#1
I think the idea of mastering music goes hand and hand with mastering the ability to fluently change keys. Nobody wants to listen to music made with only the notes that exist in one key signature.

Also, quick food for thought, why do we call keys by the corresponding Ionian major key? Aka C major rather than the key of no sharps or flats, or the key of A minor. It makes more sense, if anything, to call C major, A minor, because the 5 notes that dont exist in Am, Eb Gb Ab Bb Db, are opposite, tritones of the Am pentatonic scale, having nothing to do with C major. C major has no direct correlation to the key signature, no closer than F major (lydian) or any other mode... It doesnt seem logical to me. Plus Lydian makes more sense to hold the title of that key than Ionian, because Lydian is prettier and comes first when making altercations.

Anyway, besides that rant, which I am sure was very confusing and didnt make any sense... What are the best ways of thinking about naturally going from one key to another?
#3
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I think the idea of mastering music goes hand and hand with mastering the ability to fluently change keys. Nobody wants to listen to music made with only the notes that exist in one key signature.


I don't really agree with this to be honest. A lot of great music has been written and will be written in only one key. You don't even need every note in a key to make good music.

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Anyway, besides that rant, which I am sure was very confusing and didnt make any sense... What are the best ways of thinking about naturally going from one key to another?


Well, depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to do a cliche pop modulation its not really rocket science, you can just bump up the key a semitone and you have yourself a great "last chorus" key change.

If you're looking for something more complicated, like jazz, you just need to know a thing or two about how chords resolve to each other. Take a ii-V-I progression for an example: you can treat the V as a dominant chord for both the major key, and it's parallel minor, so you could just end the progression in i instead of I, and move onwards to iio and V again and look at that, you're in the parallel minor. Or, you could play ii-V-i, but treat the i as the ii of an another key. For example, Dm-G-Cm - now, don't think of the Cm as the i of Cm but the ii of Bb. So, you can go further: Dm-G-Cm-F-Bb, and now you're in Bb. And you can think like this with pretty much every chord: maj7 chords can work as the I and the IV of a key, dom7 chords work as the V and m7 chords work as the ii, iii or vi. So, every time you have a chord or any implied harmony in a song and you want to change keys, think: what if I treat this chord as a chord of a different function in a different key? Then all that's left is that you need to resolve it as expected in the new key signature.

This is a really basic approach but should give you some food for thought. There are a lot of people in this forum that are a lot more qualified to talk about this subject that I am. My explanation is a bit confusing and rambling, and I probably made a ton of mistakes, but I hope I'm not doing too much damage
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#5
I'd say the reason major is the default is because it's the default on everything else. Naming the intervals of a scale is based on the major scale 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7, etc. Major is the most consonant with the strongest resolutions. The modes are less stable harmonically and tend to sound more like the parallel major or minor scale with alterations. That #4 in Lydian is less stable and removes the use of the IV chord in resolutions.

As for key changes, as far as I know they can mostly be grouped into 3 main categories. The gear shift type, where you just immediately switch from one key to another - the pivot chord, where you use a chord that is found in both keys as an axis to change on - and what I think of as like a voiceleading approach, which I don't know a name for, but where you use a sequence of voiceled chords that wander away from the original key and work towards another key. I tend to use a lot of dominants, secondary dominants, and tritone substitutions to come up with a transitional passage.
#6
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I think the idea of mastering music goes hand and hand with mastering the ability to fluently change keys. Nobody wants to listen to music made with only the notes that exist in one key signature.

Also, quick food for thought, why do we call keys by the corresponding Ionian major key? Aka C major rather than the key of no sharps or flats, or the key of A minor. It makes more sense, if anything, to call C major, A minor, because the 5 notes that dont exist in Am, Eb Gb Ab Bb Db, are opposite, tritones of the Am pentatonic scale, having nothing to do with C major. C major has no direct correlation to the key signature, no closer than F major (lydian) or any other mode... It doesnt seem logical to me. Plus Lydian makes more sense to hold the title of that key than Ionian, because Lydian is prettier and comes first when making altercations.

Anyway, besides that rant, which I am sure was very confusing and didnt make any sense... What are the best ways of thinking about naturally going from one key to another?
Lay off the weed bro!

Modulation is pretty awesome and a key change can definitely add depth and beauty to a piece of music. But as has been pointed out some songs are made that not only stay in one key but stay on one chord!! There are other ways to introduce interest and excitement to a piece of music.

Further the stuff about the naming of keys is a bit weird to speak to because I'm not sure I quite understand what you're talking about. However, you seem to be saying that the five missing notes are somehow related to the A minor pentatonic scale but no relation to C major. This was weird because C major pentatonic and A minor pentatonic share the same five notes.

There is a case for Lydian being the "true major mode". But the fact is that sometimes there are competing cases and the historic case, the cultural significance of the major scale the presence of the leading tone the sub dominant the dominant and the mediant are all powerful factors. Lydian has a triton against the root which is a destabilizing feature and the Ionian is the most stable and harmonically powerful mode which is why historically it was preferred and used as the bases for the last three hundred or more years of western music.

All that rambline aside there are essentially two ways to change keys.

Direct modulation and pivot modulation.

Direct modulation is when you go from one key and simply jump straight into the next key at the start of a section. Pivot modulation is when you use a chord or chords common to both keys as a turning point to ease into the new key.

When changing keys it also helps to consider the distance between two keys. Keys that have more note in common will be a much more subtle shift than keys that share less diatonic notes.

So for example, C major and A minor both share the same seven diatonic notes. They are the most closely related keys. Modulating between these two keys is sometimes not even noticed and very subtle indeed.

G major (or E minor) has one sharp (F#) it is a closely related key to C major (or A minor) as the two keys share six out of seven diatonic notes so the tonal material you are using is much the same even if you are using that material in a different hierarchical structure. Modulating between these two keys will sound a more distinct than between C major and A minor but will still have enough in common to feel relatively smooth and subtle.

However, the key B major has only two notes in common with C major and modulating between these two keys will be a much more drastic and jarring sound. Not that that's a bad thing - it's just a different thing and the difference between the two keys is more distant.

The other obvious aspect of modulation is the change in tonic. Modulating to the V and modulating to the IV are both modulations of a relatively short distance (they both only have one note difference from the tonic I key). But in contrast with the starting key they both provide slightly different feels to them.

Sometimes the tonic will stay the same and you will modulate between parallel modes.

There are a lot of things to think about with modulation but it should usually be pretty natural sounding. Have a listen to some songs that you like and analyse the chords. Think about how the modulation took place. Was it direct or did they use pivot chords? Was it to a closely related key? etc etc Think about where in the song they modulated, think about the relationship between the tonic chords. etc etc

Often a key change will use a V-I move as it is a strong way to establish a tonic. A chain of fifths can be used to modulate to pretty much any key.

Often when modulating to IV the tonic is played as a pivot chord and then made into a dom7 chord and resolved to the IV which becomes the tonic of the new key.

Direct modulation is very common at the end of pop songs when they repeat the chorus several times. A direct modulation up a semitone or up a whole tone gives the whole thing a lift and stops it from getting stale. This is such a common technique it has been called a "truck drivers gear change" because sometimes truck drivers don't use their clutch and shove their gear up one - sometimes it's just shortened to a "gear change". Michael Jackson and Westlife were two acts that used this technique a lot with great success. It's an easy trick that has a huge effect. As such it is often frowned upon as cheap - other's though take the approach that "hey if it works???"

While not by any means a logical and well thought out discussion of modulation I've thrown down the first ideas that come to mind.

Best of luck.
Si
#7
peppers, I saw words related to modes, so must disagree with you.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#8
I like plenty of music that sticks to just one key. That being said switching key is a good skill also, and there are lots of ways to do it.

The naming convention for a key basing it off the tonic chord makes sense to me.

For me, Major and Minor are the two common major and minor ones. Any other mode, I think is more sensible to call it by the roman numeral the tonic would have in Ionian.

So, dorian would be ii mode. And locrian would be vii^o mode. But I have a whole thing where I never change the roman numeral values for different modes.

I don't see the advantage to what you were talking about, but then again, I don't really fully understand what it was you were saying either.
#9
Someday, when I have more free time, I will explain to OP everything that is incorrect in his OP.

Spoiler: All of it.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#12
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
because Lydian is prettier and comes first when making altercations.


No need to get violent. Everyone knows Lydian is pretty, though that's a strange reaction to an altercation.
#13
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I think the idea of mastering music goes hand and hand with mastering the ability to fluently change keys. Nobody wants to listen to music made with only the notes that exist in one key signature.


I'd argue the opposite. Mathcore and prog, genres which are defined, in part, by key changes, do not rank amongst the most popular music in the world.

Unless, of course, we have different definitions and understandings of what a key is, which is quite possible.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Last edited by AlanHB at Jan 27, 2016,
#14
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian

That is the order of modes I see modes in. It could also be the other way around, it doesn't matter a whole lot.

I must ask, major pentatonic scale? Is it not just the 1-3-4-5-7? Or are you talking about the minor pentatonic scale, aka the real pentatonic scale because it is the tritone of all the wrong notes, but the first inversion of the scale, which would be C D E G A?

I'm really just looking for examples of key changes that are clever. Like if I was in theory class and I had to analyze a song and find the key changes. What are some good examples? Maybe tricks you have done on your own. I'm just looking for ideas. I'm not saying the best music has to use all 12 notes exactly, but I think a song that fluently expresses more than the standard 7 notes in one key is gonna be more exciting than one that doesn't.
#16
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian

That is the order of modes I see modes in. It could also be the other way around, it doesn't matter a whole lot.


Oh yeah. How many of those do you reckon are keys and what impact does the order they go in have on this?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers at #33798707
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian

That is the order of modes I see modes in. It could also be the other way around, it doesn't matter a whole lot.

you'll need to clarify this quite a bit. what does "the order of modes" mean here, and why do you see it this way?
#18
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

I must ask, major pentatonic scale? Is it not just the 1-3-4-5-7? Or are you talking about the minor pentatonic scale, aka the real pentatonic scale because it is the tritone of all the wrong notes, but the first inversion of the scale, which would be C D E G A?

pentatonics (major and minor) don't have half steps hence mojor can't have a 7 which is a half step below the root. It also doesnt have a 4 which is a half step above the 3.

Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

C major pent = C D E G A
A minor pent = A C D E G

They are relative scales so your reasoning (putting aside any validity) holds for both.
Si
#20
EDIT: Regarding modulation. If I'm correct in assuming your username is an indication that you are dig the Beatles then see if you can get your hands on a book by Dominic Pedler called The Songwriting Secrets of the Beatles.

The Beatles pulled off some marvellous modulations. The book has a chapter dedicated solely to examples analysis and discussions on modulation in Beatles songs. It doesn't just cover modulation though. - I highly recommended this book. End EDIT

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian
That order has no logic to it.

Start with Lydian if you want. One justification for doing so is that if you start from the root note and go up in consecutive perfect fifths then transpose all the notes into one scale you get the Lydian mode...

C -> G -> D -> A -> E -> B -> F# = C D E F# G A B C = C Lydian.

The step pattern for that is W W W H W W H

Shifting the tonic down through the step pattern (scale) we get H W W W H W W (Phrygian) then W H W W W H W (Dorian)...

The order would be Lydian -> Phrygian -> Dorian -> Ionian -> Locrian -> Aeolian -> Mixolydian

If you shift the tonic p through the step pattern (scale) then it's Lydian -> Mixolyidan -> Aeolian -> Locrian -> Ionian -> Dorian -> Phrygian

Of course none of that is actually the reason.

Why is the Ionian the basis upon which we build "The Major Scale" and consequently forms the underlying foundation upon which most western music and western music theory is built?

Short answer It just is - accept it, move on.
Long answer... The pentatonic scales are actually the most organic scale. The pentatonic scale is actually built on a cycle of perfect fifths.

After the fundamental and the octave the most powerful note we have is the perfect fifth. That single relationship alone can not be overstated. That single relationship is something we recognized before we had scales or any music theory. Eventually mathematics and science came along and examined why but we won't go into that. The fact is that it is powerful and all you need to do is listen to recognize the strength of the relationship between these two notes. (It is undeniable - though I'm sure can try to argue the point if you really want but know it will be a losing argument. History and human nature would not be on your side).

if you take the perfect fifth and then build a perfect fifth on that and a perfect fifth on that...until you have five notes and transpose them into a single octave you have the MAJOR pentatonic scale (Not the minor pentatonic scale).

C -> G -> D -> A -> E
C is the fundamental or starting note upon which we built our scale using this method.

C D E G A = C major pentatonic.

Why stop there? Why not keep going to get seven, ten, or twelve notes?

The answer is that the scale wasn't "worked out" this way. It was an intuitive recognition of this relationship that gave us the pentatonic scale. We gravitated toward this collection of notes because it just sounded good to the human ear well before we had the means of working out why.

Part of this had to do with the fact that I mentioned in my last post that there were no half steps. Half steps provide tension and can become danger notes. It introduces more possibility of dissonance and consequently more difficulty for singers. So when people started singing they found the pentatonic scale as something that worked.

But those minor third leaps in the pentatonic were larger and we started to fill them in. We could fill them in in a number of different ways. One way would be to continue up in perfect fifths to get B and F# to give us a Lydian scale. So why was Ionian preferred over Lydian?

Well we have two minor thirds and filling it in we decided our options were either the major or minor seventh and the perfect or augmented fourth. We chose the major seventh and the perfect fourth because to most people's ear they formed stronger relationship with the root of the scale. -But how?

The leading tone was nice because it lead in to the root better than the b7. Approaching the root from a half step below provided a stonger sense o finality to a melody than approaching the root from a whole step below. So the major seventh was preferred. This fact can be attested to by the way in which the minor key uses the raised seventh to approach the tonic even though the natural minor scale has a minor six and minor seventh.

But that doesn't explain why Ionian and not Lydian. Lydian still uses a major seventh scale degree after all. Well the next gap to fill in is the fourth. The augmented fourth forms a triton against the root which is an unstable and difficult interval. Against the root this is not a note that stands out but it doesn't form a strong harmonious relationship with the root - quite the opposite. The perfect fourth however is the same distance below the root as the dominant is above the root. This creates a very strong relationship between the perfect fourth and the root or the perfect fourth and the octave.

So to most ears the perfect fourth was far preferred over a strongly dissonant interval.

This is a very loose and inaccurate summary of ideas that can be used to explain why the major scale. It is not historically accurate but the ideas presented are sound and justified by reason and analysis of the scales, notes, and preferences shown by the majority of western musical practitioners and theorists for centuries.

Alternate but related justifications can be made and in fact may actually represent the development of keys in a more relevant way.

We have our pentatonic scale upon which we were making melodies etc. We filled the minor thirds in and had some modes....

Then we started developing moving harmonies and functional tonal harmony. The perfect fifth above the root as recognized as having the most dominant relationship with the tonic. So we went DOWN a perfect fifth and surrounded our tonic on both sides with a perfect fifth above which we called the Dominant, and a perfect fifth below which we called the Sub-Dominant literally meaning "the Dominant Below". Harmonizing these three notes with perfect fifths and major thirds gives us the MAJOR SCALE:

Tonic = C E G,
Dominant = G B D
Sub Dominant = F A C
C E G; G B D; F A C remove double ups and put them in ascending order from C up to the octave and you get C D E F G A B C

Lydian does not allow for the same powerful tonal harmonies of the subdominant.

Why harmonize those three chords into major chords? Because of the harmonic power of the notes. The first three distinct pitches in the harmonic series are the Fundamental the octave the perfect fifth and the major third.
Harmonic series = 1 8 5 8 3 5...

So there are plenty of very strong reasons why NOT Lydian.

If you think it's a prettier mode then that's great. You may even find a lot of people that agree with you. But don't be arrogant about it and simply ignore the fact that practitioners of western music and western music theorists throughout history had a different view than you and settled upon the Ionian as the fundamental building block of western tonal music. There are actually strong and clear reasons for it if you take the time to listen objectively.

I acknowledge that we are quite far off point in regard to modulation but I thought I'd post this to give you a bit of background understanding.

There is a series that used to be on youtube called Howard Goodall's How Music Works. Some of this is covered in that and it is well worth checking out. He does a great job of explaining music with good examples and well thought out discussion. He's not the final word on all things music but it's a quality series and I think is a must see for anyone interested in music theory and music in general.
Si
#21
Tbf it's a cycle by diatonic fifths, however flawed the name
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Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
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you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#22
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Tbf it's a cycle by diatonic fifths, however flawed the name

What is a cycle of diatonic fifths?
Si
#23
F-B-E-A-D-G-C

Order of modes thing if staying with no accidentals

You could flesh this out into a circle of fifths progression, though I'm not sure how that would stay diatonic

or what the purpose of learning modal formulae like that would be
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#24
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I think the idea of mastering music goes hand and hand with mastering the ability to fluently change keys. Nobody wants to listen to music made with only the notes that exist in one key signature.

Also, quick food for thought, why do we call keys by the corresponding Ionian major key? Aka C major rather than the key of no sharps or flats, or the key of A minor. It makes more sense, if anything, to call C major, A minor, because the 5 notes that dont exist in Am, Eb Gb Ab Bb Db, are opposite, tritones of the Am pentatonic scale, having nothing to do with C major. C major has no direct correlation to the key signature, no closer than F major (lydian) or any other mode... It doesnt seem logical to me. Plus Lydian makes more sense to hold the title of that key than Ionian, because Lydian is prettier and comes first when making altercations.

Anyway, besides that rant, which I am sure was very confusing and didnt make any sense... What are the best ways of thinking about naturally going from one key to another?


I have no problem with music that stays in one key. In fact, I have a problem with uncalled for key changes. They make me feel queasy.

It doesn't make sense to call C major "A minor" because the resolution note is C, not A. As for the rest of that paragraph ... I think you're just trolling.

As for methods of key changing, they're well known and can easily be sourced.
#25
Oh my God...

Dude, you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Forget about everything you think you know about keys. And forget about modes. They have nothing to do with keys.

There are two keys, major and minor. Even though they have the same key signature, A minor is not the same as C major. They are different things.

The key is defined by the tonic. This is the note/chord that sounds like home. When we come back to tonic, it releases all tension. Even though A minor and C major have the same notes, they are pretty different. That's because they have different tonic. The tonic of A minor is A and the tonic of C major is C.

Forget about modulations if you don't understand what a key is. Stick with diatonic harmony first. You need to understand keys and diatonic harmony properly before you can understand modulations.


Also, there's plenty of music that stays in one key. Of course a modulation can make the song more interesting but it is definitely not always required.


Also, there is no "real pentatonic scale". Both major and minor pentatonic are "real" pentatonic scales. They are relative scales, ie have the same notes but a different root (scale root = basically the same as tonic in most cases but not always). C major and A minor pentatonic scales are the same notes - C D E G A. What makes them different is the fact that the root note of C pent is C and the root note of Am pent is A. Minor pentatonic is more common in blues but major pentatonic is used a lot in folk and country music.
Quote by AlanHB
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 27, 2016,
#26
Quote by cdgraves
No need to get violent. Everyone knows Lydian is pretty, though that's a strange reaction to an altercation.
#27
One would think hanging around a music theory forum full of jaded composers and musicians with university training in general, that one would pick up at least a little of what is discussed. But that doesn't seem like the case for TS.
#28
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian

That is the order of modes I see modes in. It could also be the other way around, it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Yeah, could be, doesn't matter at all, really. But then what does? Who cares?
At least you spelled them right...
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

I'm really just looking for examples of key changes that are clever.
OK, that's a reasonable request. Defining "clever" is debatable, but I guess you mean unusual or unexpected.
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

Like if I was in theory class and I had to analyze a song and find the key changes.
I think if you were in a theory class, and had to do that, you would have learned a whole lot of theory already which enabled you to do that. Doesn't seem like you have - or you wouldn't be throwing modal terms around at least.
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

What are some good examples? Maybe tricks you have done on your own. I'm just looking for ideas. I'm not saying the best music has to use all 12 notes exactly, but I think a song that fluently expresses more than the standard 7 notes in one key is gonna be more exciting than one that doesn't.
Matter of opinion. Lots of great music stays in one key. Changing key is sometimes a desperate way to stop a song getting boring - and making it cheesy instead.

Some reading you may find relevant, informative, enjoyable, or all three:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulation_(music)
therehttp://howmusicreallyworks.com/Pages_Chapter_6/6_12.html
http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/10-spectacular-key-changes-that-arent-totally-cheesy
#29
Quote by jongtr

I think if you were in a theory class, and had to do that, you would have learned a whole lot of theory already which enabled you to do that. Doesn't seem like you have - or you wouldn't be throwing modal terms around at least.


Last time we discussed this, I recall Pepper saying that he has studied theory for 8 years and everyone who's going to argue with him about theory is going to lose

I hope Pepper will read the posts in this thread through carefully and learn something, but I might be asking too much. It's a shame, since he has passion and skill, and he might have to potential to grow into a great musician. I think he should actually take a theory class, there's only so much you can learn through wikipedia.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#30
Quote by Kevätuhri
Last time we discussed this, I recall Pepper saying that he has studied theory for 8 years and everyone who's going to argue with him about theory is going to lose


But did he mean music theory or fluid flow dynamics or something?
#31
Quote by Kevätuhri
Last time we discussed this, I recall Pepper saying that he has studied theory for 8 years and everyone who's going to argue with him about theory is going to lose
Run away, run away!!
#32
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#33
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Lydian
Locrian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Dorian
Mixolydian
Ionian

That is the order of modes I see modes in. It could also be the other way around, it doesn't matter a whole lot.

I must ask, major pentatonic scale? Is it not just the 1-3-4-5-7? Or are you talking about the minor pentatonic scale, aka the real pentatonic scale because it is the tritone of all the wrong notes, but the first inversion of the scale, which would be C D E G A?

I'm really just looking for examples of key changes that are clever. Like if I was in theory class and I had to analyze a song and find the key changes. What are some good examples? Maybe tricks you have done on your own. I'm just looking for ideas. I'm not saying the best music has to use all 12 notes exactly, but I think a song that fluently expresses more than the standard 7 notes in one key is gonna be more exciting than one that doesn't.



You have not taken the time to understand how the naming conventions work, and why they are named that way. Everything is organized in a purposeful way. You appear really confused, and you're trying to reinvent the wheel without understanding anything properly. The way it is, is that way for a reason, and there have been lots of great musicians before you that could have honed it, and refined it. It's pretty smart the way it is. If you learn that, then you will see, and then you will be in a position to change how it is organized, for some specific purpose. You could name things in a bunch of different ways. We invent the meanings of our words, but some ways of organizing concepts are better than others.

You can easily use all 12 notes without leaving the key, and you can even use all 12 notes in a song if your progression is diatonic, i.e. uses strictly notes from the key.

The excitement of music, imo, doesn't come from whether or not you use out of key notes in any way shape or form. That's like saying a painting that uses more colors is more exciting. You could have a monochrome painting that's incredibly powerful also.

There is no "real" pentatonic scale. Pentatonic scale is a 5 note scale, that's it. There's a major and a minor, just like the major scale, which is named that way because of where the root is, or, if you prefer, the way the intervals are organized. Just like major scale and minor scale. It's the same sort of thing. They are relatives. They named it that way, because it is a wise way to organize things and name them. If you prefer to use the minor pent, ok. But there is no "real" pentatonic scale. Things just have a name. Everything is named in a consistent way which is convenient and constructed by design for a purpose. If you have a different way that you prefer, that's cool, I actually am a little that way myself, but you should take the time to actually understand everything first, and know exactly why you would name things differently. Otherwise, you will embark on this crazy journey, reorganizing everything, and then one day you'll understand, and realize how you did all of that for nothing, and that there was actually a good reason that it was the way it was. Then it will have taken you years to figure something out that other people already knew, and could have just told you.

You seem to have a different naming convention, and that might a good thing for you, it might be clever, but I don't see the purpose. That would be the important part. There is a purpose to the way things are named traditionally. Lots of great musicians have spent careers taking it to the next level.

As for changing keys, I don't think there really is such special things like you are looking for. If you want to learn about switching keys, then I would go with the basics that have been mentioned, and use that yourself to switch keys, if that's what you want to do. I really doubt you'd be able to impress any theory experts with a modulation, any more than you could impress them with a sweet melody. Music theory, for the most part, is actually pretty simple and basic. It's not quantum physics.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jan 27, 2016,
#34
Quote by NeoMvsEu
F-B-E-A-D-G-C

Order of modes thing if staying with no accidentals

You could flesh this out into a circle of fifths progression, though I'm not sure how that would stay diatonic

or what the purpose of learning modal formulae like that would be

Ooooh you're a smart cookie Neo So that's the flawed logic to his madness.

It could stay diatonic only if you start on Locrian...but of course it will never come full circle because the distance between Locrian and Lydian is always going to be a triton.
Si
#35
you can pivot off secondary dominants into a new key but i always found a lot of tension from using them as a pivot and not always a good thing to force.

changing keys in a song needs to flow right and in certain circumstances if forced won't sound right. we need to remember with theory that somethings should work but may not sound good haha.

as for keys everything is expressed as the major scale or a modification of the major scale so musicians of all instruments don't get confused and can play together and express music. at least thats what I'm lead to believe.

as for calling it another namei guess it could be anything else but you need a baseline (you know what i mean) and modes have strict rules when strictly speaking theory and loose rules when applied to music.

EI. guy 1 could play rhythm guitar in the key of C Minor while guy 2 plays lead in C dorion, in thoery.
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jan 27, 2016,