#1
I'm new to tube amps completely, im purchasing a Randall RD50 pretty soon here and wondering what cab to pair with it. I play metal/death metal stuff(think of lamb of god/parkway kinda tones) now like i said im new to tube amps i did alot of research before finding the rd50 however im pretty clueless on cabs. I've been looking at the Randall RG 212 cab http://www.zzounds.com/item--RANRG212?siid=124378 (i play at bedroom levels in an apartment 212 is enough). How is this cab and what are some other cab recommendations that might pair well with the tone im looking for and the amp im getting. Thank you!
#2
The size of the cab won't affect volume as much as you think. I'd say save a bit more so you could get a quality cab with quality speakers. You could try something like this, though http://www.ampfactory.com/24s/
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#3
We definitely need your budget and location to offer helpful insight. But I agree with baddie, it'd be better to save for a good cab. A lot of people don't realize how big of a deal the cab is and how much it affects your tone. A great amp will sound bad through a bad cab.
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#4
not volume in decibels, but it will affect perceived volume and prescence, bass response and "punch".

its the nebulus "pushing more air" effect of having more speakers and a bigger enclosure.


but in terms of volume in measurable, decibels (DB), then yes speakers matter far more. specifically, SPL sensitivity rating which is - given 1 watt of input power, the speaker will put out "X" decibels, and they increase exponetntially with input wattage.

so, s speaker that is 98 SPL (pretty standard).

wattage
1 = 98
2 = 103
4 = 106
8 = 109
16 = 112
32 = 115
64 = 118
128 watts = 121 decibels

at a speaker like the wizard which is 103

1 watt = 103
2 = 106
4 = 109
8 = 112
16 = 115
32 = 118
64 = 121
128 watts = 124 decibels

that doenst sound like much, but that basically means a speaker can matter far more than amp wattage, or a 50 watt amp with 103 SPL speakers could potentially be far louder or as loud as a much higher wattage 100 watt amp with lesser SPL speakers.

generally a doubling of wattage will give a perceived decibel increase of 3. 3 decibels is a LOT then! speakers can have quite a dramatic effect.

on top of that, your rig and freqency tuning play a large role. ie - not getting lost in the mix and cutting through. all of these things affect the ability to be heard.

point is - most people think wattage = loudness and that is wrong. wattage is about tone, response, and "power" in the sense of driving heavy bass, punch, articulation, or using a clean power section versus a driven one, compression, etc.

speakers are one of the most important aspects when considering volume and probably the most overlooked!!!
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
#5
What's your budget?

For a speaker suggestion I'd start with a Celestion Vintage 30 (V30) or a clone of it.

Can you afford a used Mesa Boogie Rectifier 212 cabinet?

If you want more emphasis on the bottom end then a Celestion G12-K100 speaker may be the ticket or a 212 with one of each.
Guitars:
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#6
Grab a 2x12 with Celestion V30's. Check out Avatar. Their Hellatones are broken in V30's so a bit of added instant gratification there.
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Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


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#8
Here's a hidden gem ($300) that looks like it has character already - http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/Carvin/Legacy-2x12-Guitar-Cabinet.gc

Carvin Legacy cabinets came with V30s and are typically inexpensive.

Some older Crate Blue Voodoo cabinets also had V30s and are inexpensive now. Guitar Center has some 412s for $199.99.

Call the store and have someone confirm the speakers though.
Guitars:
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#9
Quote by ikey_

so, s speaker that is 98 SPL (pretty standard).

wattage
1 = 98
2 = 103
4 = 106


Sorry -- basic math issue. Adding 3 dB to 98 would give you 101 dB, not 103.

The difference between the speakers will remain 5 dB across the board.

Your point is correct, that a more efficient speaker will give you more volume with the same wattage input.

There's more at work, here, of course. Sensitivity ratings might need to be scrutinized a bit, since some are done at a single frequency (often 1000Hz), others done at the full range of the speaker. And then, of course, manufacturers (well, their marketing departments) lie.

Here, for example, are the conditions under which Eminence speaker sensitivity is tested:

The average output across the usable frequency range when applying 1W/1m into the
nominal impedance. i.e: 2.83V/8Ω, 4V/16Ω. Eminence response curves are measured
under the following conditions: All speakers are tested at 1W/1m using a variety of test
set-ups for the appropriate impedance | LMS using 0.25" supplied microphone (software
calibrated) mounted 1m from wall/baffle | 2 ft. x 2 ft. baffle is built into the wall with
the speaker mounted flush against a steel ring for minimum diffraction | Carver PM-120
amplifier | 2700 cu. ft. chamber with fiberglass on all six surfaces (three with custom-
made wedges).


A Celestion Rocket 50, at around 95 dB sensitivity (rounded up), is a dismal speaker volume-wise, but it's a frequently-seen speaker where a manufacturer wants to keep costs down. Power handling is rated at 50W. At full rated power, the speaker will produce around 112 dB. Its frequency range is a claimed (*ahem*) 85Hz - 5000Hz. The low E string on a six-string guitar produces an 82Hz frequency. The resonant frequency on this speaker is 90Hz.

An Eminence Delta Pro 12A, at close to 100 dB sensitivity (measured in the same manner as the Rocket), is putting out 117 dB at the maximum power handling of the Rocket 50, but is capable of handling up to 400W RMS* (800 "Music Program"). That would push things up to 126 dB. Its frequency range is 52hz to 4.5 Khz (52Hz is the G# below the low B on a 7-string) and its resonant frequency is 51Hz.

In most cases, for ordinary guitar playing, cabinets don't matter much. A Vintage30, for example, will sound slightly different in an open back cabinet, a smallish closed back cabinet, or a largish closed back cabinet.

But the Delta Pro 12A is designed for sealed (closed back), vented (ported) or horn-loaded applications. In this case, the design of the cabinet matters if you're going to get the best out of the speaker. Specifically the internal airspace and the size of the ports need to be calculated (no big deal). Externally, the right cabinet will look a lot like most guitar cabs, but if you're a seven or eight-string player looking for bottom end, the difference is enormous.

*Regarding power: I have two 2x12s loaded with Deltas. I originally pushed them with a 50W/50W tube power amp. This provided each Delta with 25W of power. I eventually swapped that power amp for a Carvin DCM1540L (about 750W/750W). Available volume was, of course, higher, but the real benefit was to the bottom end, which requires far more power just to match the volume of notes played higher on the scale. While the pair of 212s was fully capable of putting a full Marshall stack on the trailer volume-wise, it was the difference in the clean reproduction of bottom end that opened most eyes.

One caution: the magnets on the Deltas are serious. Each speaker weighs over 16 lbs. The cabinets were NOT lightweight.
Last edited by dspellman at Jan 15, 2016,
#10
I have the opportunity to buy a avatar 2x12 cab with celestion g12h30's for 250$, good deal or nah?
#11
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
I have the opportunity to buy a avatar 2x12 cab with celestion g12h30's for 250$, good deal or nah?

It's not the worst, but it's not a steal, either. When I got my 4x12, he has just moved to Hawaii. He pretty much had to sell it.

Those are the situations you want to look for.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#12
key slip or mental lapse. you get the picture.

helped prove my point for me - speakers make a huge difference.

____

@ 250 - considering the list price for both those speakers new is like 250-300, yeah i say its a good deal.

weight that against what a new cab would cost you from avatar WITH your CHOICE of speakers. will you pay for for having the choice?

if you are given a choice of speaker (like avatar), do some research and figure out what speaker may be best for you. perhaps one combo is better than another.

its hard to go wrong with v30s, or what i have, a classic combo is a v30 and a g12H30. (well, i have the WGS clones of those celestions, but the sound will be similar).
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
Last edited by ikey_ at Jan 16, 2016,
#13
Quote by ikey_
key slip or mental lapse. you get the picture.

helped prove my point for me - speakers make a huge difference.



Agreed.
#14
Like others have mentioned, I'd look for something with a Celestion V30, or a WGS vetern 30 (its a clone of the V30).

As for size, I find a 212 to be the most practical. I have a 112, 212, and 412. The 112 is nice, because its really easy to lug around. The 212 isn't that much more of a hassle to move, and sounds quite a bit fuller with the extra speaker. The 412 is really nice for my louder heads, but is a complete PITA to move. But it looks SICK on stage
Guitars:
PRS Custom 24
Gibson Les Paul 60's Tribute
85' MIJ Strat
97' Snakepit Les Paul
LP Traditional 1960 Zebra
MIJ Tele
MIA Strat

Amps:
Silver Jubilee 2525
Peavey Ultra 112
Jet City JCA50H
66' Bassman
Pink Paisley Princeton RV
74' Vibro Champ
#15
Im currently looking for a 2x12 with wgs vet 30s they sound awesome, just cant find a used or new one for under 300, any help boys?
#16
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
Im currently looking for a 2x12 with wgs vet 30s they sound awesome, just cant find a used or new one for under 300, any help boys?



Where are you located?
Guitars:
PRS Custom 24
Gibson Les Paul 60's Tribute
85' MIJ Strat
97' Snakepit Les Paul
LP Traditional 1960 Zebra
MIJ Tele
MIA Strat

Amps:
Silver Jubilee 2525
Peavey Ultra 112
Jet City JCA50H
66' Bassman
Pink Paisley Princeton RV
74' Vibro Champ
#18
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
Sacramento California


You need a road trip.

Point your car south. Stop when you get to Carvin (there's a factory store) and take a listen to the standard 212V Cabinet with GT12s. $249. A pair of V30s instead will cost you $90 extra, brand new. http://www.carvinaudio.com/products/212v

If that doesn't tickle your fancy, you should be able to find something used in the LA area, on Craigslist, eBay, at one of the seven or eight GCs in the area, at one of the Sam Ashes, at Truetone, at Wild West, at McCabes, etc., etc.

If you *can't* find something you like, I'll buy the pancakes at the Griddle Cafe on Sunset.
#19
you can also have the option of closed back or open back on the Carvin cabs , I have 2 212V and and 1 212H , 1x12 with V30 , all loaded with Carvin GT , Celestion V30's and Eminance swamp thangs , nice cabs for the money
#20
I can't road trip haha, however that carvin cab looks pretty sweet, any idea how well the carvin brand speakers are? Also is it pretty easy to install speakers yourself? I'd be interested in buying this cab or the randall diavlo cab and just putting wgs vet 30s or v30s in them if it were pretty easy.
#21
WGS may be hard to find used, small company, and most people who own em, love em and wont sell em!!!
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
#22
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
I can't road trip haha, however that carvin cab looks pretty sweet, any idea how well the carvin brand speakers are? Also is it pretty easy to install speakers yourself? I'd be interested in buying this cab or the randall diavlo cab and just putting wgs vet 30s or v30s in them if it were pretty easy.



they sound pretty darn good , the V30's are ever so slightly better clean than the Carvin GT's but the GT's sound better dirty .... it least on the amps I own and I A & B them all the time .... if you tight on cash get the GT speakers , backs are removable so it's easy to change them out later
#23
I haven't tried any Carvin speakers, but a speaker swap is pretty straight forward.
Guitars:
PRS Custom 24
Gibson Les Paul 60's Tribute
85' MIJ Strat
97' Snakepit Les Paul
LP Traditional 1960 Zebra
MIJ Tele
MIA Strat

Amps:
Silver Jubilee 2525
Peavey Ultra 112
Jet City JCA50H
66' Bassman
Pink Paisley Princeton RV
74' Vibro Champ
#24
So i'm back and i've done alot of looking i just found this on craigslist, http://sacramento.craigslist.org/msd/5406209133.html it has 4 celestion vintage 30s mf and with the research i've done sounds to me like the vintage 30mf's are just revoiced celestion v30s that are more geared toward a metal sound but for the most part pretty similar. Sounds like a good deal to me how about you guys?

The other thing is the head im getting (the randall rd50) seems to have a weird interaction with a 16 ohm load which is what this marshall 4x12 is. I found this out through the randall manual for the rd50 http://www2.randallamplifiers.com/images/stories/manuals/RD50H-RD50C-RD112_MANUAL.pdf second page number 16 it notes that "RD50 will run with 16Ω load , but will not have %100 full output
volume/wattage" now does anyone know what that means in terms of tone and well being of both the speaker and the amp? keep in mind the volume isn't the biggest deal since i will be playing in my bedroom.

And lastly, overall do you guys think this set up will be a good sounding modern metal combination of the head and cabinet? Thanks for all the help guys!
#25
It's kind of technical, but the 16 ohm thing has to do with the way multitap transformers work. Different taps on the transformer use different amounts of windings on the transformer, which can have an effect on tone. I seriously doubt you would notice a difference. Higher resistance loads require more power to drive them. With a tube amp the difference is nominal, it is usually only brought up with SS amps (which will have different output ratings with different resistance loads).
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#27
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
So not a big deal, just kind of a normal thing i guess?


Yeah, its usually never brought up with tube amps. Tube amps generally sound much louder to the human ear for their wattage than SS amps and tube amps usually sound good when the power section starts overdriving, unlike SS amps which will start to sound bad as the power section starts to overdrive.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#28
Alright cool, i'm curious what's your opinion on the randall rd50 with the marshall with the celestion v30 mf's for a modern metal kinda death metal type tone. Im going to be using standard seymour duncan jb/59.
#29
Quote by bucketdeadsoi
Alright cool, i'm curious what's your opinion on the randall rd50 with the marshall with the celestion v30 mf's for a modern metal kinda death metal type tone. Im going to be using standard seymour duncan jb/59.


Sorry man, no experience, I was just jumping in on the technical stuff. Good luck.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#31
swapping speakers is like changing a light bulb but you need to make sure you are buying the right kind - ie - get the right ohms for your setup (just like buying the right wattage bulb).

aside from that, open cab, unscrew old, screw on new, and use the wiring connector and press it onto the + and - speaker leads. im assuming most good gear has the nice clean press on connectors on their wires. no soldering...that would SUCK.

most speakers will give you little foamy sealant things so the speaker sits tight and sealed against the cabinet wood. thats common sense stuff...really when you open teh box its the only logical thing those weird foamy things could be used for (look like the foamy comfort strips provided for the inside of your bike helmet). really, a monkey couldnt mess this up.
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)