#4
Quote by Rossenrot
One is a shameful communist that hates America and the other is Fidel Castro!

#6
Quote by Minkaro
Slams? Are they going to settle this at Wrestlemania?


Sadly I'd have to take Obama in that one...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#7
Quote by Minkaro
Slams? Are they going to settle this at Wrestlemania?

I fucking home so.
Quote by Diemon Dave
Don't go ninjerin nobody don't need ninjerin'
#9
Quote by Fat Lard



Wrist lock to SLAM transition, hmu bdof


Fidel you dolt, not Raul. He and Raul are besties!

Fucking illiterate!


“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#11
Quote by Fat Lard
It was a tag team transition >_>


Nice!
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#12
If the far left or even your more centrist democrats want to improve its public image (and overall praxis) it'd do well to disassociate itself from folks like Castro, or indeed all authoritarians pretending to be communists.

In this case- who cares what one dickhead says to another?
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#13
I think Fidel was just trying to say that his nurses didn't turn the volume of the TV up far enough, and that he nearly had a heart attack pressing the button on the remote.
#14
Quote by ultimate-slash
I think Fidel was just trying to say that his nurses didn't turn the volume of the TV up far enough, and that he nearly had a heart attack pressing the button on the remote.
Is it bad that this made me think of Tio Salamanca?
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#15
Quote by Banjocal
If the far left or even your more centrist democrats want to improve its public image (and overall praxis) it'd do well to disassociate itself from folks like Castro, or indeed all authoritarians pretending to be communists.

In this case- who cares what one dickhead says to another?

You sound like a conservative
#17
Quote by Banjocal
If the far left or even your more centrist democrats want to improve its public image (and overall praxis) it'd do well to disassociate itself from folks like Castro, or indeed all authoritarians pretending to be communists.

In this case- who cares what one dickhead says to another?

Communists are authoritarians though? Thats like asking à liberal not to be spineless.
#18
Quote by Thrashtastic15
Communists are authoritarians though? Thats like asking à liberal not to be spineless.


There's nothing inherent in Communism that requires an authoritarian governing body (or any governing body at all TBH), that's just the way it's always worked out thus far.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#19
Quote by Thrashtastic15
Communists are authoritarians though? Thats like asking à liberal not to be spineless.
(I apologise for this post in advance but I really enjoy discussing this point as I feel it's a significant point of political revisionism in world history)

Communism is by nature libertarian. The most authoritarian element of it is - ideologically speaking - the collectivist element, which may be argued to restrict negative liberty by means of establishing social codes based on collective benefit and societal doctrine - making social power their new god, if you will. Communism itself absolutely requires there to be power and means of production in the hands of the proletariat: this is unmoving, and no central authority can have this power or ability to take this power without it being by definition not communism.

Authoritarian rulers have used the red flag as their selling point but by concentrating power into capital, structures of industry (see: Leninism) and having dictators, a military police, etc, but by doing one or more of these things they preclude the very state of the proletariat actually owning the means of production - state ownership on behalf of the subjects is not synonymous with public ownership qua public ownership.

Many take "dictatorship of the proletariat" literally - Marx refers to the Paris commune, where the proles /literally/ dictated society. This is the only condition under which commu can be authoritarian - if he meant it literally, it would undermine every other word in his and Engels' work, and would, thematically and philosophically speaking, be totally out of keeping with the surrounding text.

In terms of manipulation of power and twisting of ideology, it's actually not that far away from the original ideas of neoliberalism and the way of its current execution.

I mean Marxism/communism still has some SERIOUS philosophical and political problems which are, in my opinion, insurmountable, but previous alleged "attempts" at communism were little more than nationalist or statist socialism.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Mar 28, 2016,
#20
Quote by Rossenrot
One is a shameful communist that hates America and the other is Fidel Castro!

#21
Quote by Arby911
There's nothing inherent in Communism that requires an authoritarian governing body (or any governing body at all TBH), that's just the way it's always worked out thus far.

In terms of the end goal, sure. But when it comes to getting there its certainly authoritative. Except for the anarchists that probably wouldnt call themselves communists. I get your point though.
#22
Problem is that the ways attempted in getting from social democracy/social-ism to hard communism kind of requires a slower development which these authoritarian leaders have (and still do - it's absolute horseshit but China's leading party still claim to be reds) attempted to circumvent by aggressive means which are in direct contradiction with communism's goals.

Ultimately, the dissolution of power some of these leaders "promise/d" once those systems are in place aren't really plausible - the systems instigated in order to "convert" from capitalism to communism are too ingrained and the core premise of this libertarian, collectivist utopia is undermined by its reliance on those structures that were forcibly introduced. It'd also be too sudden a change - communism sort of relies on a genuine change in attitude that's arguably "groupthink" rather than an imposed ideology that's expected to stick once the threats of death and workcamps are removed.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Mar 28, 2016,
#24
Quote by Banjocal
Problem is that the ways attempted in getting from social democracy/social-ism to hard communism kind of requires a slower development which these authoritarian leaders have (and still do - it's absolute horseshit but China's leading party still claim to be reds) attempted to circumvent by aggressive means which are in direct contradiction with communism's goals.

Ultimately, the dissolution of power some of these leaders "promise/d" once those systems are in place aren't really plausible - the systems instigated in order to "convert" from capitalism to communism are too ingrained and the core premise of this libertarian, collectivist utopia is undermined by its reliance on those structures that were forcibly introduced. It'd also be too sudden a change - communism sort of relies on a genuine change in attitude that's arguably "groupthink" rather than an imposed ideology that's expected to stick once the threats of death and workcamps are removed.


Communism may become possible after the singularity, but I suspect that as long as we are required to rely entirely on our own passions and perceptions it's a lost cause, fit only for academic discussion.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#25
imo Marx's greater contribution was engendering that discussion, and giving a serious ideological argument for positive liberty and collective thinking that was based in economics/philosophy rather than just appeals to emotion. He purposefully avoided laying out a plan for instigation, which is probably a big reason why he's now so poorly regarded. Anyway I'll stop waffling sorry

@thrash you used to be socialist?

I doubt Arby EVER was (no disrespect, of course)
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#26
Ironically, reliance on personal passions and perceptions is à fundamental backbone of most alternatives to modern capitalist society :^)
#28
Quote by Banjocal


I doubt Arby EVER was (no disrespect, of course)


None taken, and there was a lot of my life when I would have vehemently denied the suggestion.

But the truth is a little different of course. I do believe that there are some things that the Gov't can, and should do and that can not be efficiently or morally left to the private sector.

But I don't think I'll ever be of a mind that any one 'ism can adequately contain the values of a reasonable, rational and ethical person. My views lie on a scatter plot, not a line.

I'm not opposed to communism in principle, I'm opposed to it in practice...

Quote by Thrashtastic15
Ironically, reliance on personal passions and perceptions is à fundamental backbone of most alternatives to modern capitalist society :^)


It's the backbone of any currently existing system that values the individual. How could it be otherwise?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 28, 2016,
#30
Thanks Obama.
Quote by JD Close
Piano dick had some good parts, but should have said "As the business man slowly gets boned", would have accented the whole dick feeling of the album
#31
Quote by Arby911

But I don't think I'll ever be of a mind that any one 'ism can adequately contain the values of a reasonable, rational and ethical person. My views lie on a scatter plot, not a line.
(I've excluded the rest because basically I agree but) I know this feel hard.

It's a great point of cognitive dissonance where I can prefer the natural order of things, but be opposed to oppression and unequal treatment

then again those french cafe ponces basically struggled w that for the better part of a century so
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#32
Quote by Banjocal
(I've excluded the rest because basically I agree but) I know this feel hard.

It's a great point of cognitive dissonance where I can prefer the natural order of things, but be opposed to oppression and unequal treatment

then again those french cafe ponces basically struggled w that for the better part of a century so


Only man has the ability to rise above his base instincts.

And we are quite frankly not very good at it...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#33
I prefer acceptance and adaptation to denial and affect but that's going into poncey philosophy territory
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#34
Quote by Arby911
Only man has the ability to rise above his base instincts.

And we are quite frankly not very good at it...

What about rising above Basic Instinct?
Quote by Diemon Dave
Don't go ninjerin nobody don't need ninjerin'
#37
Quote by Arby911
would this old prick just die already!


Fidel is arguably one of the best leaders of any country of the 20th century mac.
#38
Quote by Banjocal
If the far left or even your more centrist democrats want to improve its public image (and overall praxis) it'd do well to disassociate itself from folks like Castro, or indeed all authoritarians pretending to be communists.

In this case- who cares what one dickhead says to another?


Don't be silly.

Diplomacy isn't necessarily a sign of "friendship", by the way. Are Republicans commies because Nixon opened relations with China?
#39
Quote by Arby911
Only man has the ability to rise above his base instincts.

And we are quite frankly not very good at it...


Only man has base instincts....animals don't know any better.
#40
Quote by TobusRex
Don't be silly.

Diplomacy isn't necessarily a sign of "friendship", by the way. Are Republicans commies because Nixon opened relations with China?
You misread my post. I am not speaking of current political relations, but historical associations: namely the conflation of authoritarian flagbearers and libertarian ideology due to said dictators, and the Red Scare in the US.

The right wing has its dictators from years gone by, but it is the left that has an almost indelible scourge to its name by the likes of Stalin, Mao, and Castro. And it is the left who - despite the demonstrable failings of authoritarian ideologies - continue to, in at least some significant part, associate with authoritarian brands of thinking and methods of achieving equality. Thus the contemptment often held for "social justice" and various other movements for SJ that deal with state-enforced and culturally imposed methods of achieving such things.

Regarding the diplomacy =/= friendship thing: water is wet. "Are republicans commies" is almost strawmannish - at what point did I imply that to associate with a political figure is to be in solidarity with their principles? If you want elaboration on why the above dictators were not communists, see a few posts down from the one you quoted.

The claim that only humans have base instincts is non-falsifiable.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Mar 29, 2016,