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#1
Hey Guys ,

what would you recommend to get a good Metal Sound at home? Willing to pay max 2500€ but keeping an eye on price-performance.

Bands i like are Lamb of God, Machinehead, Slipknot, Pantera.

Which category would you go for?

-Preamplifiers
like Boss GT-100 or Line 6 POD HD500, Kemper etc

-"Big" Tube Amps (50,100 Watt+)
like Peavey 6505+, Engl Fireball 100 etc

-"Small" Tube Amps (1-20 Watt)
like Orange Tiny Terror, Engl Metal Master etc

-Tube Combos
like Blackstar HT-Club 40 or Engl Screamer 50

Thanks for any participation
Last edited by slayer87lp at Dec 26, 2015,
#2
Depends on what kind of metal sound you want.

For that kind of money, I'd mostly be looking at the bigger heads (50w or higher) with a nice 2x12 to go with it (or a 4x12, but imo it doesn't offer much of a benefit for home use).

Screamer's an all around nice package. Very versatile, probably one of the nicer things for around 1000€ new. But if you want to spend more, a head + cab is worthwhile imo.

But, what range of tones do you need? Metal could mean Black Sabbath or straight up grindcore, or anything inbetween.
#3
Quote by TheQuailman

But, what range of tones do you need? Metal could mean Black Sabbath or straight up grindcore, or anything inbetween.

Thats a bit tricky.. I focus on Modern Metal like Lamb of God and Machine Head, Slipknot but also bit older stuff like Megadeath, Metallica Pantera (not sure if you could call em Modern Metal too im not good with these terms ^^)
#4
Machine Head is 6505 (or more accurately 5150 but its the same amp) crunch channel boosted with tubescreamer overdrive. When comes to metal amps (be it classic or modern) 6505 is a safe choice that does everything right. Only problem with the bedroom use is the lack of global master volume which makes adjusting volume rather sensitive job but it can be done. Also the clean channel is quite meh... Peavey XXX (called peavey 3120 today as new) is easier to adjust for bedroom but the sound is bit Thrashier (which is a good thing for your megadeth tastes) than 6505. But I still recommed to take a look. Crunch channel + overdrive for modern sounds and bare lead channel for all out death metal madness if you develop a taste for it.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Dec 26, 2015,
#5
Im pretty happy with 2x12 (behringer, rather cheap but does the trick) a valvestate 8100. What's really pushing it over the edge for the perfect sound (metallica, slayer, death) is an MXR multiband eq.

What i wanna say here are two things, first invest in an MXR. Or any mutliband eq, but this really helps to fine-adjust the defintion. Second, it doesn't _have_ to be expensive. If you wanna go for expensive then congratulations that's fine also
\\>Viva Los Tioz<//
#6
Quote by MaaZeus
6505 is a safe choice that does everything right.

Should i go 6505 or 6505+? I heard its kind of noisy and doesnt have a noise gate.
#8
Quote by TheQuailman
The + has a nicer clean channel.

Weren't you the guy with the Engl Artist Edition? What cab are you running?

Yup Orange Cab with v30 2x12"
Last edited by slayer87lp at Dec 26, 2015,
#9
Ok, cool.

Your amp should be able to do the modern metal type tones very well. Problem is it apparently just doesn't suit your tastes. Can you describe what about it doesn't work for you?

You might try an OD pedal up front, see if that helps. If not, it's worthwhile to try a couple of amps that kind of set the standards for modern metal tones. Popular choices being the 5150/6505, Mesa Rectifier, Engl Savage (or any other Engl, really).
Since you are in Europe, a Diezel VH4/Herbert/Einstein would also be within budget and not too hard to track down, or maybe a Framus Cobra.
#10
Quote by slayer87lp
Should i go 6505 or 6505+? I heard its kind of noisy and doesnt have a noise gate.


6505 has bit ballsier distortion, + is tighter (less need for overdrive) and has better cleans. But they are amps from the same family and the differences are quite small.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
#11
Quote by TheQuailman
Can you describe what about it doesn't work for you?
.

Oh well. I like it but when i think about when i played the peavey 6505+ in the shop I really liked the Sound when i played Log. The Engl sounds really nice but for some stuff i play it doesnt sound brutal enough to me. Maybe a Distortion pedal will fix it. Ill definetly go back to the shop even though its 2h driving.

I´ve seen the Diezel Einstein in a video and really liked it but i dont think I can play it somewhere near.
#12
You know, you can get a used 6505 for around 500€. Keep the Engl, get the Peavey, have all bases covered. Still easily within budget.
#13
Quote by TheQuailman
You know, you can get a used 6505 for around 500€. Keep the Engl, get the Peavey, have all bases covered. Still easily within budget.

yeah within budget but actually i thought id only spend that much to get something like a kemper and not sure my dad will be super happy with that because he has to pay lol

I actually made this thread because my uncle (30 years of guitar exp vs me playing guitar about 6 years) and he told me getting a tube amp is outdated and everybody nowadays plays Preamp stuff from line 6&co didnt believe him anyway but just to make sure ^^
#14
Quote by slayer87lp
Hey Guys ,

what would you recommend to get a good Metal Sound at home? Willing to pay max 2500€ but keeping an eye on price-performance.

-Preamplifiers
like Boss GT-100 or Line 6 POD HD500, Kemper etc


I have tube amps at all levels of output power, but for home use, I use preamps. This has been true *before* there were Pods, Kempers, etc. I have rack-mount tube-based preamps (Carvin Quad-X, Mesa Triaxis) and, more recently, some Pods and an Axe-FX Ultra.

With any of the preamps, you have a wide range of choices for output, including good headphones for silent practice, powered recording monitors (I have a pair of KRK Rokit 8's), powered speakers (full range flat response PA types work pretty well) and power amps (both tube and solid state) feeding into full-range flat response speaker cabinets and even PA systems.

There's a really wide range of modeling preamps (Pods, the Line 6 Helix, Kempers, Zooms, various Kempers and Axe-FX choices). If you're doing metal at home, there's really no need to spend big bucks, either. A Pod HD series and a copy of Meambobbo's Tone Guide (http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/ ) will cover an amazing range of bases.

My advice is to avoid going upscale unless and until there's something absolutely specific that you need that you can't accomplish with the less expensive gear, but that you KNOW you can with the more expensive spread.
#15
Quote by slayer87lp
yeah within budget but actually i thought id only spend that much to get something like a kemper and not sure my dad will be super happy with that because he has to pay lol

I actually made this thread because my uncle (30 years of guitar exp vs me playing guitar about 6 years) and he told me getting a tube amp is outdated and everybody nowadays plays Preamp stuff from line 6&co didnt believe him anyway but just to make sure ^^


Well, not everybody but modeling is clearly the future. As far as bedroom use goes I prefer the real thing because Im not after sounding like a recording but having the amp with all its good sides and faults. Though my experience is limited to Line6 stuff my experience says they are nothing like a real thing compared to a big ass tube amp and a good cab pushing a lot of air. But when you are recording an album then all bets are off because when you put a mic infront of the cab and record its nothing like what you hear in real life. Same goes for miced gigs. I say this is where modeling shines because they can reproduce that miced sound.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
#16
Quote by dspellman

There's a really wide range of modeling preamps (Pods, the Line 6 Helix, Kempers, Zooms, various Kempers and Axe-FX choices).

I got a Zoom a few years ago.. It was just pretty cheap around 250€ a normal interface. I only played it with headphones and it had all amps like peavey 5150 and Dual rectifier and stuff but they all sounded like shit so im a bit scared to go for such a thing again because the Zoom was pretty well rated like this other stuff too. I guess you cant trust Thomann ratings anyway ^^

Actually im not even sure what Output options i have. Do i need a Power Amp afterwards?
Last edited by slayer87lp at Dec 26, 2015,
#17
I've got a Kemper and I absolutely love it. It sounds great both at home through my monitors as on stage through a PA or through a cab. Serves me very well.

However, if you're doing one (big) genre and only that, I'd just get the amp you really want to go after. The big plus of the Kemper and other digital modellers is their versatility. If I didn't need that versatility, I'd probably just get the amp I wanted and be done with it.
#18
Quote by I K0nijn I
It sounds great both at home through my monitors as on stage through a PA or through a cab.

As a german i never got what "monitors" are can you explain? Normal speakers with 6,3mm cable?
#19
Quote by slayer87lp
As a german i never got what "monitors" are can you explain? Normal speakers with 6,3mm cable?


The small studio speakers meant for "monitoring" the sound. Think of them neutral speakers that you listen close up compared to hifi speakers that usually sit far away from the listener. Google Genelec and you will understand what we are talking about.

And dont base your opinion about 5150/6505 on a modeler. Listen the real thing if you can. The amp is one of the most popular metal amps for a reason.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Dec 26, 2015,
#21
Quote by slayer87lp
yeah within budget but actually i thought id only spend that much to get something like a kemper and not sure my dad will be super happy with that because he has to pay lol

I actually made this thread because my uncle (30 years of guitar exp vs me playing guitar about 6 years) and he told me getting a tube amp is outdated and everybody nowadays plays Preamp stuff from line 6&co didnt believe him anyway but just to make sure ^^

Oddly enough, tube amps are still selling like hot cakes. There was a craze about modellers some time back when the first properly good ones entered the market (Line6 Flextone, H&K ZenAmp). But they are tools for a job, not the second coming of Jesus in amp-form like some people expected, and have their limitations. If you want the sound of a 6505 and little else, it's usually easier to just get a 6505.
Personally, I don't recommend modellers unless you need the versatility. I don't like having to navigate through a couple menues to edit my sound, particularly not on stage, I just find it tedious to work with. Done that, not doing it again. Really cool for tinkerers at home though, and for home-recording.
#23
I've got two pieces of advice for you on this as someone who's gone through this conundrum.

The first is that it's so subjective, the best way to decide is to go play amps. You've already got enough experience with your current rig to know what you don't like about it, so go sit down at a shop and try to find something that'll fill in those missing points for you. The basic reference points here (6505, XXX, etc) are good starting places, but ultimately you're going to want to try out amps with YOUR guitar, because that affects the tone as well.

The second is that all these suggestions are well and good for gigging, but there is zero percent of a reason to need a all-tube head with a 2x12 in your bedroom. In order to get accurate, or even GOOD tone from most all tube amps in the wattage range you're looking at/being suggested here, you have to drive the tubes, which means you need to be able to use the volume knob with more than a lover's tap. I'm not sure if you live in a house or apartment, and how close you are to your neighbors, but take it from someone who can't raise the volume of their XXX combo past 1.5 without having the cops knock on my door, you're better off doing what I did and getting a nice practice combo. I wouldn't gig with a solid state for any reason, but for home/bedroom practice, they're great and the tech has come a long, LONG way since the late 80's and early 90's when I started playing. If SS really prickles you up, look for a hybrid. If you absolutely have to have tube, look at Orange's Tiny Terror/Dark Terror, or the 6505 mini.

The Dark Terror comes with a variable 15W/7W switch, is all tube, and has an FX loop. The 6505 Mini sports a 20/5/1-watt toggle, has 2 Channels, a 3-band EQ, Direct Out, Effects Loop, Reverb on board, USB out, and Headphone Out. They'll run you between $500 and $700 US. You could plug either right into your current cab

If you're not hell-bent on valve, Blackstar is doing some really great things with their ID:Core amps. They're good, solid-state practice amps that have what I consider amazing tone and modeling for the money, and considering it's a solid-state amp. Would I gig with it? Absolutely not. But it beats the hell out of my XXX for bedroom/home jamming because I can get some volume out of it.

Hope this helped at least a bit, and good luck.

“We’re built of contradictions, all of us. It’s those opposing forces that give us strength, like an arch, each block pressing the next. Give me a man whose parts are all aligned in agreement and I’ll show you madness. We walk a narrow path, insanity to each side. A man without contradictions to balance him will soon veer off.”



silentfall.bandcamp.com
Last edited by an.interloper at Dec 26, 2015,
#24
For metal you do NOT need to crank the tube amp. The tone comes from the preamp and you are already cranking them by turning the gain up. Power amp has to stay clean which high wattage helps with. Volume is irrelevant. My Bugera 333 tube amp (XXX clone) sounds awesome, better than RG1503 and Marshall Valvestate solid states (and i like both) and this is all through 2x12 cab with V30 speakers, bedroom volumes that maxes out at shouting levels depending on if neighbour barber is working or not.

Unless you play classic rock where power amp saturation is desireable the claim that you need to turn the tube amp loud is a myth that needs to die in a fire.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Dec 26, 2015,
#25
Quote by an.interloper

Hope this helped at least a bit, and good luck.

Yeah it helped ofc! Thanks. I´ve already been to a store and played a bunch of amps and i took one home but im not 100% sure with it you know. I also might consider getting a small blackstar Head Like the HT5

and btw I can turn my amp up really loud im living in a small village but I really dont wanna do that to my ears ^^
Last edited by slayer87lp at Dec 26, 2015,
#26
Quote by MaaZeus
For metal you do NOT need to crank the tube amp.

Yeah most of the time not but when i cranked up the Orange Dark Terror up it sounded pretty awesome ^^
#27
Quote by slayer87lp
Yeah most of the time not but when i cranked up the Orange Dark Terror up it sounded pretty awesome ^^


Aye, but so does solid state. Loud always sounds better than quiet. Much like when you hear your favourite song on radio: you turn it up loud, you want to feel the air moving. Also speakers play a huge role, some need volume to work their best.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Dec 26, 2015,
#28
Quote by an.interloper

The first is that it's so subjective, the best way to decide is to go play amps.

And yeah i already did that but i was in the Amp room for like 3 hours and was only able to play like 10 amps from 30
#29
Quote by slayer87lp
As a german i never got what "monitors" are can you explain? Normal speakers with 6,3mm cable?


There are recording monitors (designed for studio use at a distance of 6-8 feet) that are relatively small (5"-8" woofers), often have built-in amplification, like these:



And then there are PA Monitors (also sometimes called wedges) designed to allow musicians to hear specific parts of the mix in live performances:



#30
Quote by TheQuailman
Oddly enough, tube amps are still selling like hot cakes. There was a craze about modellers some time back when the first properly good ones entered the market (Line6 Flextone, H&K ZenAmp). But they are tools for a job, not the second coming of Jesus in amp-form like some people expected, and have their limitations. If you want the sound of a 6505 and little else, it's usually easier to just get a 6505.
Personally, I don't recommend modellers unless you need the versatility. I don't like having to navigate through a couple menues to edit my sound, particularly not on stage, I just find it tedious to work with. Done that, not doing it again. Really cool for tinkerers at home though, and for home-recording.


I'm not sure that the marketing data bears out your assertion that "tube amps are still selling like hot cakes." Nor have modellers been through a "craze" that's declined. Most marketing data is pretty clear that modeling amps of all kinds dominate the amp market and that modelers are still selling at an ever-increasing pace.

That aside, "If you want the sound of a 6505 and little else, it's usually easier to just get a 6505" is absolutely correct.

But if any kind of versatility is worthwhile to you, a modeler is probably where you'll want to be.

TheQuailman's personal modus operandi with modelers, however, is not where live performers want (or need) to be -- "having to navigate through a couple menus to edit my sound" doesn't suit live performers. And most don't. It *would* be tedious. That's why user presets are available on almost every modeler.

I can organize an entire setlist on the computer, download it to the channels and banks on the modeler, and make changes with the foot switching.

I can tell you it's FAR more complicated to run through menus on something like a Korg Kronos keyboard, so keyboard players have long since learned to organize their sounds into presets and set lists. Playing for an entire musical production (for example) every night would be impossible without them.

So it's not JUST versatility that's improved with a modeler, but live performance as well.
#31
Quote by dspellman
Most marketing data is pretty clear that modeling amps of all kinds dominate the amp market and that modelers are still selling at an ever-increasing pace.


So do you think the Kemper would be a good choice? Or do you know any other good Modeling amps?
#32
Quote by dspellman
I'm not sure that the marketing data bears out your assertion that "tube amps are still selling like hot cakes." Nor have modellers been through a "craze" that's declined. Most marketing data is pretty clear that modeling amps of all kinds dominate the amp market and that modelers are still selling at an ever-increasing pace.

That aside, "If you want the sound of a 6505 and little else, it's usually easier to just get a 6505" is absolutely correct.

But if any kind of versatility is worthwhile to you, a modeler is probably where you'll want to be.

TheQuailman's personal modus operandi with modelers, however, is not where live performers want (or need) to be -- "having to navigate through a couple menus to edit my sound" doesn't suit live performers. And most don't. It *would* be tedious. That's why user presets are available on almost every modeler.

I can organize an entire setlist on the computer, download it to the channels and banks on the modeler, and make changes with the foot switching.

I can tell you it's FAR more complicated to run through menus on something like a Korg Kronos keyboard, so keyboard players have long since learned to organize their sounds into presets and set lists. Playing for an entire musical production (for example) every night would be impossible without them.

So it's not JUST versatility that's improved with a modeler, but live performance as well.


i do think that selling data does bear out that tube amps are still selling very well once you get past the very bottom of the market. on the other hand if you were to remove amps under $300 i'd be willing to bet that modellers would take a huge plunge in overall sales. modellers rule the lower end (and rightfully so as the bang for the buck is very high). once you get past that i'd be pretty shocked if tube amps didn't still have a slight edge.

OP Kemperer makes excellent modellers but the real ? is do you really need that. if you are talking about sitting at home then something like a Peavey VIP series amp will in most cases do the trick for casual playing.
#33
Exactly. Beginner amps hardly matter in the great scheme of things. Do you care what a beginner uses? I sure as hell don't. If you start counting those then it's down the rabbit hole you've gone.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#34
FWIW I owned a Kemper. It sounded fantastic, very true to the amps it profiled. I, like TheQuailman, did not need the versatility of the Kemper, and the novelty of it wore off very quickly. I am happy with a couple decent amps to get all my sounds.

It definitely was a powerful tool, and one that is great for someone that is going to be doing lots of recording or needs tons of amps to play with. I will reinforce what's been stated though: if you don't need that, it's a bit excessive. Even as good as the Kemper was, it still didn't sound or feel quite the same in the room with the amps it profiled, no matter how I ran it. It sounded good, but if all I want is the real deal, then why bother with anything else?
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#35
Quote by dementiacaptain
I am happy with a couple decent amps to get all my sounds.

well a couple of decent amps might be more expensive then the kemper i guess
#36
Rm100
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#37
Quote by slayer87lp
well a couple of decent amps might be more expensive then the kemper i guess


Not used. And besides, if you intend to play it out loud there are additional costs related to the Kemper as well. I mean, do what you think is best, I'm just giving you my experience. Some people loving having every sound imaginable at their fingertips. If that's you, get it. If you just want YOUR sound and that's it, then save some cash, find an amp you like, and go with it.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#38
Quote by dementiacaptain
If you just want YOUR sound and that's it, then save some cash, find an amp you like, and go with it.

Thanks alot dude
#39
Quote by dspellman
I'm not sure that the marketing data bears out your assertion that "tube amps are still selling like hot cakes." Nor have modellers been through a "craze" that's declined. Most marketing data is pretty clear that modeling amps of all kinds dominate the amp market and that modelers are still selling at an ever-increasing pace.

What I was alluding to were the high hopes people had in the past about modellers - around the time the first Flextone appeared, any given guitar mag would give you the impression that tube amps might soon be a thing of the past. No need to worry about power tubes! No need to lug around heavy, archaic technology!
I'd say it was a craze, and certainly it has died down since then. People were misty-eyed, myself included.
It just didn't come true - the Flextone (and many others) could do a lot of things, but if all you wanted was a Plexi tone, a Plexi was still better, if you needed a Twin kind of clean, a Twin was still the way to go.
Modellers are immensely useful to some, particularly top-40 type bands. I also think every studio should have an Avid Eleven and the Rack version of the Bass POD (forgot the exact name, don't think they make it anymore).
Furthermore, the cheap beginner-level modelers (which would probably be the ones with the highest sales numbers) are great pieces of kit to start playing on.

But what do I see most of the time on stage? Ye olde tube amp on a 4x12.
Because most guitarists don't need all that versatility - two or three sounds that work for whatever band they're in do fine for most. A super versatile setup simply doesn't provide much of an advantage for these people.

Seeing the amps on stage all the time as well as manufacturers still coming up with new amps (however derivative the circuits), suggests the market for tube-amps is still big, and I'm not quite ready to attribute that to people being just nostalgic or tube-snobs just yet.

Quote by dspellman
modellers in live situations

I've spent plenty of time creating patches at home only to find out they needed readjusting at rehearsal and on stage. Even with practice, I found it very difficult to create sounds off-stage that would sound the way I liked on-stage. Tweaking during the sound-check is much easier with analog equipment than with a modeller, particularly when the sound guy is starting to get antsy because the whole operation is running late (as it always is).
Simple setups are preferable to complex setups if you don't need the extra features.
Keyboarders typically need a lot of sounds, but a guy just playing metal on his guitar might not. Also old analog synths can be a major pain to work with, no comparison to any guitar amp I've ever come across.
Last edited by TheQuailman at Dec 26, 2015,
#40
Quote by dementiacaptain
FWIW I owned a Kemper. It sounded fantastic, very true to the amps it profiled. I, like TheQuailman, did not need the versatility of the Kemper, and the novelty of it wore off very quickly. I am happy with a couple decent amps to get all my sounds.

It definitely was a powerful tool, and one that is great for someone that is going to be doing lots of recording or needs tons of amps to play with. I will reinforce what's been stated though: if you don't need that, it's a bit excessive. Even as good as the Kemper was, it still didn't sound or feel quite the same in the room with the amps it profiled, no matter how I ran it. It sounded good, but if all I want is the real deal, then why bother with anything else?


This is really true. It doesn't sound and feel the same as the original amp does, but it sounds good. Why? Because an important part of the sound the Kemper produces is the microphone that was used for the profile. A Marshall JCM800 profile done with an SM57 will sound a lot different to a profile done with a ribbon mic. I don't really care for that as long as it sounds good and I get the sound I want, but if it has to replace the amplifier you've played for years, it won't be the same.

If you're interested in the Kemper, I'd make sure you play one first if you can and preferably in the kind of set-up you'll be running, wether that's through monitors like explained before or through a poweramp (there's a version with built-in poweramp, but you can use an external poweramp as well) and cabinet.
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