#1
http://youtu.be/ns0gVPviq4s

Anybody know what these chords are that Joe is playing here and refers to as "inside chords"?
I think they are substitutions for the E7,A7 and B7 like you would get in jazz but i'm not that far into my jazz theory to know them.Any clues?
#2
To me, inside chords are chords inside the key. I'd have to ear out what he was doing there when he said inside chords to see what they meant to him.

This video is terrible for learning guitar. If you're a fan of his and want to learn some of his influences, or watch him play, then the video is great, but like 90% of the video is just him showing off. You know, he says you learn it in blocks and here's the key of E, and then he goes and plays all sorts of stuff inside and outside the key etcetera. Idk, good guitar playing, bad lesson. The guitar playing was often rushed and without feel though, not like he was really playing, but just showing a bunch of stuff he can do real fast, too, so good in the sense that he knows his way around and can play fast, but I'm sure he can do a lot better musically.

The only thing I would really suggest you take from that, is learning to repeat your phrases anywhere on the neck, and be able to play in every key everywhere like that, but once you know one key the others are a lot easier, basically all the same. Or, the other useful thing would be to ear out any licks you want to learn.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Dec 14, 2015,
#3
Yeah,Thanks.I'm pretty good with blues and can play in any key.I take bits from alot of different influnces.I am trying to add different flavours to my playing.I play ninth chords and experiment with modes etc in the blues.I just really like the idea of adding different chords to add new textures into my playing(rather than just constant single note lines).Maybe i need to look into jazz concepts of chord substitutions a little.
#4
This seems like the sort of thing you might appreciate then. Idk if you've seen this before, but if you want to look at ways of making substitutions and playing 11ths and 9ths and 13ths etcetera, then Joe is a good source. He has another couple videos you can find on Youtube also, which are not Blues ones, but his philosophy in those could be applied to blues also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js_f-vbO43I
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Dec 14, 2015,
#5
Inside chords, or chord substitutions add a level of sophistication to the Blues by introducing jazz harmony, and opening up the Blues to different voicings. Robben Ford is one of the masters at this and I much prefer his approach to Joe Bonamassa. Joe can certainly still cut it up tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGlVdwQPNLw
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Dec 14, 2015,
#6
Quote by Cajundaddy
Inside chords, or chord substitutions add a level of sophistication to the Blues by introducing jazz harmony, and opening up the Blues to different voicings. Robben Ford is one of the masters at this and I much prefer his approach to Joe B. Joe can certainly still cut it up tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGlVdwQPNLw



Thanks for posting that. I never really heard of him before, but that was pretty cool. I will definitely play harmonic minor over something like a V-i or in other situations, but I guess I never really got to the point where I would build a scale from a voice leading like that, but its something I look into after ive mastered what im working on now.

His chord playing is similar to joe pass, except his solo philosoohy seems like it might be a bit different, and you can see how he mixes a bit more of a pass style with a bit more of a sort of bendy more bluesy sort of style, maybe a more modern style, like he was saying.

@OP if you watch that video, id consider the G13 and the C7 inside chords but not the Gb13 because that b13 is not in the key. Though technically neither is the 7 of C7. Thats where it gets a bit ambiguous to me, because tecnically a lot of the minor pent and the 7s for I and IV are not in G. But that minor pent has a very sort of inside sound in a way also. Its like a lvl2 inside sound. It has a bit of that outside sound, the real blues sound, but it sounds so strongly "right" as well, that someone may call that inside as well possibly. Whereas the actual key notes can sound very tame and bland in comparison. But for me, inside would be key notes. The minor pent would be outside, I guess, but then idk what would outside that would be called.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Dec 14, 2015,
#7
I think it refers triads within the harmony. C7 contains CEG (Cmaj triad) and EGBb (Edim triad). Add the 9, 13 and such and you can actually use a whole bunch of different triads over any particular chord because the notes function as extensions or suspensions of the harmony.

I'd suggest working on chord inversions and extended harmonies.
Last edited by cdgraves at Dec 14, 2015,
#8
Quote by cdgraves
I think it refers triads within the harmony. C7 contains CEG (Cmaj triad) and EGBb (Edim triad). Add the 9, 13 and such and you can actually use a whole bunch of different triads over any particular chord because the notes function as extensions or suspensions of the harmony.

I'd suggest working on chord inversions and extended harmonies.


You're not wrong, but if you go with simply the plan to play any chords that create a more lush harmony that way, like your example, and the extensions are not part of the key, it will generally sound off, unless you're doing some kind of voice leading, or something like that.

So, you could play BDF over CEG in key of C, and that will work great. But in key of F, not so much, because that B would need to be a Bb, usually. But if you played a Bb major chord, Bb-D-F and then you played BDF and then you played CEG, in the key of F, that will sound great, because you did voice leading, from the IV root to the V root. That's actually one of my favourite ways to use diminished chords. In fact I just finished writing a bridge that does exactly that, except from V-vi.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Dec 14, 2015,
#9
Yes, I should have been mores specific: "Whole bunch of different triads that relate to the chord". And as the Bonamassa video shows, there's generally a strong melodic element to this kind of comping. Just playing a naked off-root triad will probably sound weird, so it's important to think in terms of a melodic relationship to the basic chord.
Last edited by cdgraves at Dec 14, 2015,
#10
Quote by Cajundaddy
Inside chords, or chord substitutions add a level of sophistication to the Blues by introducing jazz harmony, and opening up the Blues to different voicings. Robben Ford is one of the masters at this and I much prefer his approach to Joe Bonamassa. Joe can certainly still cut it up tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGlVdwQPNLw
I have actually seen this and experimented a little with the Gb13 and the altered scale.Robben is awesome and truly unique.This video is very inspirational.
#11
Quote by fingrpikingood
This seems like the sort of thing you might appreciate then. Idk if you've seen this before, but if you want to look at ways of making substitutions and playing 11ths and 9ths and 13ths etcetera, then Joe is a good source. He has another couple videos you can find on Youtube also, which are not Blues ones, but his philosophy in those could be applied to blues also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js_f-vbO43I

Yeah i saw this too.Joe Pass is an amazing player.I remember finding this very hard to keep up with and to get my head around the concepts.
#12
Quote by EyeballPaul
Yeah i saw this too.Joe Pass is an amazing player.I remember finding this very hard to keep up with and to get my head around the concepts.


He goes through it quickly, but it's not that bad. I guess it depends on what you know so far.

I think I could probably explain to you a big part of what you can do in a very easy way, but I'd have to make my own video for that.

One difficult aspect of what he's explaining, is substitutions, where he'll say "you can treat a minor chord like a dominant chord, so you can substitute a minor for a dom7." Which is true, but his substitutions are not a new grip for the same chord, right? So, sure, you can insert that chord at that time, but it's like saying in a given sentence, I can exchange the noun or verb with another noun or verb. Well, yes you can, but now you're changing the meaning of the sentence though. So, you can't just randomly go through these substitutions. You could, and should at first, to get to know them, but he is not working off of theoretical principles when he plays. He knows what everything sounds like, and he's going for those sounds. He's just explaining what he is doing. Just like when you write a sentence, you are not randomly choosing nouns and verbs, you know which ones you are choosing, but if you were teaching a korean person how to speak english, you have to teach them sentence structure, because theirs is different. You' tell them, subject verb noun, kind of thing, and any subject can replace any other, and any noun any other, but that doesn't mean that you will be able to write poetry by just selecting nouns and at random. It doesn't work that way. You need to be deliberate with music. I mean, you can make slip ups, and shots in the dark here or there, but if you do, that needs to trigger deliberate action, or the performance will be lacking, and will sound bland and generic.

So, that video and his other one, which you should checkout, if you haven't, because it might explain better, are big workloads. It's not enough to just hear him explain all the possible substitutions. You need to learn them all by sound.

For some stuff he does his substitutions are great, and the style he plays, his substitutions are cool, but his substitutions sometimes change the progression quite a lot. It's cool if you're just listening to him go, but he will do substitutions of the sort that pop music would consider suitable for a different section, so if you played a pop song that way, you'd lose the sort of fundamental feel of the pop song. For example. if the piece has a C, and you sub for Am7. For him, that's a good sub, and it is, just moving one note, the root, that's it, but, that change is musically impactful. It's not just "well every time you see 'C' just play 'Am7' and that will be awesome." You're changing shit when you do that, and you need to know if that's what you want or not, based on where you were and where you're going. It's not just randomly interchangeable things.