#1
ya'll still here?

I was going over the Han / Leia theme with a student who's also a star wars fan. This is a great little tune with a lot of interesting modulations.





Now before you crucify me for that wrong key signature, I'm writing C# min rather than C# maj for convenience / ease of reading. I also got to thinking, even though it's a major I it uses so many of the chords found in the parallel minor, as well as the modulation keys that relate to it.

I guess some plebs will say it has a harmonic major flavor, but would it also be wrong to think of it as always going to i minor with a picardy 3rd?


Let's also talk about m.6-8, and 10-12. How would you describe these harmonic relationships? And m.12... how bout that gorgeous play on N6 to V

And m.18. Similar to above, I have that as VI/iv but maybe you have a different take on it.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#2
I see

m.6
D | Bm7 | C#m | D#ø7 |

as some prolongation of C#m

m.10
G | Em7 | G#ø7 | G# |

as some prolongation of F#m

Both of these informed by the II chords (Neapolitan and half-diminished 7th both)

I wouldn't say harmonic major more than a temporary journey into the parallel minor and I-(i-iv-V)-(I) as a Picardy resolution, yeah, pretty much agreeing.

But can't we just say bII to I for the D(maj7) to C# resolutions? I'd say you could classify these like tritone subs more so than aug 6ths, even though there are no dominant 7ths/aug 6ths anywhere. (I'm claiming their absence is an elided and anticipated resolution.)
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#3
Quote by NeoMvsEu
I see

m.6
D | Bm7 | C#m | D#ø7 |

as some prolongation of C#m

m.10
G | Em7 | G#ø7 | G# |

as some prolongation of F#m

Both of these informed by the II chords (Neapolitan and half-diminished 7th both)

ehhh...this is kind of vague... elaborate further?


But can't we just say bII to I for the D(maj7) to C# resolutions? I'd say you could classify these like tritone subs more so than aug 6ths, even though there are no dominant 7ths/aug 6ths anywhere. (I'm claiming their absence is an elided and anticipated resolution.)

you know what, this is a much better way of framing the pesky D maj. I'll take it!

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#4
Quote by Xiaoxi at #33712147
ehhh...this is kind of vague... elaborate further?

m.6
D | Bm7 | C#m | D#ø7 | can function as
bII | vii7 | i | iiø7 | in C#m

m.10
G | Em7 | G#ø7 | can function as
bII | vii7 | iiø7 | in F#m

Neither of them resolve right away, but if you look at their V chords:
C#m: G#
F#m: C#

the resolution of the section makes sense, both in the context of global tonic and also as back-relating dominants:
C# | c# | f# (G#) | C#
I | i | iv (V) | I    (within the context of global tonic)
I | i | iv (V/i) | (V/iv) (with back-relations)
Hope that makes more sense.
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Dec 3, 2015,
#6
WHO DARES AWAKEN ME FROM MY ETERNAL SLUMBER?

I feel like the D Bm7 C#m7 actually setting up a modulation to IV, F#m. That's what the melody appears to be up to, it's just harmonized in a way we don't expect, using the bII (N6) (and Bm7) as somewhat of a pivot.

mm6-8: bII - VIIm7 (F#m: IVm7) - Im7 (Vm7)

Instead of confirming F#m, Williams immediately flirts with our home key again by throwing in the D#half diminished, and then he uses the same devices as before in the new modulation, using the bII again (G this time) and VIIm7. Instead of modulating with it, however, he quickly confirms it with ITS II half diminished (G#) and immediately steers it back to our global I, C#.

As far as calling it picardy thirds everywhere instead of C# major: "I have a real bad feeling about this".

I'm not gonna call it harmonic major, because this isn't super modal enough to warrant that. Williams is just going HAM with the mode mixture and borrowed harmony, and using a little impressionist color.

As a Brahms fanboy, you should know all about excessive mode mixture.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#7
TL;DR: prolongation of predominant chord borrowed from the minor, with a D#ø7 that acts as a tease? And it never fully resolves, the modulated part.
#9
TLDR of the TLDR: yes. lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#10
I might just sig that, that was beautiful :')
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#11
A classy sig for a classy lady.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#12
How about 6-8: IV/VI, ii/VI, V/VI (D, Bm7, E6). Half cadence on VI, resolving to iiø, instead of a plainly stated VI iiø.

I feel like generally with slash numerals the idea is that the digression has a consistent chord of resolution, or at least for the chords of resolution to resolve sensibly among themselves.
Last edited by cdgraves at Dec 4, 2015,
#13
Quote by Xiaoxi at #33712035



Ah, DropBox, no wonder it can't get past the Great Wall...

Btw, I just listened to it via this.

m.8 is E#m. m.9 is F#m. So it's not as sequential as I'd thought.

Overall, if anyone wants to chime in more:

m.5: C#|D|Bm7|E#m|

(Truncated E#m section: F#m [B]F# | E#m[/B] | x2

This establishes a lot of the bII-i/I movement throughout.)

m.9: F#m|G|Em7|G#ø7 G#|


It gives a HECK of a lot more credence to this entire section being a prolongation of F#m, the borrowed predominant, with the E#m serving as a vii (instead of viio, still two shared tones).
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#15
Neo:

Agreed, but with different words.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#16
Sorry for the delay, I've been crazy busy...


Quote by NeoMvsEu
m.6
D | Bm7 | C#m | D#ø7 | can function as
bII | vii7 | i | iiø7 | in C#m

m.10
G | Em7 | G#ø7 | can function as
bII | vii7 | iiø7 | in F#m

Neither of them resolve right away, but if you look at their V chords:
C#m: G#
F#m: C#

the resolution of the section makes sense, both in the context of global tonic and also as back-relating dominants:
C# | c# | f# (G#) | C#
I | i | iv (V) | I (within the context of global tonic)
I | i | iv (V/i) | (V/iv) (with back-relations)
Hope that makes more sense.

Eh.. still not clear and not sure I agree. First, I don't know what back-relations mean since this is not a common term. However, I also disagree with the harmonic relations... vii7 is simply not diatonic to a minor key, so while this does describe the harmonic quality, it is inaccurate in terms of relationship.

Also, taking the context of phrasings into account, the iiø7 in m.9 is in a new phrase and not part of the tonality of the previous phrase.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#17
Quote by Jet Penguin
WHO DARES AWAKEN ME FROM MY ETERNAL SLUMBER?


I feel like the D Bm7 C#m7 actually setting up a modulation to IV, F#m. That's what the melody appears to be up to, it's just harmonized in a way we don't expect, using the bII (N6) (and Bm7) as somewhat of a pivot.

mm6-8: bII - VIIm7 (F#m: IVm7) - Im7 (Vm7)
This is exactly what I have tho...

As far as calling it picardy thirds everywhere instead of C# major: "I have a real bad feeling about this".



I'm not gonna call it harmonic major, because this isn't super modal enough to warrant that. Williams is just going HAM with the mode mixture and borrowed harmony, and using a little impressionist color.

As a Brahms fanboy, you should know all about excessive mode mixture.
Tru tru... why do you think I like it so much


Quote by Jet Penguin
TLDR of the TLDR: yes. lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.

omg.... YES!!

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#18
Quote by cdgraves
How about 6-8: IV/VI, ii/VI, V/VI (D, Bm7, E6). Half cadence on VI, resolving to iiø, instead of a plainly stated VI iiø.

Hmm, this is very plausible aside from the E6... this is simply a C#- on first inversion. It would be a iii/VI.

I feel like generally with slash numerals the idea is that the digression has a consistent chord of resolution, or at least for the chords of resolution to resolve sensibly among themselves.

That is what makes this tricky and brilliant. Nothing is working perfectly and yet it works so well!

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#19
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Coffee stain texture. Not even once.

bitch ass

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#20
Putting this in order:
Quote by Xiaoxi at #33719449
Eh.. still not clear and not sure I agree. ... I ... disagree with the harmonic relations... vii7 is simply not diatonic to a minor key, so while this does describe the harmonic quality, it is inaccurate in terms of relationship.
vii7 isn't diatonic, but seeing that bII-i/I has been firmly established elsewhere in the song, it makes sense as a chord substitution of the relative major.

Also, taking the context of phrasings into account, the iiø7 in m.9 is in a new phrase and not part of the tonality of the previous phrase.
Are you just going to stop there and not look at the corrections I gave? If you're going to come back late, at least do the job in full, dangit. ;P

I don't know what back-relations mean since this is not a common term.
It's a dominant that refers to a previously stated chord. C#, while acting as the global tonic, can also be seen as V/F#m, which governed the middle section. And G# could have served well to act as V/C#m if that section were in C#m, but as I mentioned in my last reply, the chords do more strongly support F#m, seeing that there is actually an F#m chord there in lieu of m.9's "iiø7".
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#21
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Coffee stain texture. Not even once.


Yeah Xiaoxi, be more careful. They didn't drink coffee in Starwars.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#22
Quote by NeoMvsEu

It's a dominant that refers to a previously stated chord. C#, while acting as the global tonic, can also be seen as V/F#m, which governed the middle section. And G# could have served well to act as V/C#m if that section were in C#m, but as I mentioned in my last reply, the chords do more strongly support F#m, seeing that there is actually an F#m chord there in lieu of m.9's "iiø7".

Hmm, that is a good point!

...modes and scales are still useless.


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