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#1
would their maths be the same or would it be different?

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#2
I believe it would be close to 100% the same, notations would change, but it would all work the same. Maths is constant throughout the universe
#3
It would be way advanced and a bit different,but essentially the same.
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#4
Well might perceive time and reality different than them, and if they are "more" intelligent than us, we could be way of to begin with.

interesting thought (hits blunt)
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#5
Quote by Bladez22
I believe it would be close to 100% the same, notations would change, but it would all work the same. Maths is constant throughout the universe


would their periodic table also be the same?

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#8
Quote by EndTheRapture51 at #33867814
would their periodic table also be the same?


I'm not good enough at chemistry to be able to give a solid answer, but I'd guess it would be similar. Maybe arranged differently, ordering things on different variables ect
#9
Quote by Bladez22
I'm not good enough at chemistry to be able to give a solid answer, but I'd guess it would be similar. Maybe arranged differently, ordering things on different variables ect


that is the incorrect answer

the entire reason why the periodic table is a table like that is because it is arranged by the most fundamental variables for chemistry

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#10
Quote by EndTheRapture51
would their periodic table also be the same?

The set of elements would be the same, or slightly expanded.

Either that, or physics is wrong.
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#11
Quote by EndTheRapture51
that is the incorrect answer

the entire reason why the periodic table is a table like that is because it is arranged by the most fundamental variables for chemistry

Only a dick asks a question on a forum when he knows the answer lol.
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#12
Since math is discovery it would be the same but the amount of discovery they have versus what we have would surely vary.
Last edited by EyeNon15 at Mar 6, 2016,
#13
I'll just post in here never mind my thread

Quote by Bladez22
I believe it would be close to 100% the same, notations would change, but it would all work the same. Maths is constant throughout the universe

If the notation changes doesn't that mean that maths is just a language to describe those concepts? So that means of course math is constant throughout the universe, because the concepts of change, quantity, patterns, space etc exist throughout the universe. Those concepts aren't math, math is just a way of talking about them.


And there's no guaranteeing that any other intelligent life will develop those concepts similarly to us. Their "math" may not include time or space, for example, because their conceptions of space could vary.
#14
Quote by ali.guitarkid7 at #33867835
I'll just post in here never mind my thread


If the notation changes doesn't that mean that maths is just a language to describe those concepts? So that means of course math is constant throughout the universe, because the concepts of change, quantity, patterns, space etc exist throughout the universe. Those concepts aren't math, math is just a way of talking about them.


And there's no guaranteeing that any other intelligent life will develop those concepts similarly to us. Their "math" may not include time or space, for example, because their conceptions of space could vary.


yes but 2+2=4 will be the same on all planets

you can change the symbols, but the fundamentals will be the same, you'll just be saying 2+2=4 in a different mathematical language
#15
an actual good question would be asked is that

assuming the force of gravity, orbit of their sun etc. is different

how would the physics / mechanics calculations pan out with the different things they use in place of metres etc.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#16
Quote by Bladez22
yes but 2+2=4 will be the same on all planets

you can change the symbols, but the fundamentals will be the same, you'll just be saying 2+2=4 in a different mathematical language

But 2 + 2 = 4 is quantity, not math. You're acting like math prescribes these concepts, not the other way around.


And it's not like regular language can't express quantity or change or patterns. It doesn't make English a 'mathematical language'. You got math, and then you got everything else.
#17
Quote by EndTheRapture51
an actual good question would be asked is that

assuming the force of gravity, orbit of their sun etc. is different

how would the physics / mechanics calculations pan out with the different things they use in place of metres etc.

I wager 400 quatloos it would be fine.
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#18
Quote by Bladez22
yes but 2+2=4 will be the same on all planets

you can change the symbols, but the fundamentals will be the same, you'll just be saying 2+2=4 in a different mathematical language


But the more complex the math gets beyond 2+2 the less likely two different intelligent species from two different places in the universe are always making the same exact mathematical discoveries. seem pretty slim to me.
One breakthrough discovery can completely change the course of mathematical understanding and approach here on earth.
#20
Quote by EyeNon15
But the more complex the math gets beyond 2+2 the less likely two different intelligent species from two different places in the universe are always making the same exact mathematical discoveries. seem pretty slim to me.
One breakthrough discovery can completely change the course of mathematical understanding and approach here on earth.

How so?

The relationships between the internal angles of a triangle and the lengths of the sides aren't going to change because you're not using cromulent terms like sine, cosine and tangent.
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#21
They might not be capable of understanding ratios, for one. Humans aren't some template of intelligent life.
#22
Quote by slapsymcdougal
How so?

The relationships between the internal angles of a triangle and the lengths of the sides aren't going to change because you're not using cromulent terms like sine, cosine and tangent.


If you meet a group of people who have never studied triangles or that have tried but failed to realize the relationship of angles and sides then your math is going to look different from their math.
When we are throwing out simple shit like 2 +2 and triangle formulas Yeh even the most primitive of intelligent life can figure that out. But when math gets more complex then the odds of separate groups isolated from each other all making the exact same discoveries are pretty slim.

Even here on earth ancient civilizations all had an understanding of math, 2 +2 equaled 4 in all of them.
But in its entirety the mathematical understanding was different in all of them.
#23
Quote by EyeNon15 at #33867859
But the more complex the math gets beyond 2+2 the less likely two different intelligent species from two different places in the universe are always making the same exact mathematical discoveries. seem pretty slim to me.
One breakthrough discovery can completely change the course of mathematical understanding and approach here on earth.


has there ever been a breakthrough which discredits previous maths? honest question, because I dont actually know for sure, but I'm pretty sure there hasn't been. Pythagoras theorm was a gamechanger, and old trig ratios were discovered to have been used by the Babylonians. A lot of mathematical discoveries have been made but that doesn't change the way we see or use maths
#24
Quote by ali.guitarkid7 at #33867854
But 2 + 2 = 4 is quantity, not math. You're acting like math prescribes these concepts, not the other way around.


And it's not like regular language can't express quantity or change or patterns. It doesn't make English a 'mathematical language'. You got math, and then you got everything else.


could you elaborate? I think I get what you're saying but I don't fully understand

I dont want to try and argue against something I don't actually understand now and I don't claim to be an expert in this, I know a fair amount of maths, but I know I don't know it all. But my own understanding (helped by people who do know a lot about maths) is that it should in theory stay constant throughout the universe
#25
Imma say yes cuz smart people think so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDrBIKOR01c

He talks about various messages we sent along with time capsules and interstellar probes like voyager, basically it's written in maths (tho different notation) cuz we assume it's the same across the universe

edit: erm wrong video. gimme a sec


Gozd in gora poj,
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le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
Last edited by JamSessionFreak at Mar 6, 2016,
#26
Math is language, right? So three (English) and 3 (math notation, number) are a concept of quantity. Yhe expression of two twos being four isn't mathematical, because math gives us a formal structure to discuss that logic. 2^2 = 4 is kinda like a synonym. So naturally they're as likely to have math as they are English or Russian (think about it: English and Russian figures of speech may seldom overlap in meaning. You could construct whole languages around ideas not expressed in English--Schadenfreude or ennui, for example, for which we have no definite denotative analogues but can still understand regardless, cuz nothing is "untranslatable"). Math could be a discipline expressesed through their regular language, taught with everyday lingual notation as opposed to that dedicated discipline. Their math classes could very well be philosophy or an equivalent to English or Russian or Spanish.
#27
Quote by Bladez22
has there ever been a breakthrough which discredits previous maths? honest question, because I dont actually know for sure, but I'm pretty sure there hasn't been. Pythagoras theorm was a gamechanger, and old trig ratios were discovered to have been used by the Babylonians. A lot of mathematical discoveries have been made but that doesn't change the way we see or use maths

No, EyeNon is right, and Euclid was a know-nothing scrub.

Oh wait, I think I got that the wrong way round.
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#28
Quote by ali.guitarkid7 at #33867968
Math is language, right? So three (English) and 3 (math notation, number) are a concept of quantity. Yhe expression of two twos being four isn't mathematical, because math gives us a formal structure to discuss that logic. 2^2 = 4 is kinda like a synonym. So naturally they're as likely to have math as they are English or Russian (think about it: English and Russian figures of speech may seldom overlap in meaning. You could construct whole languages around ideas not expressed in English--Schadenfreude or ennui, for example, for which we have no definite denotative analogues but can still understand regardless, cuz nothing is "untranslatable"). Math could be a discipline expressesed through their regular language, taught with everyday lingual notation as opposed to that dedicated discipline. Their math classes could very well be philosophy or an equivalent to English or Russian or Spanish.


right I see what you're saying, and its something I haven't considered before, so will go and have a think properly at some point, its a very interesting idea. I've never considered maths as a language before, but it does make some sense

My opinion would be that even if the language used to express the mathematical ideas change, the maths is still the same at the core. You can express everything in the universe via maths, time functions of lunar cycles, spin of planets/starts ect, and I think that those mathematical functions will be universal, even if they are expressed differently. A maths equation/problem is the same in hexadecimal as it is in binary, if that makes sense? the numbers are expressed differently, but the core calculation will be universal, and I'm extrapolating that argument to account for alien number systems (assuming they even use what we know as numbers)

/pretentious talk
#29
i hope the first aliens we meet aren't carbon based

imagine like an iron based life form

would be cool as fuck

hopefully we can get them when they're still undeveloped because im not going to war with ironmen
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#30
Quote by Trowzaa
i hope the first aliens we meet aren't carbon based

imagine like an iron based life form

would be cool as fuck

hopefully we can get them when they're still undeveloped because im not going to war with ironmen

yeah it would very fucking cool but you're gonna get either carbon or (very unlikely) silicon. all other elements are plebs at making compounds

im sorry :c


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#31
Quote by Trowzaa
i hope the first aliens we meet aren't carbon based

imagine like an iron based life form

would be cool as fuck

hopefully we can get them when they're still undeveloped because im not going to war with ironmen
Quote by EndTheRapture51
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#32
Quote by JamSessionFreak at #33867999
yeah it would very fucking cool but you're gonna get either carbon or (very unlikely) silicon. all other elements are plebs at making compounds

im sorry :c



silicon based would be cool

it would be like living boob implants

Quote by Banjocal at #33868007


broken image but i was also thinking it
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#34
Well, our math(s) and science systems were developed by humans to describe to other humans how everything in our universe logically works.

I am sure that other species throughout the galaxy would have similar concepts, but different ways of describing them.
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#35
Quote by Trowzaa


silicon based would be cool

it would be like living boob implants

nah that's silicone, a compound of silicon and oxygen*. the naming is stupid af tbh

this is silicon



*well, group of compounds containing other shit as well but w/e

actually now that i think about it you're prolly right, there'd be mostly silicone so basically fake boobs and dildos


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
Last edited by JamSessionFreak at Mar 6, 2016,
#36
do you think hyper-intelligent alien species like to do it in the bum too?
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#37
only one way to find out ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#39
is there any scientific evidence to why silicon based lifeforms could exist

like surely it is just more thermodynamically stable for them to exist as carbon based (i assume we're talking DNA, lipids, carbohydrates and protein structures that make up the body) here

like there's a shit ton of silicon about in our plane but no life made off it

i just dont see why people would think it possible other than the fact oh its 1 period down in the table from carbon

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#40
What is fundamental is the formal systems we base math on. Stuff like setting up a language we work in with its notation, identifying axioms and postulates in it, establish it as a "theory" and then following logical rules and structure to expand on it.
Over time we find discrepancies with the theory, for instance, said theory is not complete or consistent with our understanding of the world. The theory may have started just to explain certain phenomena or concepts from our reality, but we may find that the theory alone is not enough to do so after we learn more about said subject (e.g Newton's theory of gravity and motion is not consistent based on our understanding of motion with relativity).

I think this is something that is constant between every being. Intelligent beings need a conception of logic and rules like the above to "figure out" stuff. Math is an application of logic on abstract conceptual models with the purpose to better understand said models and their limitations, with the objective of improving our understanding of the world in parallel when we can apply those models unto our world. An intelligent being can't "do math" unless they are able to understand and do the above, thus they need those fundamentals.

Yes, they may say "Quack" instead of "2" and may not have any geometric theory or not use Euclidean one and instead a new one we can't even conceive or something. They may also have no conception of numbers for instance and think of everything in terms of abstract fields and groups and have a very structured conception of things. Who knows?
But that also may have happened with us had some specific dudes not come up with specific terminology and mathematical models, and instead came up with other ones.

So the specific mathematical models and theories may differ, they may lack ones or have new ones, but the fundamentals of logic and maths, in particular their purpose and application, stay the same
Last edited by gonzaw at Mar 6, 2016,
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