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#2
very chill, thanks
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#4
wrong notes that sound cool at least
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#6
yeah jazz is cool
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#8
no said hail

i just said it

so someone said it and it was me and i am hail

duh lol
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#9
Shostakovich was awesome! I took a class on him, and we went through how he would insert doubles entendres. Cause Communism sucked.
#10
Thanks for sharing. I would never have seen this otherwise - I loved it.

"Chill" isn't an adjective that springs to mind when listening to this though. This thing is wrought with tension (in the best possible way).
Si
#11
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Right? It's just E minor with a bunch of wrong notes.
Right.
#12
I kind of hear the beginning of it in G...
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#14
I don't know. It's kind of a Gm6 chord. Maybe it's my speakers, but I don't really hear the low E's the cello plays that strongly. The G comes out more strongly. Maybe that's why.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#15
Quote by 20Tigers

"Chill" isn't an adjective that springs to mind when listening to this though. This thing is wrought with tension (in the best possible way).


+1

I prefer the gadfly
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#16
We had a week-long Shostakovich festival down my way last month. It was exhausting.
#17
That Shostakovich piece is pretty cool. Locrian really is an underrated scale (in that it's not used enough for melodies and almost never harmonized). I'd like to know more pieces/songs in Locrian. The only other one I can think of is "Army of Me" by Bjork (at least the bassline is said to be in Locrian).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BCz3q_Eat8
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

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#18
Cool piece, JRF. Very interesting.

Quote by RonaldPoe
The only other one I can think of is "Army of Me" by Bjork (at least the bassline is said to be in Locrian).


1. I don't think that the bassline could be in Locrian when the rest of the song isn't. Just saying.

2. Most sources I see say that it's phrygian. I'm too lazy to anazlyze it atm to make sure.
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*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#19
^This. That's one of those faux music theory topics. This is in no way Locrian.

JRF's post actually is though, and is a true example of the Locrian mode in action, a rare occurrence. (at least for the non-classically inclined)
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

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#20
Hi Jet, haven't seen you in a while.

I agree with Ronald on the point that it would be interesting to hear more songs in Locrian. It's a fascinating topic, even though I probably will never learn how to do it myself
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Theory: Not rules, just tools.

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*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#22
Me too

I just didn't want to get all absolute on them.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#23
@RP: That Bjork thing is in Bb minor in the verses and C minor in the chorus, with a chromatic descending D-Db-C (rest, quarter notes) in a synth instrument.

Bassline: Bb-C-Bb-Ab-Gb-Bb-C throughout, 16th notes until the final note (8th note C).
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#24
Cool someone finally found a Locrian piece (well done JRF!).
Now can someone please be so kind as to explain just how it's actually in Locrian...

Allow me explain myself first?:
I mean I can see how the top line is Locrian, but then at the end of the second line, there's like this B minor thing happening (see GREY and RED circles), in particular the piece lands heavily on the B note which makes for a perfect 5th in the scale? and the F & G notes in the Middle (Alto?) Clef feel like they make a G7 (again suggesting the B note?).

Are they just accidentals? or outside notes? (top stave only) as the general theme remains in Locrian?
It's just that B minor thing... ie: the GREY and RED circled line (in particular the B note being on such a strong beat) suggests it's more than just a passing note like the line inside the GREY circle?

Also (save for the fact that it's just a coloured phrase) but what's up with the line inside the GREEN circle? (like some kinda Eaug / Fmaj7 / F#m7, embellishment thing with a return to the original scale? ie: C-D-E).

FYI: and yes I know the notes I've Tabbed for the fretboard aren't exactly the notes on the score (or are they?) but perhaps she's playing her own version (which are the notes I've Tabbed) because I've played both ways and I guess there's argument for either sounding okay???

Also (not on the score) there seems to be a bit of a B diminished theme going on in places? B Flat Diminished I could handle but... well there's that B note hanging around again...

So what's really going on?
My immediate guess is E Locrian is the general theme, with Embellishments or something? (not discarding borrowing from parallel scales?)... but which (if any) and how?

Not looking for detailed response per se, just someone to shed a little light perhaps... that's all. Thanks!

(sorry my wording probably sucked but hey?)

( :edits: )

Last edited by tonibet72 at Jan 18, 2016,
#25
^ Correction:


e|-19----------------------|
B|----20-------------------|
G|-------21----------------|
D|----------22-18----------|
A|----------------20-------|
E|-------------------20-22-|


If you look at that part in reverse, you get the notes F-Ab-C-E-G-B; Fmmaj11; I think this is what the four measures before rehearsal mark 17 outline overall. Chromatic neighbors are a thing too, and I think I'd analyze the C#'s as such.

Keep in mind that for it to be modal, it's not going to be functional tonal harmony. (Too bad :') )
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Jan 18, 2016,
#26
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
This Shosti is the only piece I'm aware of that's actually Locrian.
I preferred your earlier interpretation of "E minor with a bunch of wrong notes". (Reading "chromatics" for "wrong notes", of course.)

Like tonibet72, I'd like to know what makes this specifically Locrian (beyond the first 10 bars or so anyway), and not some kind of "E minor with chromatics".
Last edited by jongtr at Jan 18, 2016,
#27
Quote by NeoMvsEu
^ Correction:


e|-19----------------------|
B|----20-------------------|
G|-------21----------------|
D|----------22-18----------|
A|----------------20----23-|
E|-------------------20----|


If you look at that part in reverse, you get the notes F-Ab-C-E-G-B; Fmmaj11; I think this is what the four measures before rehearsal mark 17 outline overall. Chromatic neighbors are a thing too, and I think I'd analyze the C#'s as such.

Keep in mind that for it to be modal, it's not going to be functional tonal harmony. (Too bad :') )
Well Correction: Correction!!
Like I said ...I was tabbing off what *she* was playing in *her* performance!

...but sure CST Vs Modal (accidentals considered)... but that still leaves that wretched B note slash strong beat slash Bmin slash G7 slash Bdim thingys?

I think Jongtr actually asked the question more concisely? so I might just see what happens there? but thanks anyway!
#28
Wow did I really put 23 on A at the end? That should be 22 on low E. I was tabbing from both performance and sheet music :P
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#29
Jong and Toni:

The short answer is that we have nothing here that even resembles a functional chord progression. The harmonies here to not have any diatonic function but exist for voice leading and color. That's modal.

I talk about this a bit (understatement of the night) in my mega mode sticky thread.

CST doesn't have anything to do with this.

I should point out that chromatically altering a melody does not destroy modality. It's the harmonies in play here and their interaction that makes that distinction. You can harmonize tonal melodies modally and vice versa.

Also, alot of the chords are simultaneities. There's no point in naming them; it tells us nothing about the behavior. Shostakovich wasn't sitting there trying to name all these harmonies with tertian nomenclature.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#30


You’d have to be very disagreeable to not agree that the sections in red brackets are very clearly in E Locrian. The melody is hammering away on E and Bb and the accompaniment is hammering away on E, F and G. Both contain the tonic, the melody is highlighting the b5 and the accompaniment is highlighting the b2. These are the two most characteristic notes of the Locrian mode. To further suggest a tonic on E the other note in the accompaniment is a G, or the third, and when looking at an interval of a third the bottom note is usually the root (in this case E).

This only leaves us with six measures of this page to try and explain. I'd agree that these aren't in E Locrian anymore. That said, we can easily explain the C# away as a chromatic neighbour (which, by the way, I'd argue we can't do with the Bb's or F naturals earlier) and since that figure is pretty obviously sequencing off of the main melodic motive we can lump that in with the E Locrian section. That really knocks us down to just four measures that we're not sure about. The C-D at the end of measure 16 is an anacrusis (pick-up) to the next phrase (and fits in E Locrian) so we can ignore that.

We're really just looking at the B natural and that arpeggiation. I can't say for sure what scale or mode is in action here. The B natural in such a strong position obviously means we're no longer in E Locrian, which is further confirmed by an Ab in the next measure. So, as Neo said, we essentially have an FminMaj11 or something along those lines. This is really just turning the phrase around though isn't it? Like it's obviously not a dominant function but it kind of rings like one. It gives us a reprieve from the prevailing harmony while leading us back to it.

As for why call this Locrian and not minor with a bunch of accidentals it's because of intent and execution. There's often one without the other. For example, often guitarists are like "yaaa Locrian I'm so metal ololol" but they've very clearly failed to create any convincing tonal center that would suggest the Locrian mode. On the flip side you might see a minor piece that uses the b5 and b2 as accidentals (maybe decorative chromatics like passing or neighbour or even appogiaturas) that would shade Locrian but there wouldn't be the intent on the part of the composer to create something in the Locrian mode. Those notes are just functioning as chromatic colour in an otherwise minor mode piece.

Here we have both though. The execution is obviously there. The notes say E Locrian and the tonic says E Locrian. As for intent, there's nothing to suggest that the F naturals and Bb's are accidentals that aren't part of the primary pitch material. It's very clear that Shostakovich was intending to use a diatonic scale with one flat that had its tonic on E. That means Locrian.

To say it's minor with accidentals obscures the nature of the piece more than it makes it clear, so at that point it's not a very useful analysis anymore.
#31
For those who read my post about the short answer:

^^^There's the long answer. +1.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#33
Well in that case:

Berio and chill?
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#34
you guys are gross
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Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


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You win. I'm done here.
#36
Finally got around to listening to it. That was really chill. I'm pretty sure Shosti wasn't like "Я собираюсь написать это в locrian" though.
#37
You Three:

okay thanks for that! Yes I didn't suspect any *functioning* progression but one never really knows? ...sequencing! yeah someone pointed such a thing out in another thread gone by so I'll buy that too lol. Interesting points about the B natural and the arpeggio being used to "turn a phrase around" (although I'm sure there's a bit more to it - ie: ringing like a dominant function etc - but I'll buy that also). and yeah I agree, few minor attempts, trying to pass off as Locrian eventually tell quite a different tale, not buying into that...

(just like I ain't buying into the Dow Jones... watch the Dead Cat begin to b0uNce...!!! )

Quote by jazz_rock_feel
It's very clear that Shostakovich was intending to use a diatonic scale with one flat that had its tonic on E. That means Locrian.


Thanks chaps!! ...and chapette!
#38
Quote by GoldenGuitar
Finally got around to listening to it. That was really chill. I'm pretty sure Shosti wasn't like "Я собираюсь написать это в locrian" though.


this is why you're my favorite
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Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


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You win. I'm done here.
#39
Quote by Jet Penguin
Jong and Toni:

The short answer is that we have nothing here that even resembles a functional chord progression. The harmonies here to not have any diatonic function but exist for voice leading and color. That's modal.

I talk about this a bit (understatement of the night) in my mega mode sticky thread.

CST doesn't have anything to do with this.

I should point out that chromatically altering a melody does not destroy modality. It's the harmonies in play here and their interaction that makes that distinction. You can harmonize tonal melodies modally and vice versa.

Also, alot of the chords are simultaneities. There's no point in naming them; it tells us nothing about the behavior. Shostakovich wasn't sitting there trying to name all these harmonies with tertian nomenclature.
Understood, and thanks. (and jrf's extensive explanation clarifies further )
#40
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
[snip pic]
You’d have to be very disagreeable to not agree that the sections in red brackets are very clearly in E Locrian. The melody is hammering away on E and Bb and the accompaniment is hammering away on E, F and G. Both contain the tonic, the melody is highlighting the b5 and the accompaniment is highlighting the b2. These are the two most characteristic notes of the Locrian mode. To further suggest a tonic on E the other note in the accompaniment is a G, or the third, and when looking at an interval of a third the bottom note is usually the root (in this case E).

This only leaves us with six measures of this page to try and explain. I'd agree that these aren't in E Locrian anymore. That said, we can easily explain the C# away as a chromatic neighbour (which, by the way, I'd argue we can't do with the Bb's or F naturals earlier) and since that figure is pretty obviously sequencing off of the main melodic motive we can lump that in with the E Locrian section. That really knocks us down to just four measures that we're not sure about. The C-D at the end of measure 16 is an anacrusis (pick-up) to the next phrase (and fits in E Locrian) so we can ignore that.

We're really just looking at the B natural and that arpeggiation. I can't say for sure what scale or mode is in action here. The B natural in such a strong position obviously means we're no longer in E Locrian, which is further confirmed by an Ab in the next measure. So, as Neo said, we essentially have an FminMaj11 or something along those lines. This is really just turning the phrase around though isn't it? Like it's obviously not a dominant function but it kind of rings like one. It gives us a reprieve from the prevailing harmony while leading us back to it.
Thanks - all clear! (Kind of what I was guessing, just needed that extra explanation of the chromatic sections.)
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