#1
Hello,

I just got a Hot Rod Deluxe, and while I love the amp, it is just too darn loud, especially when trying to get it into breakup or overdrive at reasonable volumes. Lots of people on the Internet have suggested upgrading the speaker in it from the stock Fender/Eminence special design to not only give it a better tonal response and make the drive channel a bit more usable (which I do desire) but also to allow it to naturally distort at lower volumes by using a lower efficiency speaker (which is what I'm really after).

Do you have any suggestions for speakers that would let me do this and would sound good in a Hot Rod Deluxe fed by my side Les Paul? I mostly play blues and rock and my favorite artists are SRV, Clapton, Robben Ford, Satriani, and Santana.

I've seen several recommendations of low efficiency 12 inch speakers like the Jenson C12N, Eminence Texas Heat, or maybe even Eminence's Flux Density Modulating speakers with a built in 9 dB attenuator like the Maverick or Reign maker, but I have no idea which would be best for a HRDx and which would be best for lower volume tube overdrive. I don't really have a preference for British or American sounds, I just want to end up with something sounds good.

Thanks!
#2
a texas heat isn't really what i'd call low efficiency. eminence are pretty optimistic with their ratings, but even assuming they're rating it 2-3dB too high, that's still gonna be around 97dB which is pretty loud.

some of the jensens are pretty low efficiency but i'm not sure they'd be what you want if you want to improve the od channel's tone. i don't have that much experience with them, though, so i could be wrong.

you really need to get the efficiency way down for it to make a noticeable difference, especially if it's currently way too loud. you're talking low 90s or even high 80s dB, and the vast majority of guitar speakers are a good bit higher than that. you're really narrowing down your options if you need to get the efficiency that low. it might be worth it if it does get it quiet enough, but you might end up with a speaker which is quiet enough but which doesn't sound the way you want.

you'll notice I haven't made any specific speaker recommendations because I have no experience with swapping speakers in an HRD, what I posted is just general advice.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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Last edited by Dave_Mc at Mar 11, 2016,
#3
I've had a HRD for years. I understand what you desire, but it think you're beating your head against a wall here. It's a loud amp with a fair amount of headroom.

Your best bet at getting crunch from a HRD at lower volumes? Get good, genre-appropriate dirt pedals and keep the volume where you desire.

The Keeley Katana Blues might be a good option for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WN_o5OAYXI&sns=em
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

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Log off and play yer guitar!

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Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Mar 11, 2016,
#5
you'll never get power amp distortion at bedroom or living room levels with a speaker change.
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
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#6
Also the OD channels are shit.

I don't really think you know what you know about power tube saturation and overdrive. 5 watts cranked into max volume is STUPID loud. For example, at 1 watt through a v30 is around 100db.10 watts, 110db. That isn't very comfortable.

Get a good OD pedal and push the clean channel with that. I don't own a HRD, Danny does and i am sure he could provide a list of at least 50 od pedals. lol.

Personally for od pedals, I really like the fulltone fulldrive 2 mosfet. Under $80 used all day.
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#7
Quote by Will Lane
The HRD has preamp and master volume controls. Bump the preamp up for gain, use the master for overall volume.


I am guessing you have not spent much time with them. Yes the knobs are there but they don't work that fantastically. nor does it like a chorus of angels singing
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
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#8
Quote by trashedlostfdup

Get a good OD pedal and push the clean channel with that. I don't own a HRD, Danny does and i am sure he could provide a list of at least 50 od pedals. lol.

For blues-based rock? Not quite 50!

To the Keeley KBD I mentioned upthread, I'll add:

Dr. No: Drive-O-Matic
Red Witch: Famulus OD/Dist
T-Rex: MAB Overdrive (discontinued?)
ThorpyFX: Gunshot Overdrive
TrueTone (formerly Visual Sound) Jekyll & Hyde OD/Dist
Wampler: Ace 30 (renamed to Thirty Something)
XTS: Atomic Overdrive

Of those, the best value for $ is probably the Visual Sound V2 version of the J&H- used ones are under $90, sound good, and are built like tanks.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#9
Also look into zvex and pigtronix.

Also the fulltone gt500 is pretty sweet. I have one, and its not going anywhere.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#10
good old fashioned Tubescreamer will get you blues rock sounds with that amp. you might want to look for a TS style pedal with better tone controls like a Digitech Hardwire CM-2. that pedal also has a switch to up the gain in case you want say Gary Moore instead of SRV.
#11
Put a 12AT7 in the V1 position of your preamp.
Gear: Gibson Les Paul Studio, Gibson SG Special, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Fender Jazzmaster, Gretsch Pro Jet, Carvin C350, Epiphone ES-339 P90, Epiphone ES-335 Pro. Peavey 6505, Sovtek MIG-100, Vox AC30, Peavey XXX.
#12
Quote by trashedlostfdup
I am guessing you have not spent much time with them. Yes the knobs are there but they don't work that fantastically. nor does it like a chorus of angels singing
I am familiar with the general consensus that the HRD drive stuff is not very pleasant. But it will "break up" at bedroom volumes with those controls, just maybe not as pleasant as most would like...
#13
Thanks for all the help guys!

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a Tube Screamer, but for more Marshally rock stuff would Lovepedal Plexi 800, original Marshall Guv'nor kit from GGG (I'm fine with diy), or an MI Audio Crunch Box be good?
#14
There are a lot of TubeScreamer-based pedals out there- all of the Visual Sound/TrueTone ODs are, as I recall, as is the T-Rex MAB- for all kinds of prices. Do a little shopping and you can score a pretty good deal.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#15
^ actually quite a few of the truetone/visual sound od pedals are based on a nobels odr-1 i think.

Quote by AcousticMirror
you'll never get power amp distortion at bedroom or living room levels with a speaker change.


how come you managed to say in one line what it took me 4 paragraphs to say?

Quote by gabrielmukobi

but for more Marshally rock stuff would Lovepedal Plexi 800, original Marshall Guv'nor kit from GGG (I'm fine with diy), or an MI Audio Crunch Box be good?


yep i imagine so
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ actually quite a few of the truetone/visual sound od pedals are based on a nobels odr-1 i think.

I was told the J&H and the Son of Hyde are TS-based, and at least one side of the Double Trouble is, if not both.

Not sure about the rest, though.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Mar 12, 2016,
#17
For the Marshall stuff, there is a clone of the Lovepedal Plexi 800 circuit online for $70 that I've found, there is an MI Audio Crunch Box for $40 on the local craigslist, and there is the MGV Marshall Guv'nor clone kit for $60 on General Guitar Gadgets. Which one of those would be best with a Hot Rod Deluxe?
#18
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ actually quite a few of the truetone/visual sound od pedals are based on a nobels odr-1 i think.


how come you managed to say in one line what it took me 4 paragraphs to say?


yep i imagine so


cuz you tried to explain why.
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#19
I think you should either get a dirt pedal or change the amp. The drive channel of the amp is next to useless.

I like to use a dynacomp before OD, boosting the overdrive to get a nice tone out of it. This compressor allows you to cut through the band easier as it rolls off the low end (works well even on clean stuff). Also, gives you some compression that would feel like tube saturation.

At 4 on volume, the HRD is loud enough to be heard with a drums so it is very difficult to achieve power tube saturation out of it at reasonable volumes.

A speaker upgrade can be useful to replace the budget speaker found in HRDs but only to improve to tone, response and overall sound not to achieve distortion.
#20
Quote by dannyalcatraz
I was told the J&H and the Son of Hyde are TS-based, and at least one side of the Double Trouble is, if not both.

Not sure about the rest, though.


Both sides of the double trouble are TS based.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#21
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Marshall 1960A
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Cathbard Amplification
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#22
Quote by dannyalcatraz
I was told the J&H and the Son of Hyde are TS-based, and at least one side of the Double Trouble is, if not both.

Not sure about the rest, though.


i think you got the son of hyde confused with the route 808 (SOH is a shredmaster) but a lot of them are discontinued, and in the newer models of the J&H I don't think the J side is ts-based any more, it's open road (nobels odr-1)-based.

Quote by AcousticMirror
cuz you tried to explain why.


hahahahahahaha
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#23
I very well could be wrong- I don't exactly pay too close attention to "based on" info, unless it's obvious.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#24
i have enough pedals that i don't want to be buying the same thing twice

of course i could probably say that with a straighter face if i actually didn't have some quite similar pedals even so
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#25
I've found most of the "based on" pedals actually do add some other functions or broader performance as compared to the originals OR other clones, so I'm not too worried.

And even so, there ARE some pedals I want to buy variants of, if only to see who does it better, or which versions added more useful functions.*


* Usually, though, that's with fuzzes, not ODs, such as the Arc Effects Big Green vs the Wren & Cuff Tall Font Russian

http://arc-effects.com/big-green/
http://www.wrenandcuff.com/site/the-stompboxes/tall-font-russian
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Mar 13, 2016,
#26
Turns out I was part right, part wrong- the J&H is based on the TS808:

Quote by ProductDescription
The Visual Sound V2JH is two separate overdrive effects in one pedal, each with separate controls, and each with its own personality. They can be used separately or blended together. Jekyll accurately reproduces the sound of the original TS808 Tube Screamer, providing depth and smooth sustain. The Hyde part is a heavier extremely versatile overdrive with more bottom. Use the Jekyll & Hyde pedal's EQ to scoop out the midrange for a wide range of tones and a Sharp/Blunt switch to go from compressed to very bright. The sonic possibilities are endless.


...but the SoH is not an OD- it is based on the distortion side of the J&H.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Mar 13, 2016,
#27
^ yeah the od in the v2 J&H was a tubescreamer but in the new V3 it's open road-based (which itself is a modded (i think) nobels odr1).

and yeah the hyde side is the distortion. mr hyde was the evil one so it's the distortion.

Quote by dannyalcatraz
I've found most of the "based on" pedals actually do add some other functions or broader performance as compared to the originals OR other clones, so I'm not too worried.

And even so, there ARE some pedals I want to buy variants of, if only to see who does it better, or which versions added more useful functions.*


yeah absolutely. just if you're not careful you can end up with a ton of pedals which are just slight variations of the same thing. plus i tend to use them in the regular way (on my route 808 i have the bass boost turned off, for example).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#29
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ yeah the od in the v2 J&H was a tubescreamer but in the new V3 it's open road-based (which itself is a modded (i think) nobels odr1).

Ah! That could very well be!

I haven't gotten any of the TrueTone versions...yet I love my VS V2 J&H and H20 enough that I am most probably going to get those, at the very least.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#30
Quote by AcousticMirror
you'll never get power amp distortion at bedroom or living room levels with a speaker change.


The Fluxtone speaker will do it.

It's more money than you want to spend, I'm guessing, but it *will* accomplish the task. Fluxtone speakers will produce up to a 25 dB drop without using attenuation. That's the equivalent of making your 30W amp a 1/8thW amp. They simply vary the efficiency of the magnet on the back of the speaker by subbing in an electromagnet for the existing one. I say "simply" but it's quite the technical achievement.

I first saw these at the LA Amp show several years ago. What was stunning was that there was no change in the tone (other than what you'd expect from Fletcher-Munson), and it got so quiet you could hear the jaws drop. Unlike attenuation, it doesn't interfere with the output transformer <-> voice coil loop, so there's no change in the sound. And you can get them based on the speakers you're used to (Vintage30, for example) -- the moving parts are what create the tone more than anything else. I've since seen these used at Guitar Denter as a demo amp and in two separate recording studios.

http://www.fluxtonespeakers.com/

The Eminence speakers are a passive mechanical solution which simply move the standard magnet away from the voice coil, which also reduces the speaker's efficiency, but only by 6-9 dB (and closer to 6 than 9).

A Celestion Rocket 50 is a pretty inefficient speaker (around 95 dB) but it's still far too loud.
#31
Quote by gabrielmukobi


Go hit the Wampler Pedals site.

Between the Pinnacle, the Plextortion and there's one other pedal I can't remember, he's got the business of making a Fender sound like a hot Marshall pretty well down.

I'd suggest that buying a random DIY pedal might not be the best way to spend $70 plus shipping.
#32
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Ah! That could very well be!

I haven't gotten any of the TrueTone versions...yet I love my VS V2 J&H and H20 enough that I am most probably going to get those, at the very least.


yeah me neither. i only have the route 808 because thomann had a decent price on it. the visual sound/truetone stuff is pretty expensive in europe.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#33
Quote by dspellman
The Fluxtone speaker will do it.

It's more money than you want to spend, I'm guessing, but it *will* accomplish the task. Fluxtone speakers will produce up to a 25 dB drop without using attenuation. That's the equivalent of making your 30W amp a 1/8thW amp. They simply vary the efficiency of the magnet on the back of the speaker by subbing in an electromagnet for the existing one. I say "simply" but it's quite the technical achievement.

I first saw these at the LA Amp show several years ago. What was stunning was that there was no change in the tone (other than what you'd expect from Fletcher-Munson), and it got so quiet you could hear the jaws drop. Unlike attenuation, it doesn't interfere with the output transformer <-> voice coil loop, so there's no change in the sound. And you can get them based on the speakers you're used to (Vintage30, for example) -- the moving parts are what create the tone more than anything else. I've since seen these used at Guitar Denter as a demo amp and in two separate recording studios.

http://www.fluxtonespeakers.com/

The Eminence speakers are a passive mechanical solution which simply move the standard magnet away from the voice coil, which also reduces the speaker's efficiency, but only by 6-9 dB (and closer to 6 than 9).

A Celestion Rocket 50 is a pretty inefficient speaker (around 95 dB) but it's still far too loud.

Yeah, the Fluxtones are a little too much; i'm not too keen on spending $1000 on my HRDx I got for $250.

I understand the small amount of attenuation the Eminence speakers achieve doesn't compare to the Fluxtones, but still 6-9 dB down would put the in the low 90's of sensitivity, much lower than any speaker I've heard of besides some old vintage ones. Wouldn't that be enough to not totally overdrive it but at least get some breakup at lower volumes?
#34
But Rocket 50's sound like crap. On step forward, two steps back.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band