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#1
sooo i have a pair of pigtronix pedals that i want to run both at 18v.

one is the polysaturator, the other the aria distortion.

according to their site the aria


Current Draw: 13mA @ 9V 19mA @ 18V


the poly saturator is

Current Draw: 44mA @ 9V 150mA @ 18V


does that seem right?the pedals are just so far apart. would i be able to run them both (daisy chaned) through a 18vdc 300mA adapter? i think i should be fine, but the spread of the power constumption seems odd to me as they are both OD's and have the same five controls, and don't sound a TON different.

fugg up on their manual, or everything is right???
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#2
I don't know if it's right or not, but as far as I understand as long as the voltages are right and you have at least, or more than, the amps needed it's fine. Only time problems occur are when the voltages aren't right (could hurt the pedal) or the pedal is trying to pull more amps than the power supply can put out (could hurt the power supply).

So yea, I would think the 300mA supply should be good... unless they forgot a 0 on the end of the one and it's 190mA instead of 19, but seeing how that one draws less current than the other one at 9v it makes sense for it to take less at 18.
#3
Why run them at 18V at all? If they are used as front end pedals into an amp you don't need a signal greater than a couple of volts P-P at most and a 9V rail will do that fine. I'm not sure why the greater power consumption at all at a higher voltage to begin with. The only reason I can see is the regulator wastes more power converting the DC V into a lower voltage for the circuit forcing it to dissipate more power.
Moving on.....
#4
Quote by KenG
Why run them at 18V at all? If they are used as front end pedals into an amp you don't need a signal greater than a couple of volts P-P at most and a 9V rail will do that fine. I'm not sure why the greater power consumption at all at a higher voltage to begin with. The only reason I can see is the regulator wastes more power converting the DC V into a lower voltage for the circuit forcing it to dissipate more power.


Both pedals are better suited for 18v. How do I know? I spoke to pigtronix and tested myself. I am not asking what i want to run them at, i am asking about current to power tbem.

Maybe you should research a little more research before you post .
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#5
Yeah it's crazy but that's probably accurate. My Fuzz Factory consumes like, a tenth of the power that a Tubescreamer does. It's all in the design man. Don't be alarmed, you should be just fine for current draw.
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#6
as long as the milliamps is less than the power supply output then you are good. some pedals have a really small draw while otehrs have a bigger one.
#7
Quote by dementiacaptain
Yeah it's crazy but that's probably accurate. My Fuzz Factory consumes like, a tenth of the power that a Tubescreamer does. It's all in the design man. Don't be alarmed, you should be just fine for current draw.


Thanks. It just seems like a lot for an OD i was surprised to see it that high. I will get them running!
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#8
I don't understand why it takes more current at the higher voltage?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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#9
Quote by Arby911
I don't understand why it takes more current at the higher voltage?

Surely that's just ohm's law? A bit more complicated since there's reactances as well as resistances (and no doubt lots of added complexity I don't understand from transistors/ICs), but the same idea. Current increases with voltage.
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Last edited by K33nbl4d3 at Mar 27, 2016,
#10
Quote by K33nbl4d3
Surely that's just ohm's law? A bit more complicated since there's reactances as well as resistances (and no doubt lots of added complexity I don't understand from transistors/ICs), but the same idea. Current increases with voltage.


P=IxE

If you double the voltage you halve the current for the same power draw. That's one of the points of higher voltages, since you draw less amps to perform the same work you can use smaller wiring.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 27, 2016,
#11
Nah, the power is irrelevant, it's just ohm's law.
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#12
Quote by Cathbard
Nah, the power is irrelevant, it's just ohm's law.


Cath, I'm pretty fucking familiar with Ohms law, and it says that if voltage goes up, amperage goes down for the same work performed.

That's why an amp tapped 110/220 switchable mains will draw half the amps at 220v.

There's something else going on here.
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#13
Quote by Arby911
There's something else going on here.

Well presumably that something is that the power isn't constant

It's always, in my experience, the case that running pedals at higher voltages means a higher current draw.
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#14
At a higher voltage it performs more work.
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#15
Quote by Arby911
Cath, I'm pretty fucking familiar with Ohms law, and it says that if voltage goes up, amperage goes down for the same work performed.

That's why an amp tapped 110/220 switchable mains will draw half the amps at 220v.

There's something else going on here.



I'm an senior electronic technologist (30+ years) this is where i was coming from. The power consumption shouldn't go up, if it does the power is being wasted somewhere. But hey what do I know.
Moving on.....
#16
Should more headroom not correspond to more power? Generally that's what you run ODs at higher voltages for, and certainly in amplifiers my assumption has always been that - all else being equal - more watts means more headroom.
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#17
No, the higher voltage allows for a bigger peak to peak voltage swing, therefore it can create more power. Think of what happens with a single resistor and it will become clear.
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#18
You guys are killing me. What new and magical functions are being activated that require nearly 7 times the power?

I suspect that a significant portion of it is simply being turned into excess heat. A schematic would be interesting.

Quote by KenG
I'm an senior electronic technologist (30+ years) this is where i was coming from. The power consumption shouldn't go up, if it does the power is being wasted somewhere. But hey what do I know.


Well at least if I'm missing something I'm not alone...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 27, 2016,
#19
Well, don't forget that the fwd bias voltage remains constant. That upsets the calculations somewhat.
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#20
Quote by Arby911
You guys are killing me. What new and magical functions are being activated that require nearly 7 times the power?

You might be right about the heat, but this whole deal of putting words in people's mouths when they weren't trying to argue with you is kind of unnecessary.

Also, again I'm happy to accept that my understanding of the physics is shaky here, but since the intention of increasing voltage is to get a greater possible amplitude, wouldn't we be dealing in decibels there? So 7 times the power would correspond to somewhere between 2 and 3 times the amplitude even if the thing was perfectly efficient, which it wouldn't be.
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#21
Quote by K33nbl4d3
You might be right about the heat, but this whole deal of putting words in people's mouths when they weren't trying to argue with you is kind of unnecessary.


What are you talking about?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 27, 2016,
#22
Overdrive pedals.

If you want me to remind you that my physics isn't the best again, I can do that, but since there is an increase in current observed, the source of which you weren't clear on, I figured I might try to be helpful
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#23
Ok, let's do the math on a simple circuit of one 1 ohm resistor in series with a diode. Allowing 0.6V across the diode.
At 9V, the power across the resistor is 8.4W and the total current is 8.4A
At 18V, that power is 17.4W with a current of 17.4A. More than double.
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#24
Quote by Cathbard
Ok, let's do the math on a simple circuit of one 1 ohm resistor in series with a diode. Allowing 0.6V across the diode.
At 9V, the power across the resistor is 8.4W and the total current is 8.4A
At 18V, that power is 17.4W with a current of 17.4A. More than double.


Yeah, you're making more heat. I'm not sure what your point is? That the pedal in question is a crappy design?

And we are no closer to knowing why it's actually using more power.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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#25
That extra power manifests itself on the output, not just in heat. It won't be exactly double because of the non-ohmic nature of a SS junction but it will draw more current and produce more power.
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#26
Quote by Cathbard
That extra power manifests itself on the output, not just in heat. It won't be exactly double because of the non-ohmic nature of a SS junction but it will draw more current and produce more power.


Ok, if we assume that's what's happening, to what end?

IOW, what is it doing that isn't being done elsewhere in the pedal world with 9v?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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#27
It provides a bigger voltage swing.
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#28
Quote by Arby911
Cath, I'm pretty fucking familiar with Ohms law, and it says that if voltage goes up, amperage goes down for the same work performed.

That's why an amp tapped 110/220 switchable mains will draw half the amps at 220v.

There's something else going on here.
I had the same thought as you initially. But the reason why 220v draws less current than 110v is for an entirely different reason. You don't feed 220v into a device that takes 110v and see the current drop in half. It's because the 220v device is designed to use 220v and not 110v. Yes, something is different here. The pedal is allegedly designed to sound better at 18v, but can run at 9v. So yeah, you are surely generating more heat to get that incrementally better sound.
#29
Quote by Cathbard
That extra power manifests itself on the output, not just in heat. It won't be exactly double because of the non-ohmic nature of a SS junction but it will draw more current and produce more power.



The gain of the circuit is determined by the circuit design, not the VCC applied (at least if its designed by someone with a f**kin clue about electronics which we'll assume in this case). More than likely a good design will regulate the DC power input voltage from a range of acceptable values (in this case 9-18V despite the silkscreening on the chassis saying 9-15v) to a safe voltage which would most likely be below the lowest expected voltage (assuming a linear regulator not a switching supply). The power consumption would go up a tad with a linear reg with higher voltage in order to dissipate the unwanted DC voltage at whatever the circuit current is.

Ohms law is for DC circuits only (no reactance - inductive or capacitance) or AC components (signals).

I think its more likely the reported current is way off on the 150ma claim. The Aria rising a handleful of milliamps with larger supplied DC is much more realistic.
Moving on.....
Last edited by KenG at Mar 27, 2016,
#30
What regulator? It's a pedal, you never see a regulator in a pedal. Well apart from the buck booster in a Klon. It's double the voltage across the entire circuit. Most op-amps will run better on 18V. 9V is pushing the friendship really.
The quiescent current is dc. The same basic rules apply anyway. The entire circuit is running hotter.
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#31
i will go in detail for the moment. yes the one says 15v, i received it with an 18v adapter (used).

i called pigtronix and asked them why (not only the one i have but on the site) that list it as 18v. their response was that they printed the earlier ones with 15v but found they functioned better at 18v so they changed it. simple enough, however they had a lot of boxes already screened and that is why there is the misprint. to skip some drama, i just have been using it fine with 18v. 9v and its totally shit. i was rather surprised.

bottom line, i am pretty confident that i can run those two pedals off of the one 18v adapter that i already have. now i just need to find a daisy chain for the pair.
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#32
Quote by fly135
I had the same thought as you initially. But the reason why 220v draws less current than 110v is for an entirely different reason. You don't feed 220v into a device that takes 110v and see the current drop in half. It's because the 220v device is designed to use 220v and not 110v. Yes, something is different here. The pedal is allegedly designed to sound better at 18v, but can run at 9v. So yeah, you are surely generating more heat to get that incrementally better sound.


Nah, 110/220 switchable devices (like some amps) draw half/double the current depending on the voltage. Past the PS the circuits are identical. (As often as not the only change is a transformer tap)
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#33
Yeah, there's a transformer in the equation providing the same voltage across the circuit. So the power consumption is the same. Totally different animal.
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#34
Here's a link to one of the Polysats opened up to see the components.Pigtronix
You can see it uses 4558 Op amps and CD4049 Hex Invertor. Apparently it has JFet input (Q1 I assume down in the lower left of the pwb) I also note D1 which looks really beefy and so it's pretty safe to assume it's a Zener Diode and likely used for a cheap-arsed DC regulator as it's far too large to be a signal or even simple diode rectifier. That type of circuit will just burn the extra power as waste when a higher voltage is applied. Interestingly the CD4049 could be used to "clip"the audio signal (it can take input signals larger than it's supply voltage safely) and it might interest you to know this scheme was used by Tom Scholtz in the Rockman X100 30 years ago! ( Ihave a schematic for that and owned one I wish I'd kept.)
Moving on.....
Last edited by KenG at Mar 27, 2016,
#35
If there's any regulation involved then there'd be no advantage to be gained from running a higher supply voltage.
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#36
Quote by Cathbard
If there's any regulation involved then there'd be no advantage to be gained from running a higher supply voltage.


the difference between 9v and 18v is extremely audible in these pedals. its like a whole different beast.
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#37
Yeah, so there's no regulation.
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#38
Quote by Cathbard
Yeah, so there's no regulation.


I suppose it would depend on where the regulation kicked in. If it's better at 18 they should boost it from 9 to 18 and use a standard PS. "It works on 9 but sounds better at 18" is a shit manufacturing method.
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#39
It's true of pretty much all op-amp based circuits though. As long as the caps are rated high enough it will work better on 18V.
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#40
Quote by Arby911
I suppose it would depend on where the regulation kicked in. If it's better at 18 they should boost it from 9 to 18 and use a standard PS. "It works on 9 but sounds better at 18" is a shit manufacturing method.


FWIW they do say 9-18V (or 9-15V for the mislabels ones). and they come with 18v adapters.
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Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
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