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#1
[SERIOUS] [Discussion]



What makes a REAL Muslim? What makes a REAL follower of any religion? Is there a right or a wrong way to follow a religion? Who decides that?

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#5
It's all subjective m8
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#6
Quote by EndTheRapture51 at #33891197
Is there a right or a wrong way to follow a religion? Who decides that?



killing innocent people is the wrong way.


i decided that.
#7
My blanket dislike for Islam is only getting stronger as these events unfold.

It's a backwards, evil and barbaric cult that has no place in this world.
RIP Tom Searle.
#9
A real Muslim follows the five pillars of Islam and prays five times a day. This is speaking as someone who was raised Muslim and then left the religion because I didn't like it. I was raised in a liberal Muslim household so I do not have insight into the way other Muslims practice their faith. However, every Muslim knows Turks aren't real Muslims, we take the faith with a pinch of salt. "Don't drink? It says wine not beer. Beer is good, we can have that..."

However, I will say that this facebook post is ridiculous. The religion is a major factor for why these things happen but the goal of the terrorists is a political one and is easily achieved by finding scriptural justification to motivate recruits.

Its no suprise that radicalism rose in the late 70s. Extremist Islam always existed but was never taken seriously until it was funded by many groups to achieve political goals in whatever region of the world we want to talk about. There are serious geopolitical factors coupled with religious justifications that makes it impossible to state which factor is the leading cause. There isnt a leading cause, there are more than one factor and to be reductive like the facebook post, is to lack nuance.

I am no means an expert in this area, but I will say this, Islam needs a reformation but cannot achieve it because the way we are (or in my case, were) taught, is that to question the qu'ran is a sin and it is not our place to question the faith of a fellow Muslim as this was akin to questioning the faith.

Moderate leaders of Islam do speak out stating these are not real muslims, but again, its the no true scotsman fallacy at work. They do not question the qu'ranic verses, they just explain them away so as to not look like the teachings are being questioned, only that these others are bastardising the faith.

Edit: Also, most Muslims do not know whats in the Qu'ran and only know what the Imam preaches. If they do read it and they have problems with it, it is explained away. This was one of the main reasons why I left the faith, the explaining away of problematic verses that didn't make sense in the context of a peace loving god promising eternity in His presence. Most muslims are just normal people going about their lives praying five times a day and going to mosque. Half of them really couldnt give two shits about what ISIS is doing. All they want to do is live in peace.
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Last edited by Guitardude19 at Mar 23, 2016,
#10
Quote by SMH07
It's all subjective m8


is muslim even a big religion when compared to christianity? some would say even kabbalah is a big religion compared to something like satanic blood cults

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#11
Quote by EndTheRapture51
is muslim even a big religion when compared to christianity? some would say even kabbalah is a big religion compared to something like satanic blood cults



Islam has over a billion followers. It's a couple hundred million short of Christianity, but way bigger than the 3rd largest.
#12
Quote by TobusRex
Islam has over a billion followers. It's a couple hundred million short of Christianity, but way bigger than the 3rd largest.


Islam has had historical success but how much success has it had in the modern era? It might have used to be a big religion but it can't attract the big names to it any more, or compete at the top level, so I wouldn't call it a big religion.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#13
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Islam has had historical success but how much success has it had in the modern era? It might have used to be a big religion but it can't attract the big names to it any more, or compete at the top level, so I wouldn't call it a big religion.


I think it's quite easily the fastest growing of the major religions. A great deal of that can be ascribed to aggressive, coercive prostelytization, and endemic poverty/ignorance. Desperate people will sign on to anything that gives them hope, even a hateful creed like Islam. Islam is still forcibly converting people at swordpoint as well (Indonesia).

Ultimately mankind will throw religion out with the bathwater, and several thousand years too late. I wonder what the people of that distant future will think of today's Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc? Probably about the same as we think of the people who believed the Viking's mythology about the cosmic cow spillling the milk which created the universe....they were all morons.
Last edited by TobusRex at Mar 23, 2016,
#15
Quote by Dreadnought
This article is one of the best I've read on the topic

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

In short, I +1 the image in the OP. It's a sign of Western egocentrism that we more or less "take credit" for the development of modern Islamic extremism when much of "Islam" dogma is in fact extreme.


The unceasing pandering to Israel by the USA has certainly aggravated our situation with the Islamic world, but you are certainly right in the fact that Islam is far from a peaceful religion. In fact it annoys the crap out of me that the media is pushing the narrative that "only" extremist Muslims are murdering people. What better way to judge a religion than by the actions of it's adherents?
#16
Anyone who follows at least some of the teachings of the quran and believes in Allah is a real muslim as far as I am concerned. Similar for people of other religions.

On a side note, I think trying to deny that terrorists are "real" muslims only makes the problem worse. Anyone who thinks that isn't really taking the problem seriously enough.
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#17
What perplexes me is when anyone claims to know what ISIS wants

"ISIS is just using a religion as a tool for political and economic gains! What the leaders really want is power?"

I challenge anyone saying this to first name the ISIS leaders, and secondly impart on me how you know what these people want. Are you mates or something?

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#18
Quote by TobusRex
Probably about the same as we think of the people who believed the Viking's mythology about the cosmic cow spillling the milk which created the universe....they were all morons.


This milk thing is quite similar to a certain Hindu myth I learned about when I was younger.
cat
#19
Quote by guitarxo
This milk thing is quite similar to a certain Hindu myth I learned about when I was younger.


I never compared those religions before, but you might be right. That's why they think cattle are sacred, I suppose.
#20
Quote by TobusRex
I never compared those religions before, but you might be right. That's why they think cattle are sacred, I suppose.

Actually most people believe they were sort of designated as sacred later on due to the following:

- influence of Buddhism re: living beings. Hinduism and Buddhism are similar partly because Hinduism absorbed many Buddhist beliefs and values to prevent people from leaving Hinduism. In my family Buddha is considered an avatar of Vishnu, for instance.

- the main species of cow found in India (esp in the South) is more useful alive than dead. It's very hardy and can go long periods without food or water while continuing to do work and provide milk. Very useful during droughts. If you go to any major Indian city today you'll still see "street cows" that are owned by poor families who use the cow for labor and let it eat whatever it finds palatable in the street.

There is no blanket prohibition of beef in Hinduism; there are very few rules that apply to all Hindus, actually. The closest I've found to one is a statement in one of the Vedas that prohibits the slaughter of temple cows.

This is where caste comes in. The higher castes were usually involved in temple management so they were less likely to eat beef than the lower castes. Eventually the consumption of any type of meat came to be seen as impure by the higher castes, and the strictest diets exclude aromatics like onions and garlic because they take one's attention away from God and instead focus it on worldly things (like how your breath smells).


Sorry I didn't realize this response would be so long. I just find cultural attitudes towards food fascinating.
cat
#21
Cool post. I had no idea of any of that.
My old signature was too long. Have a daisy.

#22
if I can identify as a cat and be taken seriously,
if I can identify as a woman and be treated as a woman as simply as that,
if both the kkk and the pope are christians...

terrorists are muslim
#23
Just part of the western drive to blame white people and not fault any kind of minority for anything. (not that muslims are ACTUALLY a global minority)
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#24
Quote by guitarxo
Sorry I didn't realize this response would be so long. I just find cultural attitudes towards food fascinating.


Me too.
#25
The only right way to follow a religion is to not follow one.
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#26
I guess I agree with the post. There's no such thing as 'real' Islam in the same sense that there is no single, true form of Christianity. There are only different interpretations of varying degrees of palatability. If someone tells you that they're killing because of their religious beliefs, it's wise to believe them.
"If God exists, there's no way he is French" - Andrea Pirlo

S A D B O Y S
#27
what is the 'regressive left'

but yeah i agree that islam has much more to do with all this shit than some people like to believe. however at the same time, i'm rarely willing to talk about this because it associates me with the idiots who are most vocal about it.


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#28
Quote by Dreadnought
This article is one of the best I've read on the topic

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

In short, I +1 the image in the OP. It's a sign of Western egocentrism that we more or less "take credit" for the development of modern Islamic extremism when much of "Islam" dogma is in fact extreme.



Why is the atlantic so good?


Also, my dislike for Islam is the same for my dislike of any religion that lends itself to be an excuse for violence or bigoted policy making. /fedora
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#29
Quote by JamSessionFreak
what is the 'regressive left'


regressive left is what you want it to be

for me it's

- over zealous feminists
- politically correct thought police
- the NUS
- people who after a terrorist attack immediately come out and say "not all muslims are terrorists!!!" as the first thing they think of when they hear of a mass loss of life

in the worst case they're actively ideological and insidious

other times they just want a moral step to stand upon and feel good

but sometimes they just value heart over head

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#30
Quote by EndTheRapture51
regressive left is what you want it to be

for me it's

- over zealous feminists
- politically correct thought police
- the NUS
- people who after a terrorist attack immediately come out and say "not all muslims are terrorists!!!" as the first thing they think of when they hear of a mass loss of life

in the worst case they're actively ideological and insidious

other times they just want a moral step to stand upon and feel good

but sometimes they just value heart over head


OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#31
Quote by MeGaDeth2314 at #33891222
killing innocent people is the wrong way.


i decided that.

___

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#32
Quote by Guitardude19
The religion is a major factor for why these things happen but the goal of the terrorists is a political one and is easily achieved by finding scriptural justification to motivate recruits.


This is what I've come to believe as well.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#33
Yeah the narrative from the "liberal left" (specially in the US) is kind of fucked up.

There are obviously plenty of complex issues regarding the rise of ISIS, including geopolitical (which are important, because why did ISIS rise in Iraq and not in, say, Bangladesh?). However, there are hidden problems in muslim culture and doctrine like the ones Guitardude mentioned. This kind of attitude the muslim community as a whole towards the Quran, including their lack of introspection and attempts to distance themselves as much as possible from extremists without trying to fix their core problems, etc, make it possible for something like ISIS to rise.

If it was just a geopolitical issue then it wouldn't have taken the form and impact it did

Quote by JamSessionFreak
what is the 'regressive left'


I take it are people on the left which make activism towards what they think is "progressive" but which ends up not being progressive at all actually. In this context it usually refers to people defending attacks on Islam and muslim culture because they are a minority in the US, when in fact both enable mysogyny, homophobia, etc (which would make you think that, logically, a "liberal leftist" would actually condemn them).
#34
Quote by I.O.T.M
I guess I agree with the post. There's no such thing as 'real' Islam in the same sense that there is no single, true form of Christianity. There are only different interpretations of varying degrees of palatability. If someone tells you that they're killing because of their religious beliefs, it's wise to believe them.

Maybe you should ask, why do they have these beliefs, and what makes them go from, hey I'm muslim, but I don't take everything I read literally, to Die west, islamic caliphate etc. etc. i.e. what makes them so Xtreme (tm)

Also, everyone keeps talking about attitudes inherent to Islam that don't gel with modern progressive views, e.g. misogyny, homophobia, like they're unique to Islam. Last I checked the catholic church is still homophobic, anti-abortion, pedophillic. These aren't unique, they're symptomatic of a less progressive era. Saying Islam needs to change is fine, but so does pretty much 90% of the world.

Edit: And condemning refugees/migrants or an entire religion only serves to entrench the divide and create more conflict.
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Last edited by Gatecrasher53 at Mar 23, 2016,
#35
So what you're saying is we should send liberals to confuse the living fuck out of ISIS.


I'd tackle this seriously but I already did in the other thread and honestly did it better.
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Mar 23, 2016,
#36
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
So what you're saying is we should send liberals to confuse the living fuck out of ISIS.

I'd do it but my country would revoke my citizenship if I tried
(ASIO if you're reading this, it's a joke, don't take my family away)
Quote by Mr E Meat
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Given that you reside in the shade of the natural light of reason, I will defer doing your homework to you.
#37
Quote by EndTheRapture51
regressive left is what you want it to be

for me it's

- over zealous feminists
- politically correct thought police
- the NUS
- people who after a terrorist attack immediately come out and say "not all muslims are terrorists!!!" as the first thing they think of when they hear of a mass loss of life

in the worst case they're actively ideological and insidious

other times they just want a moral step to stand upon and feel good

but sometimes they just value heart over head

What makes it regressive though?

And in term, what is the 'progressive left' and what makes it 'progressive'?


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#38
This thread is clearly more angry at the left than it is at ISIS or Islam or whatever. It's ironic that leftists have come up with a term to hate leftists who they describe as "self-loathing". You're basing your opinion of one group under a unique socio-political climate on your impression of western leftists.


http://www.theonion.com/article/world-makes-final-attempt-try-understand-shit-52613


You've already given up.

Quote by ali.guitarkid7
I think the biggest change should be a modernization in religious teaching. Religion is still a huge part of communities here (think Boston Catholics as opposed to Pakistani mountain tribes) and it results in the kind of fundamentalism (the Quran was literally and factually written by God and given to an illiterate Mohammed through Gabriel himself). I think I've talked a lot about scriptural fundamentalism, and why it'd be more difficult to erase within this particular religion than others. Even moderate Muslims, progressive Muslims, would struggle with and deride concepts like agnosticism.

Islam is, compared to other religions, somewhat more tolerant in speech. E.g. that one scripture that says something along the lines of "Say, oh you sinners: I do not worship what you do, nor do you worship mine, nor will I worship what you have (in the past) worshiped. You have your religion and I have mine" which is, for a 6th century piece of religious prescription, pretty damn progressive—but in modern times this a) amounts to a call for segregation b) implies a re-affirmation of Islam's superiority.

It should be worth noting that extremism is taboo in one way alone: that it allows The (sometimes big & bad) West to misinterpret and pervert Islam. It's my understanding that many religious leaders in the Middle East already speak out against extremism, but only through that lens—it's not that ISIS is evil that counts, it's that their evil reflects poorly on you and is somehow incidental. Islam is given total amnesty from contrition, regardless of whether its inherent fundamentalism contributes to extremism. This is, in fact, never addressed.

Another real issue in the way is the secularization of academia, especially out of fear of consequence or rejection. There are several ways in which you could approach a secularized philosophy as a Muslim: treat is an alien, other, and outright reject it; create a divide between education and religion, but maintain that religion holds ultimate authority; and/or simply avoid broaching and trespassing on religion altogether, which is what the majority does.

So even in academia, religion remains a big no-no. You can teach theocracy, but not use a discipline that takes a neutral view of all religions. Within that kind of climate you can count out trickle-down ideology (upper-class intelligentsia veering into working class idealism).

These are all obstacles that need to be addressed by Islamic communities themselves, and the fact is it's not likely to happen for quite a few years. To put it simply, Islam functions somewhat similarly to white supremacy, compounded by the insertion of the great G himself into the equation. You can talk about it however way you like as an insider, so long as its universality and superiority is not questioned. ISIS is not Islam. Al Qaeda is not Islam. You can protest anything you'd like, so long as it's not Islam.

It's easy to see the irony in how this only leads to more things they can retroactively label "not Islam".
______________

(I should mention as a sort of footnote that I'm still skeptical of western liberal/conservative views of Islam. You can't deny that there is a very real effort on ISIS's part to affect western sensibilities towards Syrians, and that criticism of Islam will often become sensationalized into a criticism of the Middle East, Africa, and West Asia and its varying ethnicities. This actually tends to make our efforts both fruitless and easier to dismiss. Same goes for being protective of Islam from an outsider or atheistic racial minority perspective (such as myself), as this amounts to a society-wide enabling rather than our usually positive permissiveness. Islam needs to be studied similarly to the patriarchy or white power, especially aware that a) Muslims are minorities and b) Muslims are not even close to being minorities on a global scale.)



Here's my post from the other thread, because this thread is clearly not about understanding Islam or ISIS or Syria or the 20th century or anything of the sort. Just your own disagreement with fucking feminism.
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Mar 23, 2016,
#39
I'm mostly puzzled by the term 'regressive' because I think the vast majority of people here would find the most avant-garde and ambitious leftist movements of the 20th century very disagreeable.

I might be understanding it incorrectly which is why I'd like people to tell give me their definitions of progressive and regressive, but right now it seems like a much more 'us vs them' oriented term, instead of having anything to do with the idea of progress.


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#40
Quote by JamSessionFreak
I'm mostly puzzled by the term 'regressive' because I think the vast majority of people here would find the most avant-garde and ambitious leftist movements of the 20th century very disagreeable.

I might be understanding it incorrectly which is why I'd like people to tell give me their definitions of progressive and regressive, but right now it seems like a much more 'us vs them' oriented term, instead of having anything to do with the idea of progress.

I think it's just meant to contradict the idea of 'progressive' rather than comment or seek to understand their ideology. All under the umbrella of a discussion on ISIS.


~*~the discourse~*~
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