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#2
kinda fucked

I have no problems with them believing these things, but if you got to a country where any of this is considered taboo and partake in it and wonder why you're prosecuted you're an idiot
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#3
It is interesting how the liberals of the west like to ignore how backwards and awful "moderate" muslims are on issues like women's rights and LGBT rights.


Crucify the fuck out of a Christian that doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, but let's just call the burqa "their culture" and not criticize it.
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#4
Quote by StewieSwan
It is interesting how the liberals of the west like to ignore how backwards and awful "moderate" muslims are on issues like women's rights and LGBT rights.


Crucify the fuck out of a Christian that doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, but let's just call the burqa "their culture" and not criticize it.


Religious people being intolerant? never
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
#5
Quote by Bladez22
Religious people being intolerant? never



It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"
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#6
Quote by StewieSwan
It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"


I do find it a little amusing yeah. I remember talking to Neo about it in another thread a few months back, he found some survey about British Muslims, and a worryingly large percentage held some pretty shit opinions about LGBT rights and women's rights....

but at least they're not beheading people baby steps
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
#7
Quote by StewieSwan
It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"

Islam is also a race though, so you don't want to be racist ya know?
#8
Quote by StewieSwan at #33685654
It is interesting how the liberals of the west like to ignore how backwards and awful "moderate" muslims are on issues like women's rights and LGBT rights.


Crucify the fuck out of a Christian that doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, but let's just call the burqa "their culture" and not criticize it.

That always annoyed the hell out of me because I know they purposefully went to a christian bakery and demanded they make a cake for them knowing they wouldn't want to.
Quote by MeTallIcA313
Guys, you heard Mr. Sacamano. No fun until racism is over.
#9
Quote by StewieSwan at #33685654
It is interesting how the liberals of the west like to ignore how backwards and awful "moderate" muslims are on issues like women's rights and LGBT rights.


Crucify the fuck out of a Christian that doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, but let's just call the burqa "their culture" and not criticize it.

I have never understood this
___

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#10
Quote by StewieSwan
It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"

Who's hailing them as paragons of progressivism? Generally social liberals are just happy to live and let live, that's supposed to be the idea. I've certainly never seen anyone saying that their cultural practices re: Women and LGBT communities should be emulated.


I wouldn't really call those Muslims who are wearing the burqa moderate. They tend to be on the higher scale of fundamentalism in terms of religious practice.

I have known lots of moderate muslims though. I'd a friend growing up who was a practising muslim, but you'd never know it. He was as integrated into Irish culture as any Catholic, as was his entire family.

Similarly I've taught a fair few muslim teenagers. Most of them, even those girls who wear the Hijab, are pretty standard teens. No acid in the face at all.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
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#11
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Who's hailing them as paragons of progressivism? Generally social liberals are just happy to live and let live, that's supposed to be the idea. I've certainly never seen anyone saying that their cultural practices re: Women and LGBT communities should be emulated.


It's a lie of omission. People throw the term "moderate muslims" around but that's as far as it ever gets. We don't really talk about moderate muslims, because western liberals don't want to be confronted with the uncomfortable truth that "moderate muslims" still hold a ton of shitty views.


I wouldn't really call those Muslims who are wearing the burqa moderate. They tend to be on the higher scale of fundamentalism in terms of religious practice.


That's a pretty huge number of people. Add in the hijab and it's a massive number of people.

I have known lots of moderate muslims though. I'd a friend growing up who was a practising muslim, but you'd never know it. He was as integrated into Irish culture as any Catholic, as was his entire family.


Ask him how he feels about transgender people using the restroom of their choice, or a woman's right to choose.

Similarly I've taught a fair few muslim teenagers. Most of them, even those girls who wear the Hijab, are pretty standard teens. No acid in the face at all.


You know as well as I that religious fundamentalists don't really start becoming goons until their 20s.
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#12
Quote by StewieSwan
It's a lie of omission. People throw the term "moderate muslims" around but that's as far as it ever gets. We don't really talk about moderate muslims, because western liberals don't want to be confronted with the uncomfortable truth that "moderate muslims" still hold a ton of shitty views.


Some do, and some don't. There are absolutely heaps of Muslims who are assimilated into the cultures of their adopted countries. There have even been those who've become advocates for more progressive policies than the supposedly liberal native inhabitants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moosajee_Bhamjee

It also presents only one side of the picture. There are no shortage of Christians who hold extremely bigoted views. Women and the LGBT community get plenty of abuse from the natives. I've worked behind bars in Ireland for long enough to see how we treat our own women.

That's a pretty huge number of people. Add in the hijab and it's a massive number of people.


Hijabis are not necessarily particularly conservative or religious. Many of the girls I've taught wore it because "it looks cool" and their friends do it. I've known Hijabis in Muslim countries who are working with NGOs that promote progressive policy around women's rights.

Ask him how he feels about transgender people using the restroom of their choice, or a woman's right to choose.


Lol, ask Irish people generally how they feel about a woman's right to choose. Only 32% support Abortion for "'other reasons' than 'suicide', 'rape', or medical risks to her life"

I know my friend voted in favour of legalising gay marriage here, which makes him more progressive than 40% of the Irish population. Just because he doesn't drink or eat rashers doesn't mean he can't understand the difference between legislative policy and private religious views.


You know as well as I that religious fundamentalists don't really start becoming goons until their 20s.
There was reportedly a 15 year old involved in the attacks in Paris. Extremist groups specifically target teens for radicalisation:

“Capture the rebelliousness of youth, their energy and idealism, and their readiness for self-sacrifice, while fools preach ‘moderation’ (wasatiyyah), security and avoidance of risk.

Works in the other direction too, quote from a 15 year old student of Irish parentage: "You couldn't allow the gays to adopt children, they'd only rape them".


My point is that Muslims, even moderate ones, are not a homogeneous group by any means. They hold a diversity of beliefs, both in a religious sense and from the point of view of their political views. In my own experience what appears to matter far more when it comes to the degree of fundamentalism isn't so much religious belief, but rather social class background and cultural capital. Those who lack access to the cultural capitals of their country tend to experience a huge degree of alienation. That makes them easy prey for those who would seek to radicalise them
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#13
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Some do, and some don't. There are absolutely heaps of Muslims who are assimilated into the cultures of their adopted countries. There have even been those who've become advocates for more progressive policies than the supposedly liberal native inhabitants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moosajee_Bhamjee

It also presents only one side of the picture. There are no shortage of Christians who hold extremely bigoted views. Women and the LGBT community get plenty of abuse from the natives. I've worked behind bars in Ireland for long enough to see how we treat our own women.


Yeah, Christians are awful, too. But my point is that when a Christian is really anti-gay they're a "fundamentalist" but when a Muslim is really anti-gay, they're a "moderate". That's the problem.


Hijabis are not necessarily particularly conservative or religious. Many of the girls I've taught wore it because "it looks cool" and their friends do it. I've known Hijabis in Muslim countries who are working with NGOs that promote progressive policy around women's rights.


I don't care about your personal experiences.


Lol, ask Irish people generally how they feel about a woman's right to choose. Only 32% support Abortion for "'other reasons' than 'suicide', 'rape', or medical risks to her life"


Yeah, Irish people suck, too. Common knowledge.

I know my friend voted in favour of legalising gay marriage here, which makes him more progressive than 40% of the Irish population. Just because he doesn't drink or eat rashers doesn't mean he can't understand the difference between legislative policy and private religious views.


I still do not care about "my black muslim friend did this..."


There was reportedly a 15 year old involved in the attacks in Paris. Extremist groups specifically target teens for radicalisation:


I didn't say teens can't be extremists, but the time people start becoming religious zealots generally happens in the early 20s, regardless of religion.


My point is that Muslims, even moderate ones, are not a homogeneous group by any means. They hold a diversity of beliefs, both in a religious sense and from the point of view of their political views. In my own experience what appears to matter far more when it comes to the degree of fundamentalism isn't so much religious belief, but rather social class background and cultural capital. Those who lack access to the cultural capitals of their country tend to experience a huge degree of alienation. That makes them easy prey for those who would seek to radicalise them


Your experience is irrelevant. You live in a modernized, western country. It's great that you know muslims that are actually moderates, but I don't think you'd find a large number of LGBT activists in Pakistan, Yemen, or Indonesia.
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#14
Quote by Ur all $h1t

Works in the other direction too, quote from a 15 year old student of Irish parentage: "You couldn't allow the gays to adopt children, they'd only rape them".

TBF there is a drink called the Irish Car Bomb, so maybe it's just an Irish thing.
#15
My point is that Muslims, even moderate ones, are not a homogeneous group by any means.


I don't think anyone was saying they were tbf, just that Islam (like Christianity) says some pretty shitty things in places, and some people live by the shitty parts. Obviously there will be outliers and exceptions, and most people are pretty okay

personally I juts find it amusing that everyone bashes Christians so much for this stuff, but leaves other religions alone

a lot of people fail to see that
v
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
Last edited by Bladez22 at Nov 16, 2015,
#16
Criticizing Islam or saying it is violent isn't the same as judging individual Muslims in that way, or saying they are anything in particular.
#17
Quote by StewieSwan
Yeah, Christians are awful, too. But my point is that when a Christian is really anti-gay they're a "fundamentalist" but when a Muslim is really anti-gay, they're a "moderate". That's the problem.


Nobody would class 40% of the Irish population as religious fundamentalists, yet hat's the proportion that were anti-gay enough to seek to deny them marriage rights.




I don't care about your personal experiences.


Yeah, Irish people suck, too. Common knowledge.



I still do not care about "my black muslim friend did this..."


Your problem here is that you're attempting to make sweeping claims about entire groups of people. Ignoring lived experience that contradicts it is convenient, but it doesn't change the fact that your attempt to class all moderate Muslims as anything but is silly.


I didn't say teens can't be extremists, but the time people start becoming religious zealots generally happens in the early 20s, regardless of religion.


You heavily implied it.


Your experience is irrelevant. You live in a modernized, western country. It's great that you know muslims that are actually moderates, but I don't think you'd find a large number of LGBT activists in Pakistan, Yemen, or Indonesia.


You wouldn't. Nor would you find many in undeveloped Christian nations either.

You can reject anecdotal evidence if you like, that's fine. The problem is that you're ignoring the deeper criticism, which is that you're characterising moderate Muslims as inherently fundamentalist, when that simply is not the case.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#18
Quote by seanlang01
Criticizing Islam or saying it is violent isn't the same as judging individual Muslims in that way, or saying they are anything in particular.



Right, except that the statement I was responding to:

Quote by StewieSwan
It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"


was fairly clearly referring to them as individuals.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#19
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Nobody would class 40% of the Irish population as religious fundamentalists, yet hat's the proportion that were anti-gay enough to seek to deny them marriage rights.


So if they're not fundamentalists they're moderates...who still hold awful views. Was this supposed to help your case?





Your problem here is that you're attempting to make sweeping claims about entire groups of people. Ignoring lived experience that contradicts it is convenient, but it doesn't change the fact that your attempt to class all moderate Muslims as anything but is silly.


I'm criticizing the term "moderate muslims" more than the muslims themselves.


You wouldn't. Nor would you find many in undeveloped Christian nations either.


I have no love for Christianity either.

You can reject anecdotal evidence if you like, that's fine. The problem is that you're ignoring the deeper criticism, which is that you're characterising moderate Muslims as inherently fundamentalist, when that simply is not the case.


No, I'm criticizing the free passes we allow Islam that aren't afforded to other faiths.
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#22
tbf tho i don't think anyone on the left could pretend there isn't a certain amount of what is basically orientalism that goes into how it talks about muslims and islamic terrorism. half the time it's a struggle to get anyone on the left to clearly say they oppose terrorism.
#23
Quote by StewieSwan at #33685784
Yeah, Christians are awful, too.

Thanks m8
Quote by MeTallIcA313
Guys, you heard Mr. Sacamano. No fun until racism is over.
#25
Quote by Bladez22
I don't think anyone was saying they were tbf, just that Islam (like Christianity) says some pretty shitty things in places, and some people live by the shitty parts. Obviously there will be outliers and exceptions, and most people are pretty okay


Of course there will be exceptions to the rule you just invented.

Some people live by the shitty parts, some people live by the good parts, some people live by neither.

Quote by Bladez22
personally I juts find it amusing that everyone bashes Christians so much for this stuff, but leaves other religions alone

What planet are you on?
#28
Quote by WhiskeyFace
Of course there will be exceptions to the rule you just invented.

Some people live by the shitty parts, some people live by the good parts, some people live by neither.



yeah that's my point? that and its surprising how many live by the shit parts, even in western nations

What planet are you on?


There's been a pretty clear "fvck the Christian right" vibe in the past few years, just from what I'm noticing online as I'm not from the US and don't care either way. But I've noticed that very left leaning people are fine with slating Christianity but don't have a problem with other shitty religions, or at least don't bother mentioning it

you can be right leaning and still be a decent person. Political views are different from views on LGBT rights and such (in theory at least)
v
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
Last edited by Bladez22 at Nov 16, 2015,
#29
The issue is rather polarized -- while I hold it as a fact that "moderate Muslims" are more right-leaning than other "moderates", they (by which I also include the majority of Muslims) are absolutely crucial to stemming the tide that IS is riding. With that being said, the compounding polarization that I see most often is that there are equally vocal camps of people, one decrying the evils of Islam in its entirety, and the other too timid to critique Muslims and their faith/culture for fear of being socially chastised or deemed as bigoted.
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#30
Quote by StewieSwan
It's just frustrating how "moderate muslims" are heralded as these paragons of progressivism. Wow, you only force your wife to cover her face in public instead of throwing acid in it when she looks at another dude? How moderate!"


modesty is held highly in islam but it differs in different places geographically and culturally.


for example, in Bangladesh it is uncommon to wear a burqa, and the majority of women do not even wear a hijab, despite the country being predominantly Muslim. what is considered modest there is different than what is considered modest in, let's say, Afghanistan. it is also different than what is considered modest in Malaysia, another predominantly Muslim country.

in Bangladesh, the women that cover their hair after adulthood almost always choose to or not to. same case with the majority of Hijabi women in the US - they chose to because of their own beliefs, despite the common misconception that their husbands or father forced them to.

do some women wear the veil strictly because of their husbands? yes. is this more common among more extreme communities? yes.


you could argue the same kind of stuff about Christianity, which values purity. extreme groups force women into limited interaction with men, lack of property ownership, and wearing shit like this:


but the number of Christians that enforce that brand of Christianity are such a small minority in comparison to the vast diverse population of Christians - just like the number of Muslims that enforce a misogynist brand of Christianity are a small minority in comparison to the vast diverse population of Muslims. that misogyny's direct relationship with Islam, as opposed to a combination of geographically-rooted cultural norms, is questionable.
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#31
Quote by Bladez22
yeah that's my point? that and its surprising how many live by the shit parts, even in western nations

It's not surprising at all that many people are cunts.


Quote by Bladez22
There's been a pretty clear "fvck the Christian right" vibe in the past few years, just from what I'm noticing online as I'm not from the US and don't care either way. But I've noticed that very left leaning people are fine with slating Christianity but don't have a problem with other shitty religions, or at least don't bother mentioning it

I honestly don't know who these people are.
#32
oppression of muslim women, and in particular, veiling, has been used by the west to support military intervention in the middle east in the past. consequently i'd be pretty skeptical of anyone who tells some sort of white savior narrative about muslim women yet fails to show any decent knowledge about issues they face.
#33
Quote by WhiskeyFace
Invented by Americans.
Being flippant.


How can an abstract noun be violent?
Are you really this pedantic or are you trolling? Honestly can't tell.
#35
Quote by WhiskeyFace
^When you refer to something called "Islam" that's other than Muslims then I don't know wtf you're talking about. Is it the Quran you mean? Because books can't be violent either. Parts of it promote violence, other parts promote peace.

Pedantic. Noted for future reference. I'd love to hear if you think Christianity was violent in the 1500s or if that's impossible because "Christianity" can't be violent.
#37
I would love to read some butt philosophy. Like what's more important? Shape? Volume? Is there an ideal where they meet ala supply/demand curve?
#38
it's a difficult optimization problem with no analytic solution. current numerical methods converge too slowly to do any real time butt simulations
#39
I'm more of a field study type of guy when it comes to butt analysis
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