#1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJnero68CXc

I think this guy's correct. It always pisses me off how people are so ready to make things into a left vs. right issue on just about everything.

What do you think?
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#4
either it islam or it isn'tlam
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#7
Quote by theogonia777 at #33702414
either it islam or it isn'tlam


lol'd
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#8
Quote by theogonia777
either it islam or it isn'tlam


wp

Also, it's Sam Harris, fuck dat guy.
o()o

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#10
Is that actually Sam Harris speaking?

EDIT: I agree though that it's silly to say IS aren't Muslim or that their religion has nothing to do with what they do. But it's also stupid to think they represent all Muslims, or that everyone that believes is Islam shares the same version of it.

But really I think I fundamentally disagree with this guy that IS is not a political and social issue - I think their religion gives them a unifying ideology to get behind, but I think the only reason they actually exist is the political, social, and economic climate in that part of the world. Being able to point at passages in a holy book is a great tool for them and gives them great authority when they want it, but plenty of other people read that same book and turn out fine.
Last edited by MadClownDisease at Nov 27, 2015,
#11
I've about grown tired of this whole "Islam is bad/is it?" debate.

Just kill all shitty people, regardless of beliefs, and let the good ones live a good life.


EDIT:
I realize it's not that simple. This was just a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of bullshit I see from my stupid fear-mongering/hate-mongering relatives on Facebook.
Seattle Seahawks


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Last edited by SGstriker at Nov 27, 2015,
#13
He shouldn't swear so much.
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#15
Quote by MadClownDisease
Is that actually Sam Harris speaking?

EDIT: I agree though that it's silly to say IS aren't Muslim or that their religion has nothing to do with what they do. But it's also stupid to think they represent all Muslims, or that everyone that believes is Islam shares the same version of it.

But really I think I fundamentally disagree with this guy that IS is not a political and social issue - I think their religion gives them a unifying ideology to get behind, but I think the only reason they actually exist is the political, social, and economic climate in that part of the world. Being able to point at passages in a holy book is a great tool for them and gives them great authority when they want it, but plenty of other people read that same book and turn out fine.


This, and we started it too by leaving the power vacuum when we took out Saddam Hussein. We put all the rotten eggs in a huge basket, tens of thousands. There, is where it started in that big concentration camp/prison.
If you are a misfit an outcast, you have no sense of belonging , sort of like the people who join gangs it's easy to see the appeal. They promise a wife and salary you are part of something very important. It's not just a delusional feeling of importance it's actually true. Worldwide acclaim , you get lots of attention. Plus you are causing much grief, that ..is significant.

It's terribly complex. Trying to figure out how to kill it is yet more complex. Can't chase every rabbit down every hole and I rock and Syria.

If nothing else we know what they want. They want a war with the infidels ,on their turf, they want American soldiers over there to fight the holy war. It would be a total disaster for us.
#17
Quote by JimDawson
It always pisses me off how people are so ready to make things into a left vs. right issue on just about everything.

What do you think?
I think that anyone who reduces ANYTHING to left-vs-right* is ignorant in spades.

I take the Dara O'Brien approach toward Islam of "I don't know a lot about it, neither do you, so I don't joke about it". I haven't studied it in any intense manner, and I haven't read the basic texts and interpretations, thus I can only go on my ignorant experience of people with a background in Islam, which is largely pretty good on an individual level. I'd study it in my own time but currently that's being used for going on here and eating Pringles.

The Maher clip was p good up until they started talking over each other and the bleeding heart got loud and obnoxious (regardless of the cogency of some of his points).

*outside of a meta-debate, perhaps.
they're coming to take me away
ha-haaa
#19
Quote by MadClownDisease
Is that actually Sam Harris speaking?

EDIT: I agree though that it's silly to say IS aren't Muslim or that their religion has nothing to do with what they do. But it's also stupid to think they represent all Muslims, or that everyone that believes is Islam shares the same version of it.

But really I think I fundamentally disagree with this guy that IS is not a political and social issue - I think their religion gives them a unifying ideology to get behind, but I think the only reason they actually exist is the political, social, and economic climate in that part of the world. Being able to point at passages in a holy book is a great tool for them and gives them great authority when they want it, but plenty of other people read that same book and turn out fine.

That's not what Sam Harris has ever said though. I don't agree with Sam on a bunch of issues, but people like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan and Cenk, have been completely demonizing the guy without any real arguments to back themselves up.
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ಠ_ಠ
#20
Quote by MadClownDisease
But really I think I fundamentally disagree with this guy that IS is not a political and social issue - I think their religion gives them a unifying ideology to get behind, but I think the only reason they actually exist is the political, social, and economic climate in that part of the world. Being able to point at passages in a holy book is a great tool for them and gives them great authority when they want it, but plenty of other people read that same book and turn out fine.


It wasn't mentioned in the video, and I really can't speak for the guy, but I think the two of you would actually agree on that based on the sort of argument he's making. (and I agree as well)

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good substance poor style


Yeah. The biggest problem I have with it is the picture of Sam Harris he used- poor way to represent the video as demonstrated by some of the posts in this thread.

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*big post- I don't want to fill up the page with quotes*


Pretty good way to sum things up really.

Quote by Banjocal
I think that anyone who reduces ANYTHING to left-vs-right* is ignorant in spades.




Quote by Banjocal
I take the Dara O'Brien approach toward Islam of "I don't know a lot about it, neither do you, so I don't joke about it". I haven't studied it in any intense manner, and I haven't read the basic texts and interpretations, thus I can only go on my ignorant experience of people with a background in Islam, which is largely pretty good on an individual level. I'd study it in my own time but currently that's being used for going on here and eating Pringles.


It's good to have your information together before commenting on something, but complacency is a pretty big problem these days; we have too many distractions. If the general public was more aware of these problems we'd stand a better chance of fixing them before they get worse.

Quote by Neo Evil11
[...]people like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan and Cenk, have been completely demonizing [Sam Harris] without any real arguments to back themselves up.


I never really followed SH much, but from what I gather his main thing is just pointing out things the Quran says and having all kinds of people strawman him for it. Does this seem accurate to you?
Quote by Jesus
Gaza Strip- home. At least it was before I fucked ereythang up...
Last edited by JimDawson at Nov 27, 2015,
#21
Quote by JimDawson
I never really followed SH much, but from what I gather his main thing is just pointing out things the Quran says and having all kinds of people strawman him for it. Does this seem accurate to you?

Not at all. He usually bases his arguments on poll numbers. For example the number of people who think apostasy should be punishable by death. But what these people are doing is taking his philosophical arguments (for example: he raised the question on what to do when an irrational enemy has a nuke, cause then game theory doesn't work anymore), and then they say "see he wants to nuke all muslims".

Or the time when Sam Harris said that it was a waste of time to search Seinfeld for bombs on an airport, and then they turned it into "he wants all jews to get a free pass, but wants all muslims searched".

Note that I disagree with Sam on some conclusions or issues he has raised. But people are just completely making shit up to demonize the guy. Watch the Rubin Report for an analysis of what happened.

edit: The clip that was posted from Real Time basically shows the issue. Sam quotes poll numbers, and gets called a racist in return. People say "you should empower moderate muslims", he writes a book with an ex-islamist, and the same progressives called that ex-islamist a porch monkey for working together with Sam.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Nov 27, 2015,
#22
^I'll look into it some more. Thank you for your time.
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Gaza Strip- home. At least it was before I fucked ereythang up...
#23
Quote by Neo Evil11
That's not what Sam Harris has ever said though. I don't agree with Sam on a bunch of issues, but people like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan and Cenk, have been completely demonizing the guy without any real arguments to back themselves up.

Oh aye, I was talking generally, not about Sam Harris. And I think unfortunately, in the UK at least, a lot do think that. Or even if they don't, they think all Muslims need to apologise for it or condemn it as if it has anything at all to do with them.

I don't know much about Sam Harris' views on Islam though really. I read his book The Moral Landscape about moral facts which I liked though. I gleaned from that he is not a fan of a lot of practices associated with Islam (he mentioned the veil a lot).