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#1
This may sound like a massive contradiction given I posted a thread about technology ruining music but if you take the time to read this you'll see why it's not.

As I have mentioned before; long before I ever picked up a guitar, I listened to dance/rave music and was quite successful as a dj and producer.

I often hear people slating electronic music whilst being ignorant to how it's actually made. I thought that I'd give a rundown of my own history/experience and why I think there can be just as craft and skill as in making 'real' music. I'll also attempt to draw the distinction between purposefully creating electronic music and using a computer to make a quick i.e. lazy backing track.

For clarity I am using 'electronic music' as a generic term for music created using synthesizers, samplers, etc. As opposed to guitars, drums etc.

Just like when metal was just metal (ie. not thrash, grind core, djent, etc.); the various genres of dance music were all basically just called rave. This was the music my friends and I were fanatical about but rather than idolising bands, we idolised the djs that would play our favourite tunes at parties, raves and on pirate radio. It was a real underground scene (most raves were illegal).

Long story short... I became a dj and this led me down a path were I didn't just want to play others tunes, I wanted to make my own!

The thing was I had no idea how to go about it so I had to research it. And in pre-internet days this literally meant brown nosing other djs/producers (most of the big names did both) to get into their studios and see what's what. This was a very close-knit but esoteric community were everyone knew each other and would often collaborate, share ideas, samples, equipment, etc.
Over time I learned this craft and started producing my own tunes and even released some under various aliases.

So how do you produce a song without any real instruments? (Bar a keyboard/synth)
Well it starts much in the same way as any other song. It may be a riff, a vocal or even just a concept and you build the track up in layers using samplers and sequencers (in the early days these were hardware as opposed to computer software)

Now creating a drum track using samples is obviously not as skillful as playing the drums. It does, however, take a long time to do it properly (I'm not talking about a basic 4/4 track) and the trend then was for something called amen breaks. This was essentially an old funk (yes lots of James Brown) beat, chopped up, speeded up and looped. You'd often layer several different drum loops over each other, add additional hits, effects, filters, etc. If you think of this as cheating, I should point out this process could take several days if not weeks to produce a 2 minute drum track and ensure that it was properly quantised and fitted the track. It also meant spending hours searching record shops for tracks with cool drum patterns to sample. The end result was not meant to replace a drummer per se. It was to create something new that a drummer couldn't actually play. (Case in point - Slipknot used these kind of drum loops despite Joey being one of the best drummers in the world). This type of beat laid the foundation for what would become jungle/drum and bass music (in the 160-170bpm range) and also hip hop which used the same loops but at half the speed. Computers made this process much easier but it can still be time consuming to do well (i.e. not just a very basic backing beat) and now you can just download ready made beats. I draw distinction between this and the method I described.

If you were lucky enough to know a vocalist you may have record the vocals in the traditional way but it was more common to sample vocals. This could involve simply laying the vocals (if you could get an accapella) over your track or just taking certain segments and pitching them up, rearranging them and adding effects to create something new. Sometimes you couldn't get 'clean' vocals so you'd have to find a way to incorporate the beat/music of the original into your track; either hidden in the background or as part of it. (Outer Space by The Prodigy is a brilliant example of this using a Max Romeo sample).

Again computers can now adjust and match pitch instantly and to any key you want. Back then it was a nightmare keeping everything in key! Vocoders and autotune were originally developed to help overcome this. Unfortunately they're now mostly used to produce shit pop music with people who look the part but can't actually sing!

The main 'instruments' could come in many forms. A lot of the organ/piano/synth lines you hear were just played on a keyboard! They may have been sped up, looped, etc. but I can assure you that a large majority of electronic musicans are very good keyboard players! Some are even classically trained! That's not to say that we didn't sample riffs, melodies, etc. In fact we'd often sample each others tracks. But here's the thing... We didn't sample jazz solos, guitar riffs and string sections because we were too lazy to learn how to play them! We did it because they sounded cool and we wanted to re-imagine them in an updated style and part of the craft was taking something that already exists and turning it into something new.

A lot of my early tracks sampled classical music. I didn't do this to pretend that I had I could play piano like Chopin. I did it to say, "hey look how cool mozart sounds in a modern genre"

Synths allowed you to create whole new 'instruments' that have there own signature voice and timber. You could also create basslines in low registers (sub bass) that would be impossible on a bass guitar.

Having gone through the whole process, layering all the elements; it may have taken several months to compile the final track and believe me mixing it all down was not easy. The final track may have sounded quite simple, infact a real band probably could have recorded it in under an hour. But that 4 minute track consumed your life for months - hardly an easy way to make music!

You then had to get an acetate dub plate cut if you wanted to play it in a club (plus a few extra to give to the other top djs if you wanted them to play it) if you had the money you might be able to afford to press a few hundred on vinyl or if you were really lucky singed to an underground record label; only to have it released as an anonymous white label. You almost always lost money but you didn't do it for fame or fortune; you did it because you had a passion for the music!

As time went on the scene became more commercialised and spread out into sub genres. Sampling fell out of fashion (I think largely due to record labels wanting to cash in on the trend and not wanting the headache of lawsuits and royalties). And as technology developed the process became cheaper and easier. Computers could mimic the old Akai sampler and you could now create complex drum loops from scratch. Synths and softsynths became more advanced and could replicate real instruments as well as the electronic sounds that they were known for.

Did this mean some producers tried to save a few quid rather than hire session musicians? Yes but very seldom did they manage to pull it off!

For a lot of electronic musicans, the facsimile to a real instrument is irrelevant. They are not trying to trick you into thinking it's a real violin, they are just using a synth that has a voice and sustain that they feel adds to the piece of music.

Trance music is a brilliant example of this (especially the stuff from the late 90s). It builds melodies, intertwining both electronic and traditional string sounds to create an epic sound, often with complexity and dynamic range of classical music. It's not supposed to sound like an orchestra, it's supposed to sound electronic. I would personally put Ferry Corsten on par with Mozart in terms of ability as a composer. Again I draw distinction between creating a complex and emotion piece of music in the electronic genre as opposed to someone laying down a generic 3 chord backing track for Justin Bieber to whinge over or those annoying novelty records that are literally made in 10 minutes (ie crazy frog, gangnam style, etc. ) but still sell millions.

If you've never heard of Ferry Corsten (or his many aliases) I recommend you listen to Goryella - Goryella, System F - Into the blue or his remix of addagio for strings)

The main issue with music created in this way is playing it live. Well it was never designed to be played live! It was designed for djs to play in clubs or for people to listen to at home, in their car, etc.
Were I feel the genre let itself down (although really it's the record companies fault!) is when you ended up with commercial songs and producers stood on tv or at festivals; pretending to do something on record decks or a laptop whilst the record plays in the background.
This is were I believe a lot of people get the impression that there is no skill involved or it is just fake. I can understand that but it's not a true reflection of the genre.
Some music is intended to be played live and some isn't.
I look at it in the same way a movie offers things a live play doesn't (and vice versa) some may have a preference but there's room for both.

It's just dawned on me that I've spent hours writing this on a forum were probably no one gives a shit! Lol
If anyone does find any of this interesting let me know and I'll continue with it. If not then I've just spent most of Saturday night talking bull shit which is what I do most weekends so no real loss! Lol
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#2
Quote by Matriani
It's just dawned on me that I've spent hours writing this on a forum were probably no one gives a shit!


It's true. I didn't even read it. Just scrolled down to see how long you actually wasted.
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#3
Okay. Not that much new information here but good for you for writing it I guess
Quote by Jet Penguin
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Quote by Hail
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#4
Matriani, I did find that very interesting. I have long been amazed by the amount of inventiveness put into electronic music (and the effort), even when with a lot of tunes it's clear that the producer had little to no clue about the workings of music. I can't help wondering how things might change again if they get access to a bit more easy to understand theory, and see what that may lead to (I can already imagine the stream of negative responses to this!) ...different progressions, voicings, rhythms ...

I saw Daft Punk documentary recently ... and yes, at the end of it, these guys were on a giant pedestal, apparently pushing a few buttons ... which made me thinks what's that all about. But the music was and is gret.

And there's an ad running on TV now, for Virgin broadband, showing a house party, with a dj playing an old Chaka Khan number, unchanged ... but the video shows a femal dj "scratching" the "record". This doesn't help the cause.

I've done a couple of experiments, collaborating with a guy on soundcloud that writes electronic stuff ... I "metallized" it. Good fun.

This one uses guitar as sound effects, as well as usual stuff.

https://soundcloud.com/jerry-kramskoy-1/the-girls-dangerous-ov-collab

This one is more rhythmic ... Greek music feel to it.

https://soundcloud.com/jerry-kramskoy-1/maximum-overdose-collab-with
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Mar 6, 2016,
#5
Gosh I post some utter shit on here at times! Even I can't be bothered to read all that and I wrote it! Boredom and too much coffee is all I can say

I did try to delete the thread but it won't let me
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#6
Quote by Matriani
Gosh I post some utter shit on here at times! Even I can't be bothered to read all that and I wrote it! Boredom and too much coffee is all I can say

I did try to delete the thread but it won't let me


You can press edit, there should be a "delete thread" option.

No need though. I think it was a good read if people care to go through it.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#7
I don't know why electronic music wouldn't be a valid art form. Composing electronic music is the same as composing any kind of music. The only difference is the performance - electronic music is most of the time programmed, non-electronic music is played on actual instruments.

But I don't see how writing electronic music would differ from writing non-electronic music with pen and paper or on Sibelius 7 or Guitar Pro or whatever. When you write music, you are not playing/performing it. I don't know why "playing skills" need to be even mentioned when talking about electronic music. Those are irrelevant. I'm pretty sure Mozart didn't know how to play all instruments in the orchestra but he still wrote for the whole orchestra. You can also be a great composer without being great at playing an instrument. Composing and playing skills are different skills. Also, good sounding music doesn't need to be difficult to play.


Using samples is fine - it takes creativity to take an existing piece and making it work in a different context, creating something new with something old.


I don't know what would make using an actual instrument to compose a song superior to using a computer for that. Actually, one could argue that the instrument limits your composition. You'll most likely play things that your fingers are familiar with. How is that any more "valid" way of composing music? How does that take any more talent?
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#8
I think it's definitely a valid artform, but it's still not the same as playing an instrument.

I think electronic music gets a bad rep because people assume the computers are doing more than they actually are, and attribute good song design to the computers, but also, before computers, if you were going to make music, you basically needed a good sense of timing, or to have at least trained your body to be able move on beat. The physical aspect of playing an instrument at a high level demands a lot of work. Even composers before the digital era could play at least one instrument, if not always, a large majority of the time.

For me, the trade off with producers, is that they need to know how a lot of plugins work, including sound design, and they need to know how they all sound, and they need to have a good idea of all their libraries and stuff like that, which takes a lot of time. But I think that's easier to go unnoticed than someone developing the skill to do something that's very physically difficult.

But still, now, literally anyone with a computer can produce something. It won't necessarily be amazing, but it will be something, and I think that accessibility kind of hurt its image. I think that how "performers" of digital music aren't really doing all that much, hurt it also.

It's kind of like photography becoming mainstream to me, whereas there were only painters before. Capturing a portrait or landscape or whatever became a skill everyone could easily do. Now, anyone can snap a picture, but it is still a valid artform, or at least can be. The art of it, to me, isn't really in the creation of a thing. I find, there is a difference between a simple craftsman, and an artist. Technically the terms aren't exclusive, but there is a distinction there for me. A simple craftsman might build you a chair to sit on, and it is functional, and that's it. But an artist might make a really cool chair, that functions as a chair but looks incredible, or comes with some other message attached, or something.

The real art of it comes from the design, not just the creation of something. Although the creation of something is definitely one of the cool parts of art for me anyway. I like the idea of starting with a plain piece of wood, or a blank page, or a new DAW file, or a box with strings on it, and turning that into a drawing or chair or song or whatever. Making something where there was nothing before, and now something brand new to the universe exists. There is definitely something cool about that in its own right, I find.
#9
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I don't know why electronic music wouldn't be a valid art form. Composing electronic music is the same as composing any kind of music. The only difference is the performance - electronic music is most of the time programmed, non-electronic music is played on actual instruments.

Interesting electronic music is just as interesting to watch as interesting RIM. A lot of people performing electronic stuff are still using hardware and a good performer can be absolutely incredible to watch. I saw Venetian Snares live and his performance was pretty involved.

Like the first three minutes of this is him getting stoned :') but then he gets into his set and it's pretty cool to watch. At least to me. I only remember being happy in comparison to not being happy which is what I am now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaFIQNZmfB4

But anyway, electronic music is objectively great.
#10
i think the real question is why the fuck do we even have guitars? can we just make guitar go away? bass is better anyway
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#11
Quote by fingrpikingood
I think it's definitely a valid artform, but it's still not the same as playing an instrument.


Beethoven didn't play any instruments in his symphonies either but he is highly regarded.
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#12
Quote by Hail
i think the real question is why the fuck do we even have guitars? can we just make guitar go away? bass is better anyway


I think there's no reason to hide it anymore. Hail, we talk about guitars only to annoy you. I'm sorry you had to hear it like this.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#13
it's working
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
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#14
Quote by Hail
it's working


So, what's your stance on 9 and 10 string guitars replacing bass thanks to their lower register?
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#15
Quote by Hail
i think the real question is why the fuck do we even have guitars? can we just make guitar go away? bass is better anyway


You pose an interesting philosophical point. I've lost track of the number of bands I've seen where I've wished the guitar(ist) would just go away. The bass player is stalwart ... does what's required ... no more ... no less. If we're lucky, this can even be in time.
#16
Quote by theogonia777
Beethoven didn't play any instruments in his symphonies either but he is highly regarded.


At the age of 21 he [Beethoven] moved to Vienna, where he began studying composition with Joseph Haydn, and gained a reputation as a virtuoso pianist. -Wikipedia
#20
Quote by fingrpikingood
At the age of 21 he [Beethoven] moved to Vienna, where he began studying composition with Joseph Haydn, and gained a reputation as a virtuoso pianist. -Wikipedia


That had absolutely no relevance whatsoever to what I said. You should feel bad.
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#21
Quote by theogonia777
That had absolutely no relevance whatsoever to what I said. You should feel bad.


You're right, I'm sorry. I understand what you mean now. I had misunderstood, because had what you said been relevant to the comment you quoted in the first place, it would have meant that you had implied that he could not play an instrument. You should feel bad.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 6, 2016,
#22
Quote by fingrpikingood
You're right, I'm sorry. I understand what you mean now. I had misunderstood, because had what you said been relevant to what you quoted in the first place, it would have meant that you had implied that he could not play an instrument. You should feel bad.


Electronic producers play instruments.
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#23
Quote by theogonia777
DJs play instruments.


I never said otherwise. I in fact linked a DJ playing an instrument. But there is a difference between the modern digital versions, where they beat match, and hit cues that automatically come in on the right bar, and do filter sweeps, and someone whose motion instantly influences the timing and pitch of sounds.

A DJ cutting and scratching, like in the video I posted, qualifies for me. A lot of digital producers I don't find qualify, even if they are on stage pressing buttons and turning knobs.

Not saying it's any less of an artform, it's just not the same sort of thing. It's one thing to program stuff, and another to produce the music from moving your body.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 6, 2016,
#24
But they still know how to play an instrument even if they don't play it in a live performance. Beethoven likewise did not play an instrument in live performances of a lot of his works. It's the same thing. Actually it isn't. Beethoven didn't even do anything in performances of his symphonies. Probably sat by and fell asleep because he couldn't hear anything.
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#25
Quote by theogonia777
But they still know how to play an instrument even if they don't play it in a live performance. Beethoven likewise did not play an instrument in live performances of a lot of his works. It's the same thing. Actually it isn't. Beethoven didn't even do anything in performances of his symphonies. Probably sat by and fell asleep because he couldn't hear anything.


Ya, a lot of the time producers can also play instruments. I produce electronic music sometimes also, it obviously doesn't mean that I can't play an instrument. In some cases great songwriters can't really play any instruments that well, but still have great timing, and could have been great at it. Michael Jackson is a great example of that.

But it used to be that in order to produce music, you basically had to be able to play one. Most or all great composers could play instruments, and got a lot of credibility from that also, in the days before recordings existed. Composing from sheet music is very different from programming in a DAW, because you don't get to instantly hear what you write from an outside source. So, I would imagine a large number of composers would compose while sitting at a piano or something similar.

In this day and age, people that would have a lot of difficulty learning to play an instrument can still produce a song, because of tools like quantization and stuff like that that can help them out with the timing. But that doesn't mean what they make is great. I guess they could have written scores like that back in the day also, but like I said, it would have been very difficult without being able to play an instrument, and wouldn't really be music you could hear, until someone played it for you. So, it was a bit different. I don't think people learned or were taught how to read sheet music without learning an instrument at the same time either. It would really surprise me if people did.

Imo, most, if not all the guys that are producing/composing what I consider to be great music, would also be able to play any instrument well, and compose great music on their instrument also. It's the same sort of innate talent. Whether or not such talents take the time to physically learn an instrument has no effect on their ability to devise music. It affects the manner in which they can deliver it to the world only. And that's what has changed. It used to be that those sorts of talents would need to deliver by learning to play an instrument, and that some portion of people would have a hard time just doing that, because of the timing required. In production, that hurdle doesn't exist. There is not requisite for good timing, in so far as just making a song is concerned.

Rhythm and groove really helps a lot with being able to move the body rhythmically with high precision of timing, and is a lot like a reflex, very natural and effortless. I find you can usually tell if people have great rhythm like that by the way they move. For instance, Michael Jackson again, you can see he has great groove by the way he moves. And he can beatbox great, which to me is also playing an instrument really, but whatever. I think you'll also notice that good producers on stage will move well to the music also. I think that's more difficult to detect for some people than others, whether someone is really moving in rhythm or not, because again, it can be quite subtle sometimes, and for some stuff, like just kicks on the quarters, it's really easy to sort of fake. But like I said, I think the better producers would have no problem being great instrumentalists, if they chose to apply their energy that way, instead.

Still though, producing and playing an instrument is very different nonetheless, and a lot of the time what someone is doing on stage with their DJ equipment is also very different from someone playing an instrument on stage. Which I don't personally don't find is as compelling of a performing art, but the art and skill of production, I think can't be denied, and I think is a very cool artform also, which is why I got into production. But for me, there is nothing like the instantaneous precision control of playing an instrument, which I prefer for making music.

So the main thing I was trying to say is that if someone creates a song on their computer, that fact alone is not an indication in and of itself that they have a good sense of rhythm, or pitch, whereas with most instruments, if they produce a song by playing their instrument it is more of an indication that they do. Even though proper training enough on an instrument can make up for a lot of shortcomings. So, just making the music on an instrument alone is already sort of an achievement. On production, not so much, imo. But making something great is difficult no matter what. And I think that gets easily forgotten, and that's why producers might get a bad rep sometimes. Just like only painters could paint portraits, and then cameras came along, but skilled artistic photographers are still a thing, and it's still a great artform, even though any person can easily snap a photo.

As i'm sure you know, Beethoven didn't go deaf until later in life, but whether he performed or not doesn't make a difference. His writing was incredible, and it still makes a lot more sense to me to sit and listen in a room, to a full orchestra, full of highly skilled and trained musicians performing a piece, than to listen to listen in a room like that to a speaker playing something someone made one time, even if they are making sweeps and beatmatching, and queuing up loops and stuff. But then again, people go to the movies. So, I get how people like to do it, there are definitely a lot of appealing things about functions like that. I just don't find it entertaining in a spectator kind of way, as a musical performance. But I certainly appreciate the product, the production, and I'll be happy to stick it in my playlist.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 6, 2016,
#26
Lol people who need to play the sheet music while writing to write good-sounding music

People might not be Mozart, but people internalized music, both in composing and in reading, a lot more often before than they do now.
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Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#27
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Lol people who need to play the sheet music while writing to write good-sounding music

People might not be Mozart, but people internalized music, both in composing and in reading, a lot more often before than they do now.


I think you misinterpreted what I said. Obviously, Beethoven wrote while he was deaf. And I don't sightread, but I can play piano and guitar in my mind just fine. There is no time for testing in improvisation. I need to know exactly where the sound I want is on the instrument, before I play it, or hear it, and the sound enters my mind before it comes out of the instrument. I imagine music, literally all the time. But I am also not perfect, and make mistakes sometimes, and if I'm composing, not improvising, I like to hear parts as part of the process. It would suck pretty bad to have to write symphonies without being able to hear anything you're doing any part of the way. I recall reading something about Beethoven also, how when he was going deaf he would bang on his piano to try and hear what he was doing, and I also seem to recall something about his scores having lots of adjustments, which may or may not be related to having become hard of hearing. If I became deaf tomorrow, I could sort of cope, but if was writing sheet music, I would be making lots of adjustments also, as I replay and recheck stuff in my mind, and might notice some errors sometimes.

There are a lot of parts in an orchestra.

I would imagine people imagined music just as often before, as they do now. Unless there's something significantly different about the distribution of those genes today as compared to then.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 6, 2016,
#28
No, I'm asserting that people used to have clearer mental pictures than we do now, partly because the crutch of virtual instruments makes us depend less on our internalized ears than before.

on the other hand it might just be me
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#29
Quote by Kevätuhri
So, what's your stance on 9 and 10 string guitars replacing bass thanks to their lower register?


i just sold my 8 string bass because i got too many complaints that i was stealing the jobs of every keyboardist, guitarist, stick and theremin player in the tri-state area
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#30
Quote by Hail
i just sold my 8 string bass because i got too many complaints that i was stealing the jobs of every keyboardist, guitarist, stick and theremin player in the tri-state area


nah you sold it because it was too many for you to handle
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#31
For those of you who may remember me I've been learning to produce/mix electronic music for the past 2 years.

I played guitar originally when I used to post on these forums 4 years ago and have since learn to play piano, drums, bass, and DJ.

Without a doubt electronic music is a valid art form. Good composition is good composition regardless of whichever genre of instrumentation one decides to choose from. Whether I'm choosing strings, piano, guitar, or synthesizers... beautiful notes speak for themselves.
#32
Quote by Hail
i just sold my 8 string bass because i got too many complaints that i was stealing the jobs of every keyboardist, guitarist, stick and theremin player in the tri-state area


Man, theremin players must hate you. Or love you, since you showed them that they have other options.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#33
Quote by NeoMvsEu
No, I'm asserting that people used to have clearer mental pictures than we do now, partly because the crutch of virtual instruments makes us depend less on our internalized ears than before.

on the other hand it might just be me



I see what you mean. Idk about that one. I believe how the mind perceives sound is genetic. I think random sort of sound generator plugins like cthulu could definitely serve as a crutch, but for me, it is an instrument that can sometimes be a bit crutchy, because I can rely on autopilot of shapes and patterns on the instrument, which I actively try to avoid doing. On a piano roll I click and drag until I hear the note I want, and layer like that, or whatever.

I think in Mozart's day he probably had to train more to name and understand everything he was hearing, for instance, he would know exactly what sort of key a piece would be in if he heard it, and what chords he was hearing, with really high fidelity from having named them all so well, and for that, I think instruments or piano rolls can serve as a crutch also, since that level of training is not necessary for those things. But I think that's sort of the same thing, as seeing a mathematical formula on a blackboard before you understand it, and then learning about it, and naming everything and then seeing it again. The seeing of it, is genetic and doesn't change. Whereas the sort of organization or interpretation does.
#34
I hate the breakdowns in this type of music. You know the drums go hits quarter notes then 8th notes,16th then 32th notes!! I swear every songs got it, gives me a headache
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#35
I'm pleasantly surprised that this thread is on it's second page. I genuinely thought that nobody would even read it, let alone reply!

I agree with comments about djs 'playing an instrument' and this was the type of djing I did (cutting, mixing, scratching, etc. ) One of the reasons I stopped djing is because cd mixing took over and a lot of clubs now don't even have record decks. Technology did advance to allow you to cue and scratch cds like vinyl but to me it's not the same (part of the skill of scratching was being able to put a record on the deck and cue it up at lightning speed rather than 'select track 05'). These days a computer does it automatically and really it makes do difference whether the so-called dj is there or not.

Circling back to where I left off in my orignal post and electronic music being performed live...

The way it was made interesting was via the dj! (I'm talking about proper djs not cheesy wedding types or the guy that basically plays the top 10 pop chart on repeat).
DJs didn't just play tunes, they used them as tools to create something new. The way different tunes were chopped, blended and mixed into each other changed it into something else. It took the listener on a journey and each dj had there own style meaning you could hear them play largely the same tunes but still sound totally different. Some genres such as drum and bass had MCs that would hype the crowd and sing/rap over the music. This meant that the music had a new dimension and was evolving. As a producer it was amazing to not only see people dancing to your music but the hear it transformed into something else live in a club.

This was the equivalent of a band jamming but it happened live! Imagine you heard Dream Theatre jamming with the Red Hot Chilli Peppers live at a festival and then Snoop Dogg came out and started free-styling over it and when you think you've it all Eddie Van Halen turns up and launches into a thundering solo!

The same kind of creativity (and insanity! ) was created but using existing songs (or parts of them) as the raw ingredients of an electronic symphony. The sound and the medium may have evolved but the passion and creativity mimicked the psychedelic movement of the late 60s (with equal amounts of mind altering drugs!).

Sadly this was a life style that 'Thatcher Britain' didn't approve of! Police raids and a heavy propaganda campaign pretty much killed off the underground scene ( apart from nostalgic 'old skool reunions'). Some genres did manage to live on but most were passings fads that died out; happy hardcore, trance, deep house, UK garage all came and went.

In a way commercialism both sustained and killed it at the same time. Partly because it wasn't cool to like what everyone else liked. But more so because the charts were flooded with watered down generic crap! As if that wasn't bad enough but lazy assed producers sought to cash in on whatever the latest craze was. This often meant cheesy generic remixes of old songs just to make a few bucks. It got so bad that people were literally just sticking a generic dance beat over old 80s tracks (Run Dmc - It's like that! Anyone?) Also the art of djing died out and with it the whole 'live' spectacle I mentioned above. Some became disenfranchised with the scene and started exploring other genres like metal (i.e me!), others fought hard to try and preserve it but eventually faded away. And like I already said, some just cashed in.

I mentioned cd mixing killing off djing... Well I witnessed on numerous occasions top names turning up at clubs and just playing a pre-recorded mix cd! Imagine if you went to see AC DC and they mimed!!!

Unfortunately it's the shame artists and the 'cashers in' that a lot of people associate with electronic music. People within the scene hate the dull, repetitive, cut and paste, carbon copy crap just as much as the people who like 'real music' and now the tools that we once used to create something new and original; are now used to knock out lazy, generic backing tracks for pop stars to sing over. There is no talent or skill in this!

Avicci is no more of an ambassador for electronic music than Mcfly are too rock music or Vanilla ice is to rap!

The main reason why I decided to write this thread/article bordering on essay! Lol
Is because that's the kind of prejudice I often hear from 'real musicians' and it's based largely on ignorance.


Whether or not any of this has helped to inform/educate or even just entertain people is not for me to say. I doubt that I will be able to change peoples minds any more than the people that try to convince me that football/soccer is a great sport (it there a lot of skill involved? Yes but it's still mind numbingly boring to watch!) FYI: To me baseball, basket ball and American football are equally as tedious! And to answer a question that no one even asked... My list of 'approved' sports includes: rugby (number 1 by far!), Olympic weight lifting, Power lifting and strongman competition and MMA/cage fighting.

And I will end on that completely irrelevant tangent!
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Last edited by Matriani at Mar 7, 2016,
#36
Quote by Kevätuhri
Man, theremin players must hate you. Or love you, since you showed them that they have other options.

yeah they could play an easier instrument that's designed for jealous people like a banjo
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


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You win. I'm done here.
#37
Quote by Hail
yeah they could play an easier instrument that's designed for jealous people like a banjo


if it's so easy why do you suck at that too
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#38
yes electronic music actually takes a lot of skill to make it and tons of creativity. I am one of those people who is always supporting new technology in music. I mean really? a guitar or any instrument aint technology thats been just evolving over decades and some even a century or two? Im all for using technology to create new music and new instruments and ways to make it. There is no problem in change but some people don't like to see music take different paths lol. but useing autotune to turn your voice with no practice to sound perfect, nope. I don't mind a pinch of auto tune in the mix or the fact you sometimes want that robot voice for whatever but yea.
#39
Quote by guitarninjama
but useing autotune to turn your voice with no practice to sound perfect, nope.


I don't think that bad autotune is the problem of electronic music these days. It seems to apply more to the one hit wonder teen pop stars.

Quote by Matriani
football/soccer is a great sport (it there a lot of skill involved? Yes but it's still mind numbingly boring to watch!) FYI: To me baseball, basket ball and American football are equally as tedious! And to answer a question that no one even asked... My list of 'approved' sports includes: rugby (number 1 by far!), Olympic weight lifting, Power lifting and strongman competition and MMA/cage fighting.


I've noticed that I'm one of the less Finnish Finnish persons out there, but I guess there's some of that in me since I only watch ice hockey. I've also seen many small rugby matches live now since I have family members playing it, it's not too bad.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
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