#1
Hey guys I am a long time player but am new to gigging, just joined my first real band a few months ago. I am already sick of hauling around my half stack and having to turn down to 2 because it's too loud. So anyway I have been looking into amp sims and found Joyo pedals and they sound pretty descent to me, what is the general consensus on them? From youtube videos they sound pretty good but does anyone have any experience with them? Also any other recommendations would be awesome! Not line 6 though, I have already dumped way to much money into various Pods
#3
I'd recommend a Zoom G3/5 over the Joyo stuff - actually, personally I'd recommend it over Line 6.

For gigging though, I'd recommend thinking harder about the direction you're going. You say you're considering this merely because you're tired of hauling around a half stack, but that seems like a cop out to me. Don't think about whether you're tired of carrying the kit around, think about whether it's giving you the sound you want. And definitely stop caring what number the volume is set on.

What amp do you currently have, what other kit do you use, what type of music do you play, and what budget do you have for upgrading your current setup?
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#4
^+1

If you really want to downsize, look into a good 1x12 combo
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#5
Quote by Robbgnarly
^+1

If you really want to downsize, look into a good 1x12 combo


This is what I was going to suggest. Or at least put wheels on your cab or get a moving dolly.

Or a 2x12 cab.
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#6
I've got the JOYO American Sound. I've got it because I really didn't like the clean sound of the practise amp I have with me away from the parents house (Blackstar HT1). The pedal definitely brings something to the table and gives me something I feel sounds much better and have been complimented on when I've played live mic'd through a PA.
The pedal is kinda quiet, but still a wee bit noisy at times, but for the price is pretty ace if you are looking for the fender-esque sounds either through a meh amp or straight into a desk/interface (which I've also done with it)

I would agree with everyone though, check what you are really wanting to achieve. If you want a cheaper modelling thing is one thing, but if you are wanting a lighter alternative to your half-stack that's another and there probably are better options out there
#7
Quote by tmaxb
Hey guys I am a long time player but am new to gigging, just joined my first real band a few months ago. I am already sick of hauling around my half stack and having to turn down to 2 because it's too loud. So anyway I have been looking into amp sims and found Joyo pedals and they sound pretty descent to me, what is the general consensus on them? From youtube videos they sound pretty good but does anyone have any experience with them? Also any other recommendations would be awesome! Not line 6 though, I have already dumped way to much money into various Pods


Ok, here's some advice from someone who has gigged every type of venue, from bars to outdoor festivals: get a small 1x12 combo amp with about 15 to 30 watts, tops.

Stacks and half stacks are completely unnecessary and terrible to carry around. Sims are going to be a monitoring nightmare - you don't want to rely on a soundman or a PA to hear your guitar because you either won't hear yourself properly or it'll sound terrible, or both.

A small combo you can control - you can place it just behind you and you'll be monitoring your guitar directly from the amp ( which sounds infinitely better than anything coming from a PA speaker ), with little need for any of your guitar through the stage monitors, leaving them available for vocals and bass.

The idea of sims being easier and less hassle than an amp for gigging is completely false - it's more trouble, more work, sounds worse and will cause you massive headaches when setting up.
#8
Quote by reverb66
Ok, here's some advice from someone who has gigged every type of venue, from bars to outdoor festivals: get a small 1x12 combo amp with about 15 to 30 watts, tops.

Stacks and half stacks are completely unnecessary and terrible to carry around. Sims are going to be a monitoring nightmare - you don't want to rely on a soundman or a PA to hear your guitar because you either won't hear yourself properly or it'll sound terrible, or both.

A small combo you can control - you can place it just behind you and you'll be monitoring your guitar directly from the amp ( which sounds infinitely better than anything coming from a PA speaker ), with little need for any of your guitar through the stage monitors, leaving them available for vocals and bass.


Not really

I was with you upto the 15-300watt thing then everything after that is bullcrap

many amps are not available in low wattage forms or the higher wattage ones sound different. And there is a magical knob known as a volume knob on an amp. Just because it can go to 11 doesn't mean it has to go to 11.

4x12 cabs are just fine and really easy to move. casters are an amazing invention. I can move my 1/2 stack just as easy if not easier than a combo by simply pushing it.

A good PA will sound just fine for monitoring

I've toured the US several times in bands and I am a semi-professional live sound engineer
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
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Morley Bad Horsie 2
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#9
Quote by Robbgnarly
Not really

I was with you upto the 15-300watt thing then everything after that is bullcrap

many amps are not available in low wattage forms or the higher wattage ones sound different. And there is a magical knob known as a volume knob on an amp. Just because it can go to 11 doesn't mean it has to go to 11.

4x12 cabs are just fine and really easy to move. casters are an amazing invention. I can move my 1/2 stack just as easy if not easier than a combo by simply pushing it.

A good PA will sound just fine for monitoring

I've toured the US several times in bands and I am a semi-professional live sound engineer


1) 4x 12 are easy to move? Casters may be an amazing invention, but so are stairs...and they're everywhere ! You know what else is an amazing invention? - regular sized vehicles and small stages - those are also everywhere. As a sound engineer you should know better than anyone that a 100 watt 4x12 amp in a small venue is a nightmare for stage volume and volume generally. Also, those amps sound like ass at low volumes and to hit the sweetspot you end up being disproportionately loud for almost any venue but a large concert hall or outdoor venue. 4x12 cabs and 100 watt heads are impractical and unnecessary for almost any situation. I'm not saying a small amp sounds the same, they don't, but the practicality makes up for it and that's the subject of this thread.

2) as a sound engineer and touring guitarist - you should also be aware that the whole point of low wattage amps is so that you can hit the sweet spot at a lower volume.

3) Stage monitors sound terrible, basically all of the time. A guitar coming through a typical stage monitor tends sound much worse than what you get straight out of the amp speaker.

Most musicians aren't touring around in a giant tour bus with a soundman- they're driving to local gigs with a car or a small van at best - so size and portability of the gear matters, alot. Stage volume is also a huge issue for many types of music because the vocal needs to cut through and be clear. Most bars don't even have soundmans and even when you do have access to one, the stage sound sounds terrible 90% of the time because they don't care and they don't have time to care - they're focused on the sound in the audience.
Last edited by reverb66 at Dec 24, 2015,
#10
tl;dr all

I would keep using the half stack and head for as many gigs as possible. I would try to get it mic'ed in a back room so I could turn it up some, but really you do not need to have it dimed, on stage or mic'ed. I like to bring my best wherever I play so I sacrifice some energy to move big pieces of equipment. And plus it will help keep you in shape. :p

For gigs that are too small a venue for a half stack or physical amp, for any reason, use a sim pedal direct to PA. The Joyo stuff gets good reviews because relative to their price they are great. If you want to get something higher-tier, Tech 21 Sansamps are good too.

Also getting a smaller amp is not a bad option either. Or even just a 2x12 rather than a 4x12.
Last edited by Will Lane at Dec 24, 2015,
#11
Quote by reverb66
1) 4x 12 are easy to move? Casters may be an amazing invention, but so are stairs...and they're everywhere ! You know what else is an amazing invention? - regular sized vehicles and small stages - those are also everywhere. As a sound engineer you should know better than anyone that a 100 watt 4x12 amp in a small venue is a nightmare for stage volume and volume generally. Also, those amps sound like ass at low volumes and to hit the sweetspot you end up being disproportionately loud for almost any venue but a large concert hall or outdoor venue. 4x12 cabs and 100 watt heads are impractical and unnecessary for almost any situation. I'm not saying a small amp sounds the same, they don't, but the practicality makes up for it and that's the subject of this thread.

2) as a sound engineer and touring guitarist - you should also be aware that the whole point of low wattage amps is so that you can hit the sweet spot at a lower volume.

3) Stage monitors sound terrible, basically all of the time. A guitar coming through a typical stage monitor tends sound much worse than what you get straight out of the amp speaker.

Most musicians aren't touring around in a giant tour bus with a soundman- they're driving to local gigs with a car or a small van at best - so size and portability of the gear matters, alot. Stage volume is also a huge issue for many types of music because the vocal needs to cut through and be clear. Most bars don't even have soundmans and even when you do have access to one, the stage sound sounds terrible 90% of the time because they don't care and they don't have time to care - they're focused on the sound in the audience.

yes they are easy to move, drink your milk and eat your Wheaties.

having a small car or no transportation is a personal issue, I don't and many people don't have that issue.

The sweet spot argument doesn't hold merit in many instances, besides a 30 watt amp can be brutally loud. I have had many bands turn their cabs backwards or invest in a plexi-glass barrier

It is having the right tool for the job. I toured with a 4x12 a 2x12 and a 1x12 with 2 heads that would run what I needed for the venue.

I can agree with your last paragraph, and that is why I originally suggested a 1x12 combo.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Last edited by Robbgnarly at Dec 24, 2015,
#12
Quote by tmaxb
Not line 6 though, I have already dumped way to much money into various Pods


Out of curiosity, why could you not find what you needed from the "various Pods."

I'm slowly reducing my 4x12 collection...

When you're touring with trucks, or even with a small bus, you can cart around 4x12s, full-size Leslies, Hammond B3s, 8x10 bass fridges, etc. When you have slaves and lackies (or even someone to guard each end of the load-in/load-out chain against theft), carting all this stuff around is easy enough.

When you show up in a Honda Civic, things change. These days I can haul a *pair* of full-range speakers that will handle up to 900W each (in case I have to wake up a drummer), a 9-lb 1500W power amp in a rack case with a modeler, a couple of guitars and a wife or girlfriend, and cart everything into a venue in a single go (if I've done my Wheaties), especially if the wife/girlfriend can cart some of the fiddly bits. Fact is, I've got one who can one-hand a speaker cab (they're only about 40 lbs), but she spends rather too much time in one of those MMA gyms.
#13
Quote by Robbgnarly
yes they are easy to move, drink your milk and eat your Wheaties.

having a small car or no transportation is a personal issue, I don't and many people don't have that issue.

The sweet spot argument doesn't hold merit in many instances, besides a 30 watt amp can be brutally loud. I have had many bands turn their cabs backwards or invest in a plexi-glass barrier

It is having the right tool for the job. I toured with a 4x12 a 2x12 and a 1x12 with 2 heads that would run what I needed for the venue.

I can agree with your last paragraph, and that is why I originally suggested a 1x12 combo.



Right now I tour about 9-10 months out of the year doing literally hundreds of performances. I found a 1x2 to be the best fit, along with a pedal board that can handle most if not all backlines.

A 1x2 is smaller, but still strong, and if you're using a trailer where real estate is at a premium you can even afford a travel case to keep it safe.

Also, and this is just a personal add on to what was previously said, who cares if your monitors sound less than perfect? You're mic'd, thats WHAT its going to sound like outside of the stage (whether or not the monitors and speakers sound the same or not). you dont have control over that, you just don't. If you are so concerned with how your amp sounds coming out of the monitor that just lets you hear yourself play, you're playing for yourself and not the crowd.


I'm lucky enough that I run my own IEM system, but even that isn't about how my guitar sounds in my head, just how the levels are in my head. I know my amp sounds great, I don't need a monitor to tell me that. the sound is for everyone else.

Anyway, I play all these shows and I am always mic'd. Yea theres a sweet spot, but theres also great tone coming out at multiple spots. just find it and stick with it. don't be the annoying guitarist every sound guy makes fun of the next day.


I strongly recommend a 1x12 amp that you love if you're having that much of an issue. I only downsized to save room in the trailer. And the amp is dope.
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#14
I'm with reverb66 on this issue. I play regular weekly gigs and the idea of dragging around a half stack is not possible on several levels. First there is just not enough room for big amps drums, bass and keyboards on these little stages if you are lucky enough to have a stage at all. There certainly isn't room over in the corner near the bar where they removed two tables so your whole band can fit in that 10' X 5' area right next to the window with the flashing beer signs. Big rigs have their place on big stages and in big rooms. Yes using a much smaller amp is a major compromise, but that's reality.
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Last edited by Rickholly74 at Dec 24, 2015,
#15
God forbid somebody speak ill of or dislike Line 6. Haha.

On a serious note, you need the right tools for the right job. When I was gigging regularly, sometimes a combo does fine, some its a 4x12".

However I firmly believe that you should not just play your best, but also sound your best. I will make take another trip to set up or teardown and lift a little more weight to sound the best i can.
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youre just being a jerk man.



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#16
Thanks for all the suggestions guys! So I do have a descent 40 watt 1x12 that I used at a gig last week but even that on half power was too loud for the venue. Most of the venues around my area, East Idaho, are pretty small and shitty so even 20 watts is too powerful and every single one I have been to insists on micing amps. I also am a college student so my budget is highly limited. So I guess my real question is what is the cheapest solution that won't sound too digital?
#17
How about you just flip the speaker around away from the stage and have them mic that?

I think you probably need to change amps for something like 5-15 watters.

I am not sure what amp you currently have, but overall as far as versatility goes look at the Marshall DSL15C, Laney VC15, Marshall Class5, Fender Blues Jr.

You can also look at the Tech21 TM30, which is an all analog modeling amp, so it will sound good at lower volumes.

There are other options if you want to keep your current amp, like power soaks.
#18
Quote by diabolical
How about you just flip the speaker around away from the stage and have them mic that?

I think you probably need to change amps for something like 5-15 watters.

I am not sure what amp you currently have, but overall as far as versatility goes look at the Marshall DSL15C, Laney VC15, Marshall Class5, Fender Blues Jr.

You can also look at the Tech21 TM30, which is an all analog modeling amp, so it will sound good at lower volumes.

There are other options if you want to keep your current amp, like power soaks.


Thanks man! I'll try facing the flipping the speaker at my next gig and see how it goes. I think the consensus here is that I should get a smaller amp which I guess is the best thing to do but I have very little funds at the moment. Guess I'll start saving!
#19
A plexiglass shield thing could be a good thing too.
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Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
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#20
As one who has lived and performed through five decades of popular music, I would agree that heavy half stacks and mighty amps are totally unecessary in today's technology environment, other than the visual impression they leave on audiences.

Back in the days of big concerts and underpowered PA systems they were necessary, but that's really no longer the case. Most big name pros (outside of metal) don't use them anymore and have opted for much smaller and more manageable rigs. The real downside to using these older style massive rigs is they introduce some pretty significant limitations on creating the clear and well balanced mix in music that audiences are now used to.

Live performance is now becoming FAR closer to the way studio recording was traditionally done prior to home studios. And the expectation of audiences is for something close to a well mixed and articulated sound they're used to hearing on their downloads whether that be in big outdoor venue or a small bar. The equipment available today makes that a very possible reality at relatively reasonable prices. But you first have to abandon the cliche's and predjudices and embrace the technology that enables such things.

I've performed and run sound in a variety large scale multi-band events, and the MOST common problem tends to be with bands that insist on using big stacks because they inevitably cause problems in achieving a good audience mix because of the overbleed of sound coming from the stage. There is a general formula for where things need to sit in a mix regardless of the style of music. In ALL styles of music the vocals need to be out front, and big, overpowered rigs make that almost impossible.

That doesn't mean you have to place your destiny in the hands of the soundman. Using the right equipment with disciplined musicians on stage, you can achieve a reasonable stage mix in which you can hear yourself and the other musicians without the aggressive intervention of monitor mixing.

My rig consists of a POD HD500X and a Yamaha DXR12 loudspeaker/monitor for stage sound with a direct XLR line out of the POD to the mixing board. I can play at whatever volume is necessary to be heard on stage and mix well with everyone else on stage and leave the heavy lifting for the audience sound to the soundman. The added advantage to this type of approach other than lugging big equipment around is a relatively clean stage which is important in smaller venues with limited stage areas.

I don't mind lugging around and setting up heavy equipment, as long as it's the PA.
Last edited by dunedindragon at Dec 25, 2015,
#21
Quote by trashedlostfdup
God forbid somebody speak ill of or dislike Line 6. Haha.


I'm good with that, actually, as long as it's from personal experience lasting more than 15 minutes in a store, and as long as they're not simply bashing a whole brand based on a single example or a cheapo beginner amp. It's also helpful to know whether the basher simply gave up because something was too complicated for him, or he didn't know how to use it properly, etc. And the Internet is replete with those who simply parrot some opinion they've heard elsewhere, and have never touched the gear in the flesh.

My first experience with a Variax guitar wasn't a good one, frankly. For example, I thought that the acoustic models sounded like crap in a blender. I was listening to them played through a standard guitar amp. Then I heard someone playing the same models through a PA-type system, and it was a whole different experience. I didn't realize that they needed the same kind of extended range that a real miked acoustic would need. So I took another look.

Same thing with my first experience with a Pod XT. I heard it through a Marshall half stack, and thought, "Okay, moving on..." Absolutely the wrong environment. Later heard one recorded by someone who knew how to use it, and thought, "You've GOT to be kidding me..." Like night and day.

I was the same way with keyboards. I grew up with a Hammond B3, a big expensive Japanese grand piano and a Fender Rhodes 88. "No little furball of electronics can ever match that," sez I, " And it can never FEEL the same." These days I haul around a Korg Kronos and a PA3X. Stupid thing has every instrument imaginable, a whole lot of things that you *can't* imagine AND both keys have 16-track sequencers.

I don't mind "speaking ill" and "disliking." But it helps to know *what* they know about the things they're dissing.
#23
Dspellman - PODs are great. I owned an x3 a few years ago. I borrowed a m13 from a friend to check it out it was fine, but i didn't really need it for what I play. I won't get on the whole spider thing, there are plenty of threads on that. I have had time on a line 6 products. You are a good guy but i think you are a bit of a line 6 fanboi
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Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#24
Quote by Will Lane
Add some acoustic proofing as well and you're set.


Polyfill is cheap and works great for sound dampening.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/