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#1
I've searched for an answer to this for an hour and I still do not have a clear understanding.
#3
Quote by J23L
I've searched for an answer to this for an hour and I still do not have a clear understanding.

Where did you find the term? Maybe you need to go back there and ask.
(I guess you looked up "parallel 5ths" and/or know what they are? )
#4
Quote by jongtr
Where did you find the term? Maybe you need to go back there and ask.
(I guess you looked up "parallel 5ths" and/or know what they are? )

Im reading a book on voice leading. The term was in the book. Im surprised nobody here has heard of this term before. I thought this site was full of theory buffs
#6
Quote by GoldenGuitar
Can you cite the passage for us? Maybe it'll make more sense in ccontext?


"The use of compound intervals makes possible a succession of fifths or octaves by contrary motion. These so-called antiparallel fifths and octaves are to be avoided in two-part writing; because of the dependency of the voices, the simultaneous occurrence of two leaps is problematic in itself."
#7
Ugh. Dumb theorist talking about dumb theory with dumb made-up language. No one in the world has ever said "antiparallel fifths" so they're definitely not "so-called." At any rate, here's what he's talking about.

#8
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Ugh. Dumb theorist talking about dumb theory with dumb made-up language. No one in the world has ever said "antiparallel fifths" so they're definitely not "so-called." At any rate, here's what he's talking about.


I understand the top part, but i don't get the bottom part. In the first two measures I don't see any successive fifths or octaves
Last edited by J23L at Dec 13, 2015,
#9
Look at the motion horizontally! But there are 8ves and 8ve + 5ths vertically in the second one too.

P.S. I guess it's sort of like a pseudo ostinato, haha.
Last edited by GoldenGuitar at Dec 13, 2015,
#10
Quote by GoldenGuitar
Look at the motion horizontally! But there are 8ves and 8ve + 5ths vertically in the second one too.

P.S. I guess it's sort of like a pseudo ostinato, haha.

Oh, ok I get it now. Thanks for the much needed help
#11
I got a theory. Let's assume we're in E-minor. Now the 5th to an E is a B, which is a 7-semitone difference. However the 5th to the F-sharp in E-minor ends up being a C, which ends up being a 6-semitone difference. Maybe this is an "anti-parallel 5th".
#12
No, they move in the same direction, thus parallel, and their general interval is a fifth, thus parallel fifths.

JRF's example shows contrary motion, but jumps to repeated fifths or octaves, albeit separated by an extra octave in some cases, and the successive fifths show bad voice leading.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#13
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Ugh. Dumb theorist talking about dumb theory with dumb made-up language. No one in the world has ever said "antiparallel fifths" so they're definitely not "so-called." At any rate, here's what he's talking about.


Just so i can make sure i got this right, the successive fifths in the bottom picture are the last three bottom notes (A, E, A)?
#14
Not really no. That's just a coincidence of the notes I chose. Write out each interval for yourself and it might be clearer. Also, the first two measures and the second two measures are separate examples.
#15
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Not really no. That's just a coincidence of the notes I chose. Write out each interval for yourself and it might be clearer. Also, the first two measures and the second two measures are separate examples.

In the first two measures, between what two notes are making up the parallel fifth? And in the last two measures what two notes are making up the parallel fifth? If you can tell me this i will probably understand. I just need to know the notes
#16
Can you read the notation even? If not, you should probably practice that.

First two measures are C4-G4/A3-E5
Second two are E4-E5/A3-A5, successive octaves.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#17
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Can you read the notation even? If not, you should probably practice that.

First two measures are C4-G4/A3-E5
Second two are E4-E5/A3-A5, successive octaves.

I get it now. The first two measures are 5ths and the second two measures are octaves. I see it now. I was confused because I didn't think the A-E in the second measure was a 5th because of how it visually looked.
#19
yall are idiots. clearly it's referring to perpendicular fifths, like so:

Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Last edited by Hail at Dec 15, 2015,
#20
Quote by Hail
yall are idiots. clearly it's referring to perpendicular fifths, like so:



Lol.
#21
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Ugh. Dumb theorist talking about dumb theory with dumb made-up language. No one in the world has ever said "antiparallel fifths" so they're definitely not "so-called." At any rate, here's what he's talking about.


I've heard "antiparallel fifths" being used many times. Also, if you do a Google search, it shows up a lot.

It's a bit easier to say antiparallel fifths than "consecutive fifths in contrary motion", don't you think?
Last edited by Elintasokas at Dec 13, 2015,
#22
Quote by Elintasokas
I've heard "antiparallel fifths" being used many times. Also, if you do a Google search, it shows up a lot.

It's a bit easier to say antiparallel fifths than "consecutive fifths in contrary motion", don't you think?


Personally, I've never heard the term before.

And its just a pointlessly specific term--anti-parallel fifths are squares and parallel fifths are rectangles. An anti-parallel fifth is just a parallel fifth with an octave displacement. But it makes no point to use the term, because what octave the notes occur in doesn't really make a difference when you are doing SATB type numeral analysis (A to E is considered a fifth, whether its A4-E5 or A1-A6). Its really just redundant. But on top of being redundant, its confusing, because the term itself makes it seem way more complex than it is.

But, I guess if its really important that you communicate the octave displacement with your terminology, I guess an anti-parallel fifth technically describes it


Parallel fifth parallel fifth parallel fifth para....
#23
Well they're not parallel fifths because they're going in contrary motion. To generalize the rule, it probably suffices to say "no successive/consecutive fifths/octaves".
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#24
Quote by Elintasokas
I've heard "antiparallel fifths" being used many times. Also, if you do a Google search, it shows up a lot.

It's a bit easier to say antiparallel fifths than "consecutive fifths in contrary motion", don't you think?


"isn't it easier to say lydian than major with an augmented fourth?"

what does it fucking matter. occam's razor goes both ways. i'd rather have less pretentious vocabulary to explain than a fundamental understanding of how things operate

also, googling antiparallel fifths shows 4 articles about music theory....then it gets into mesoscopic electron transport. so let's not pretend it's a term that's perpetuated by anyone that doesn't like the smell of their own farts
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#25
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Well they're not parallel fifths because they're going in contrary motion. To generalize the rule, it probably suffices to say "no successive/consecutive fifths/octaves".


But they are considered parallel fifths in SATB writing because the octave the notes are in is not considered. If the bass voice and the tenor voice both move in a way that makes consecutive fifths, its colloquially just considered parallel fifths, whether it was per parallel or per contrario motu

To be honest, nobody really talks or cares about them that much anyways. Parallel fifth is like babies first rule of harmony and is broken so often as to hardly be a rule. Fact of the matter, in tune perfect fifths are hard af to sing, especially parallel. Also, parallel fifths and fourths get cray in the tuning systems they were using when this was common practice
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Dec 14, 2015,
#26
^ that's a misnomer if I've ever seen a bigger one. Source?

Also, parallel fifths are discouraged as to make for independent voices; power chords need not apply. Finally, "in tune" really depends on the temperament...
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#27
Quote by NeoMvsEu
^ that's a misnomer if I've ever seen a bigger one. Source?

Also, parallel fifths are discouraged as to make for independent voices; power chords need not apply. Finally, "in tune" really depends on the temperament...

Yeah, but a lot of music couldn't care less about these independent voices when the chords are just used for a harmonic background.
#28
Quote by NeoMvsEu
^ that's a misnomer if I've ever seen a bigger one. Source?

Also, parallel fifths are discouraged as to make for independent voices; power chords need not apply. Finally, "in tune" really depends on the temperament...



If you don't believe me, try singing a string of consecutive fifths with your friend. Then remember when these rules were in effect, a lot of music was written for untrained church congregations

The point about tuning systems wasn't to describe what in tune is. Just pointing out in a fifths and thirds based tuning system, aka five limit ji and other names too, the fifths will all have widely different cent deviations
#29
You're asking the wrong person to sing out of tune, actually.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#30
Quote by NeoMvsEu
You're asking the wrong person to sing out of tune, actually.


What about your friend then? Takes two to tune, and should be considered when your are discussing the implications of period music and for whom it was written
#31
Takes one to tune in my head. Also, you never answered my question about sourcing your assumptions.

The point of counterpoint is to make independent lines. It has nothing to do with ease of singing. Parallel fifths run rampant in old, even vocal music.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#32
neo do you get jarred when a note is off? like atonal music using microtonal shifts to destabilize the tonic?
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#33
Quote by NeoMvsEu at #33729656
You're asking the wrong person to sing out of tune, actually.

i'll do this activity with you so we can just laugh at people who need a friend to tune

*tips fedora*
#34
Quote by Hail at #33729935
neo do you get jarred when a note is off? like atonal music using microtonal shifts to destabilize the tonic?

Slightly, but it's not as bad as when I sang in choir. Now that's a headsplitting experience.

Quote by :-D at #33729994
i'll do this activity with you so we can just laugh at people who need a friend to tune

*tips fedora*

Deal

Although if you can't get to China, I might just search for someone else on the streets :') No offense intended.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#35
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Takes one to tune in my head. Also, you never answered my question about sourcing your assumptions.

The point of counterpoint is to make independent lines. It has nothing to do with ease of singing. Parallel fifths run rampant in old, even vocal music.


My source is the music history course I completed dude. Multiple teachers talked about it. The fact that music was written for untrained singers comes up constantly. Independent voices is part of it but not the only reason. Avoiding them is a rule for chorales, which are for church congregations. They show up in motets and things written for troubadour and minstrel singers who were trained. But at that, most of these exceptions show up in anticipation of cadences

I'm sure you can tune in your head but that's not really the point is it. It takes two two sing and tune two individual vocal parts

This is a digression from my point that low limit ji systems yield very strange fifths. In my opinion, that has a lot to do with it
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Dec 15, 2015,
#36
I better forget about power chords then :-)

You need to be careful what era the advice comes from. Remember, these books reflect the "norm" choice of a few great composers at some point in history, and tastes change.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Dec 15, 2015,
#37
Jerry, I mentioned power chords because they weren't meant to be seen as independent voices, hence their irrelevance to current discussion.
Quote by bassalloverthe at #33730899
My source is the music history course I completed dude. Multiple teachers talked about it. The fact that music was written for untrained singers comes up constantly. Independent voices is part of it but not the only reason. Avoiding them is a rule for chorales, which are for church congregations. They show up in motets and things written for troubadour and minstrel singers who were trained. But at that, most of these exceptions show up in anticipation of cadences
Church chorales were so 16th century. Troubadours and minstrels? Way before then. Get your dates together, dude. Independent voices are definitely the main reason; any other benefits were a side-effect.

I'm sure you can tune in your head but that's not really the point is it. It takes two two sing and tune two individual vocal parts
Not in the 21st century!

This is a digression from my point that low limit ji systems yield very strange fifths. In my opinion, that has a lot to do with it
Human voices are not so rigid as to force into wolf intervals. And tuning systems are imperfect. Anyways.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#38
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Jerry, I mentioned power chords because they weren't meant to be seen as independent voices, hence their irrelevance to current discussion.
Church chorales were so 16th century. Troubadours and minstrels? Way before then. Get your dates together, dude. Independent voices are definitely the main reason; any other benefits were a side-effect.

Not in the 21st century!

Human voices are not so rigid as to force into wolf intervals. And tuning systems are imperfect. Anyways.



Bro there were minstrels until the 1900s

Are you really one of those people who can throat sing and sing normally at the same time? That's actually quite impressive

Tuning systems are imperfect. But they are necessary and when your organ is basically stuck in the tuning you get it in, it has an effect on the music
#39
Quote by Hail
neo do you get jarred when a note is off? like atonal music using microtonal shifts to destabilize the tonic?


like sometimes i show her xenharmonic foreign music and she gets all sad
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#40
Quote by Elintasokas
Yeah, but a lot of music couldn't care less about these independent voices when the chords are just used for a harmonic background.

...kind of

They still want some independence in the voices but often think more about the harmony almost as a single voice that follows the root. Often in rock you will get very strict parallel motion that follows the root and does not even account for diatonic thirds but just makes everything a major chord.

Same with powerchords. Someone already said they can be thought of as a single "reinforced" voice as opposed to independent lines. This is true. There are often other melodies going on at the same time that are independent. Weezer are a powerchord happy band. They love their powerchords. But at the same time they often make use of independent melodies.

So in some ways you might have two, three, or even four "lines" going at once but one might be the lead vocals, one might be back up vocals, one might be the guitar just playing powerchords, and you might have an independent bass line under all that. I can't think of examples off the top of my head but it's a different way of thinking how four part writing can be applied to pop/rock music.

I don't know how legit this kind of view would be in an academic setting but it works for me.

And as has been said many times in this thread but worth reinforcing these rules are often just for training and are never strictly applied in actual musical pieces.
Si
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