxHxUxGxAxAxWxVxCxBxZxVx)
(Don't even ask what it means)


https://soundcloud.com/95dank



#12
Quote by monwobobbo
dumb article. yes metal tends to be a guy thing but there are certainly woman playing it as well. obvously this guy had never been to a hair metal concert in the 80s and there were tons of woman in the audience. extreme metal bands probably not so much. guessing this guy isn't into horror films where woman often don't fair well either. as for headlining big tours well it's not because they are woman. a band has to have a certain degree of success regardless of wh's in it. bands like Warlock (doro pesch) did headline in europe so once again this guy misses the mark


I agree. There are fewer women headlining Metal concerts because there just aren't that many to choose from.

And there are usually plenty in the audience, so I guess they aren't as offended as the author?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#14
The issue is that metal tends to attract sexists, rather than the other way around. Speaking from experience, you get into metal because you feel like an outsider and girls won't talk to you because you're weird and you get into metal because of that. Metal then becomes those people's outlet, hence violently sexist lyrics and misplaced anger towards women. It's a maturity thing.
#15
Album art is atrocious/obnoxious yes
Quote by ErikLensherr
Did you hear about the cockney Godfather?

He made them an offer they couldn't understand.
#17
ye the album cover is grim af


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#18
metal's just shit really, lbr
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#19
Agreed
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I wish I was American.

~ A Rolling Potato Gathers No Moss ~
#20
Female metal bands are rarely booked on national tours and practically ignored by the media - and worse, the ones who make it that far get ridiculed or sexualized.


That's because they're gimmicky and the pretty much always suck


Jesus Christ, whoever wrote this article is a fucking idiot
Check out my band Disturbed
Last edited by StewieSwan at Nov 13, 2015,
#21
A genre can't be sexist, it's an idea about ordering sounds of music. Metal culture might have some nuances of hatred towards females.

And hatred towards generally everything, including themselves. It's like saying metal is anti-christian when it's only a subsection within that is. The parts do not equal the whole (Sounds sexier when I say it out loud).

You have to spend time within metal to know about it. A lot of time. Something none of you have done adequately, and surely don't wish to do.

It says "organic milk" on the label. I just want to point out that metalheads are clearly more organic and natural because of a fee album covers.
#23
There are some highly questionable things that metal aestheticises and then attempts to cast off as pure image - I condemn such a historically and culturally ignorant appraisal of art.

I would say that, based on my experience, the culture surrounding metal and where prejudices take place depend on location as well as genre. It's not called NSBM for no reason. On the other hand, I'm yet to come across bigotry in drone metal.

When it comes to violent lyrics aimed towards women, there is a degree of intent + interpretation (I would not argue certain transgressive artists to be sexist despite their HIGHLY aggressive depictions of the female body), and I don't regard doing it for the edge to be a decent excuse on a creative level, let alone a social one.

But at the end of the day, I don't really care. I would be a hypocrite to condemn consumption of such work while enjoying Whitehouse and Prurient.
they're coming to take me away
ha-haaa
Last edited by Banjocal at Nov 13, 2015,
#24
There are plenty of metal bands who aren't sexist like generally you can probably find the same level of sexism in rap music, in pop punk etc.
#25
I'd say metal is an alcoholic before it is sexist.
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You don't

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"Why are we here?"


"Plastic... asshole."
#26
A lot of those shitty extreme metal bands just try to be as edgy as possible, using the shock value for attention. Calling the bands sexist isn't gonna make them want to stop unless they eventually grow out of it.

Also lol, that album cover..
#27
It's allllllll about context. Everything is. The only real problem is people nit picking every single detail and lumping large groups together just so they can complain about something for one reason or another.

Nothing is offensive if no one take offense to it.
#29
Quote by GuitarGod_92
Metal is for dorks anyway who gives a shit



you like anime
Check out my band Disturbed
#30
Cuteness aside i think mouse droppings and piss is actually a health hazard, so get it sorted out soon
#31
Quote by StewieSwan
you like anime

Yeah but barely

And I mean you like Star Trek so ya know we could go in crcles here
#32
Quote by E7#9
Cuteness aside i think mouse droppings and piss is actually a health hazard, so get it sorted out soon

Way to post in the wrong thread, buddy
#33
The mouse is more afraid of you than you are of it.

Get some traps in the morning. Just remember to take the mouse a good long way away before you let it out, so it becomes someone other sap's problem.
Quote by Diemon Dave
Don't go ninjerin nobody don't need ninjerin'
#35
Quote by slapsymcdougal
The mouse is more afraid of you than you are of it.

Get some traps in the morning. Just remember to take the mouse a good long way away before you let it out, so it becomes someone other sap's problem.


Wrong thread?
#36
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Wrong thread?

So it would seem.

Either that or I offended a wizard or something.
Quote by Diemon Dave
Don't go ninjerin nobody don't need ninjerin'
#37
idk maybe make a trail of cheese leading out of the front door?
they're coming to take me away
ha-haaa
#39
Quote by MeTallIcA313
Are mice sexist?

Help, I just noticed there's a metal in my house?
Quote by Diemon Dave
Don't go ninjerin nobody don't need ninjerin'
#40
Quote by slapsymcdougal at #33681003
Help, I just noticed there's a metal in my house?

Get yourself a box, string tied to a stick and a bunch of cds with illegible logos on them and play the waiting game. That should help you catch those pesky metalheads.
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