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#1
Please could you name any modern music that heavily utilizes deceptive cadence ? (V---> VI)
Last edited by stefanos604 at Mar 31, 2016,
#2
After so many days having not even one answer and to be more cleared I post again saying:
Theoretically, when in a melody, near the end of a music phrase or song, sounds the dominant (V) then is expected Perfect or authentic cadence (V in I or i).
This happens in almost all Greek folk and modern (at least Eurovision type) songs.
Deceptive cadence (V---> VI) is common in classical music it sounds great and facilitates modulations. I have found dozens of such classical melodies in Youtube especially in instrumental music. But I have not found even one on modern Western Music.
I am asking in learning if there is and if it would be sound great such an adaptation of deceptive cadence in modern Western Music.
In a few words I ask:
Can such rules of Classical be adapted to modern Western Music?
I mean, as an amateur of just only folk and modern music, what is the point of theoretically learning rules if then they cannot be implemented?
Or are such rules definitely not applicable in modern music and I have just been trying in vain to find such songs?
#3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI1lLJPnsqE

This is what came to my mind. I know it's not a "modern" song but the arrangement is "modern" (much more simple pop arrangement). The original chords are way different. But yeah, you can hear the V-vi in the end of the verse ("once in a lullaby").

Also, it's not a "rule", it's a common practice, and I'm sure you can find it in pop songs. Maybe not in cadences per se but I'm sure you can find V-VI chord changes in many pop songs. Radiohead's Creep is one that comes to my mind. It's really not an "actual" V-VI. It's III-IV, but the III major chord functions as a secondary dominant for the relative minor. And if you analyze it in the relative minor, the IV chord of major is the VI of the relative minor. But yeah, that's not really a cadence - a cadence is something that ends a phrase. It's just a V-VI (kind of) chord change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4H6flL-uQE

In pop I would guess it's a bit more common to go V-IV that is not common in classical music.


Oh, one of the most common chord progressions in pop music is I-V-vi-IV, or the same starting on the vi chord (vi-IV-I-V) (which in many cases is actually the i chord but it's a bit ambiguous). If you start the progression with the vi, then every repeat of the progression ends/starts with a "deceptive cadence". This progression is used in many many many pop songs. I remember posting a list of songs that used that progression in some thread...


Also, here's a song that came to my mind that uses a deceptive cadence to modulate a minor third up, and also back to the original key. The verse ends with a V chord that resolves a half step up (to bVI that becomes the IV of the new key), and the chorus ends with a V chord that resolves a whole step up (to VI major chord that becomes the I of the new key).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPmNFrPtZSw

Another (more well known) song with exactly the same key changes would be "Armageddon It" by Def Leppard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNFQw8VIvA


Sorry for the heavy editing of my post, but I just wanted to say one more thing.

I mean, as an amateur of just only folk and modern music, what is the point of theoretically learning rules if then they cannot be implemented?

Watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49alQj7c5ps

There are definitely similarities between different genres and the more you know about music, the more similarities you start seeing. Theory is not rules, it just explains what happens in music.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 2, 2016,
#4
Thanks MaggaraMarine.
A lot of staff to deal with for a long time.
Just a 1st question:
I tried to find the song in guitar .
The melody as it is played by the girl here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc2YCwVNBWg
(time 3:40 – 4:06) is C major key:
The chords progression I heard is:
C – Em – F – C – F – Fm – C – Am – G – Am – F – Fm – C. Having deceptive cadence G – Am (V ---->vi at time: 3:57 – 4:02 .
I would appreciate if you could check that 25 secs of the song and tell me if I am right or wrong. I believe I am right.
And when there will be time one melody having V --->VI (maybe in one of those you have already quote...)
A scond question: Fm that does not belong to C major how can be called?
Many thanks again.
Last edited by stefanos604 at Apr 2, 2016,
#5
The IVm chord is a classic example of modal interchange.

Basically, we're using a chord from C minor in C major for effect.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#6
Quote by Jet Penguin
The IVm chord is a classic example of modal interchange.

Basically, we're using a chord from C minor in C major for effect.

Please another youtube example at the time of modal interchange ?
#7
If you listen to "Creep" by Radiohead (can be found in the song examples in my last post), it also has that IV-iv chord change. It's kind of a cliche.

Yeah, it's just modal interchange. You could see the Fm as being "borrowed" from the parallel minor (C minor). It's basically mixing parallel major and minor. And that's really common.


And yeah, the chords are correct. Though, I'm not sure if I would call the second chord an Em (0 2 0 0 1 0) or if it's actually some kind of a Cmaj9 chord. Actually, to me it sounds like she isn't even playing the low E string. Now that I listen to the chord, it actually sounds like a G/B chord with the two highest strings as some kind of a pedal point/non-resolved suspension.
Quote by AlanHB
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#8
Quote by MaggaraMarine
If you listen to "Creep" by Radiohead (can be found in the song examples in my last post), it also has that IV-iv chord change. It's kind of a cliche.

chord change YES. But can we say that it is a cadence? (cadence means at the end of a music phrase or at the end of the song). In all the examples I think that chord change that ''looks like'' defective cadence is in the middle of the music phrase - not at the end.
My question from the begining of the thread was if there are in modern music such defective cadences , too.
I am searching for such a cadence in modern western music.
By the way how would you call that chord change?
#9
The phrase doesn't end there, though, so it's not fair to call it a cadence, which by definition describes the ending of a phrase.

It's a form of plagal cadence, regardless, IV/iv-I.

And we already answered. Modal interchange, borrowed chords from the parallel key.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#10
Cadences in the classical sense (a set of harmonic closes with formulaic voiceleading that end phrases) aren't really that prevalent in modern music. For most modern purposes an authentic cadence is the same as a V-I progression, a plagal cadence is the same as a IV-I progression, and a deceptive cadence is the same as a V-VI progression.
#11
TS

I answered your question about song examples of modal interchange, and "Creep" is a good example of that. My answer had nothing to do with cadences. How would I call that chord change? Well, I don't know if there's a name for it. But the minor iv chord comes from the parallel minor, and borrowing from the parallel key is called "modal interchange".

Also, my post has many examples of deceptive cadences. As I said, one of the most common progressions in pop music ends with a deceptive cadence.

But you may not find that many actual cadences in modern pop. It's not that much based on the traditional "start with the I chord, end with a V-I". Of course there are plenty of pop songs that also have basic cadences and all that, but there's a lot of other kind of stuff too. A lot of modern pop music seems to emphasize the IV or the ii chord (or VI or iv in minor). And in that kind of songs cadences are pretty much non-existent. They usually have a repeating (approximately) four chord progression that stays the same throughout the song.

For example take something like "Teenage Dream". It's basically a IV-V vamp and there are no I chords anywhere in the song. Same thing happens in "Call Me Maybe", even though it's basically vi-IV-I-V. The vi and I chords just don't get much emphasis. Both of those songs are basically a non-resolved IV-V vamp.

So cadences aren't necessarily that important in modern pop music. Usually the progression does have the I chord somewhere, but it doesn't start or end the progression, it's in the middle of the progression which makes the resolution a lot less obvious.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 3, 2016,
#12
There must be loads of songs in major keys where V goes to VI instead of I, but all I can think of is the Beatles "Not a Second Time" - which was apparently the origin of William Mann's notorious identification of "aeolian cadences" in their music (a phrase which John Lennon said sounded "like exotic birds").
The chord sequence is Am - Bm - D7 - Em, so the question is: is that a deceptive cadence in G major, or an aeolian cadence in E minor?

Checking out Dominic Pedler's book, he spots a similar moment in "Do You Want to Know a Secret", where a B7 goes to C#m instead of E; and another in "Octopus's Garden" (same key) where an A-B move also goes to C#m, before the repeat of the A-B leads to E.

He suggests they would heard the idea in their early covers, such as "Sheik of Araby" (key of C, G goes to Am at one point) and "The Honeymoon Song" (key E, G#m-F#m leads to C#m - not sure this counts myself, but it does have a similar sound).
#13
Quote by jongtr
There must be loads of songs in major keys where V goes to VI instead of I, but all I can think of is the Beatles "Not a Second Time" - which was apparently the origin of William Mann's notorious identification of "aeolian cadences" in their music (a phrase which John Lennon said sounded "like exotic birds").
The chord sequence is Am - Bm - D7 - Em, so the question is: is that a deceptive cadence in G major, or an aeolian cadence in E minor?

Really the end of the phrase” No no no, not a second time’’ is in Em (vi) instead of G(I). Though Ι have read arguments about it.
You have opened new paths of knowledge by your posting.
Reading the Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_a_Second_Time has guided me to many more relative important posts
I hope "Not a Second Time" is not unique in defective cadence
Thanks everybody
#14
Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#15
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.

Is it easy for you for a detailed example?
Thanks
#16
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Clearly, none of you listen to enough Contemporary Christian Music

Besides going first inversion on the tonic, the easiest way to make a tag is to use a deceptive cadence.

I listen to exactly enough contemporary Christian music.
#17
Ending chorus tag

Second and third cadences in each verse

Many times V-IV, sometimes V-vi

Non-CCM:
https://vimeo.com/140506935
pre-chorus Ab-Cm-Eb-Bb x2 to chorus Fm

@JRF: enough to hear many deceptive cadences and IAC's, to clarify, not enough for your lack of care for the genre (or belief, for that matter, if you really want to go there, but I don't think you do).
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Apr 3, 2016,
#19
My understanding (and teaching) of a Deceptive Cadence is when the V goes to anything but I

And I tend to view any situation when a V goes directly to IV and then I it's simply a downward leading Cadence.

I can see the argument that its Deceptive then Plagal, and I get that, but functionally I see it as a roundabout V-I.

Totally agree with Neo on the point of Christian music...especially Contemporary Worship - where the songs can tend to Vamp from V to IV to V indefinitely, extending the song, and building up that anticipated release when it finally goes to I.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 4, 2016,
#21
Quote by stefanos604

I hope "Not a Second Time" is not unique in defective cadence
"deceptive".
A matter of opinion whether it's "defective" or not.
#22
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I listen to exactly enough contemporary Christian music.
I'm guessing that's roughly the same amount I listen to.
#24
Quote by jongtr at #33909917
"deceptive".
A matter of opinion whether it's "defective" or not.

He was specifically referencing some type of harmonic progression in the middle of the phrase as opposed to the end, so it's not a cadence as we know it. "Defective" for all intents and purposes, I suppose.

Quote by Sean0913 at #33909723
My understanding (and teaching) of a Deceptive Cadence is when the V goes to anything but I

And I tend to view any situation when a V goes directly to IV and then I it's simply a downward leading Cadence.

I can see the argument that its Deceptive then Plagal, and I get that, but functionally I see it as a roundabout V-I.

The "Oceans" song I linked has progression:
G / / / | D / / / | A / / / | / / / / :||(x3)
G / / / | / / A / | Bm / / / | ....


The prolongation of the A as opposed to the G or the D puts it more as a half-cadence that wants to resolve to the tonic, but doesn't 1) until two measures later and 2) for an extended amount of time to be the focus of the section. It's an exceptionally weak V-IV-I if you really want to interpret it that way (as a roundabout V-I), but I'd rather interpret it as IV-V (x3) IV-V-vi, because the D major section really has little harmonic weight.

Also, re: vamping - not just IV-V, also ...V-vi (redo section) ...V-I. Also, ending the song away from tonic allows for transitions between songs, haha

Quote by stefanos604 at #33909751
Please is it possible to mark the exact time of the cadences on the video?
thanks

"Tänk Dig" only
Pre-chorus starts at 0:37.
First Bb at 0:47, goes back to Ab
Second Bb at 0:58, goes to Fm (new section) at 1:02

==> in this case, Bb-Fm is kind of a plagal cadence in Fm (temporary tonicization of ii), the Bb-Ab is more in line with what you want.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#26
Quote by NeoMvsEu
He was specifically referencing some type of harmonic progression in the middle of the phrase as opposed to the end, so it's not a cadence as we know it. "Defective" for all intents and purposes, I suppose.


The "Oceans" song I linked has progression:
G / / / | D / / / | A / / / | / / / / :||(x3)
G / / / | / / A / | Bm / / / | ....


The prolongation of the A as opposed to the G or the D puts it more as a half-cadence that wants to resolve to the tonic, but doesn't 1) until two measures later and 2) for an extended amount of time to be the focus of the section. It's an exceptionally weak V-IV-I if you really want to interpret it that way (as a roundabout V-I), but I'd rather interpret it as IV-V (x3) IV-V-vi, because the D major section really has little harmonic weight.


Hmmm, first Glance I'm seeing a IV I V in D and then a IV V vi (vi, which, liberally speaking I view as a functional archetype of the I)

DF#A
(B)DF#A (m7) or (D6)


But I don't see the thing I described, which would have been V IV I - A G to D a more or less downward leading cadence from V to I.

Best,

Sean
#27
You could view the V IV I as a "downward leading cadence from V to I" but if the progression is otherwise functional then I'm pretty sure it is still a deceptive cadence even if it eventually resolves to the I chord.
(The reason being that the functional harmony sets up a heightened tension on the V chord that is best resolved (and is traditionally expected to resolve to the I) which then moves to a difference chord thwarting that traditional expectation thus the listener's expectations are deceived.)

For me the term "interrupted" cadence feels more appropriate even though I think traditionally the terms interrupted and deceptive may actually be interchangeable.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

[EDIT]
Wait a minute...thinking about it some more maybe a V-IV-I isn't an interrupted or deceptive cadence. In that case wouldn't IV-I technically be the cadence. Is the V still part of the cadence if it's not the final resolution to close the phrase or section of music??

My head hurts. I'm going back to sleep.
Si
#28
V-IV-I is a special case subdominant prolongation where the V chord is acting as an elaborative chord (in church music and the common practice both the V and IV chord almost always appear in first inversion). In other words, it's a I-IV-I progression with a V chord inserted in between the I and IV that doesn't act as a dominant. Obviously it's hugely common in modern music like rock and stuff to the point it's not really a special case of anything. It's actually modal in nature

Interrupted and deceptive cadences are the same thing. Technically it can be cadencing on anything other than the tonic although it is by far most common to see a resolution to VI.
#29
Quote by 20Tigers
You could view the V IV I as a "downward leading cadence from V to I" but if the progression is otherwise functional then I'm pretty sure it is still a deceptive cadence even if it eventually resolves to the I chord.
(The reason being that the functional harmony sets up a heightened tension on the V chord that is best resolved (and is traditionally expected to resolve to the I) which then moves to a difference chord thwarting that traditional expectation thus the listener's expectations are deceived.)

For me the term "interrupted" cadence feels more appropriate even though I think traditionally the terms interrupted and deceptive may actually be interchangeable.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

[EDIT]
Wait a minute...thinking about it some more maybe a V-IV-I isn't an interrupted or deceptive cadence. In that case wouldn't IV-I technically be the cadence. Is the V still part of the cadence if it's not the final resolution to close the phrase or section of music??

My head hurts. I'm going back to sleep.


See, that's why I'm not dogmatic about this, nor do I insist upon it; it's just the way I conceptualize it.

I could look at it as Deceptive on the V-VI and then Plagal, VI-I but I ask myself was it really Plagal, in feel, if I started anticipating it at the V, and the VI just extended that feeling like a V to I downwards leading cadence.

I see your point completely, but, most of the time I just look at it as a downward leading meandering V I "cadence", especially in root position...again more a personal way I approach it.

Best,

Sean
#32
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
V-IV-I is a special case subdominant prolongation where the V chord is acting as an elaborative chord (in church music and the common practice both the V and IV chord almost always appear in first inversion). In other words, it's a I-IV-I progression with a V chord inserted in between the I and IV that doesn't act as a dominant. Obviously it's hugely common in modern music like rock and stuff to the point it's not really a special case of anything. It's actually modal in nature

Interrupted and deceptive cadences are the same thing. Technically it can be cadencing on anything other than the tonic although it is by far most common to see a resolution to VI.

OK that makes sense, thanks.
Quote by Sean0913
See, that's why I'm not dogmatic about this, nor do I insist upon it; it's just the way I conceptualize it.

I could look at it as Deceptive on the V-VI and then Plagal, VI-I but I ask myself was it really Plagal, in feel, if I started anticipating it at the V, and the VI just extended that feeling like a V to I downwards leading cadence.

I see your point completely, but, most of the time I just look at it as a downward leading meandering V I "cadence", especially in root position...again more a personal way I approach it.
Yeah I got what you were doing, I was just discussing the idea. I always considered it an "interrupted" cadence on account of yeah it gets to the point eventually but is interrupted along the way.

Then started questioning and double guessing myself in regard to the technicalities of it all.

But yeah I get what you were saying and agree that there is a lot of stuff that I think a bit of flexibility can go a long way when you're applying theory developed for classical music to modern rock/pop.
Si
#34
I sort of vaguely understand what's being discussed here.

But first, I hope God doesn't have perfect pitch, because if he (?) does, that woman in the video is going straight to hell for her singing.

Anyway, here's two fairly well known songs.

First, the chorus from "Because the Night"

Bm G A
Because the night belongs to lovers.
Bm G A Bm , <<I can't hear that Bm as being anything other than D major!
Because the night belongs to lust.
G A
Because the night belongs to lovers.
Bm G A Bm << Nor that one!
Because the night belongs to us.

So, me goes back to "I" every other line...

And this show tune , ("show tune", I know, right)

Am Em
Mariah Mariah

F G7 C <<< I can't for the life of me hear that as resolving to anything but Am!
They call the wind Mariah


So, first song I ignore the "deceptive cadence". The second one, I embrace it.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 6, 2016,
#35
Quote by jongtr
And what did you make of them?

Dominic Pedler considers the "Aeolian cadence" moment to occur at the end of this line: (Am) "You hurt me then. You're back again. No/(Bm) no no/(D7) not a second time"/(Em). Pedler writes: "We are expecting the D7 chord, the dominant in the key of G, to return to the G major tonic". However, in replacing it with an Em chord supporting an isolated E note on "time", we have an interrupted cadence or dominant-to-relative sub-minor (V7 to vi) shift. The major key of the song is G, but it appears to resolve on the Em (vi) chord.(from wikipedia).

Coming back to my first posting :
''Can such rules of Classical be adapted to modern Western Music? I mean, as an amateur of just only folk and modern music, what is the point of theoretically learning rules if then they cannot be implemented?''
Now ,though I have learnt a lot (e.g the deceptive in the middle of a phrace , is a kind of indirect way to go to tonic....) , I am not sure if my question has been answered as regard the TODAY use of deseptive cadence (at the end of a phrase or song )on modern music
#36
Quote by Captaincranky at #33913265
I sort of vaguely understand what's being discussed here.

But first, I hope God doesn't have perfect pitch, because if he (?) does, that woman in the video is going straight to hell for her singing.
God wouldn't have human expectations.
Anyway, here's two fairly well known songs.

First, the chorus from "Because the Night"

Bm      G                    A
Because the night belongs to lovers.
Bm G A Bm , [B]<<I can't hear that Bm as being anything other than D major![/B]
Because the night belongs to lust.
G A
Because the night belongs to lovers.
Bm G A Bm [B]<< Nor that one![/B]
Because the night belongs to us.
This isn't the same thing. The song is in B minor, not D major. It's the classic bVI-bVII-i rock cadence that looks like a deceptive cadence.

So, me goes back to "I" every other line...

And this show tune , ("show tune", I know, right)

Am      Em
Mariah Mariah

F G7 C [B]<<< I can't for the life of me hear that as resolving to anything but Am![/B]
They call the wind Mariah

This isn't deceptive, though. This is a perfect authentic cadence. Deceptive is V-anything but I/i.

However, the song does start off the tonic chord.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#37
Quote by NeoMvsEu
God wouldn't have human expectations.
This isn't the same thing. The song ("Because the Night"), is in B minor, not D major. It's the classic bVI-bVII-i rock cadence that looks like a deceptive cadence....[ ]...
As I tried to explain, this has a simple quirk of the chord progression, opposed to the melody resolution, which only seems to annoy me, and me alone.

The chord progression in the chorus resolves to Bm, but the melody resolves to D (major). I verified this on the sheet music which places the melody note on D, while the supposedly tonic chord is Bm.

I am a simple man, sometimes requiring simple solutions. Therefore with D as the melody note, I expect D major as the resolution....

Obviously, you needn't humor me.....

And that woman is still at least going to "heck" for her singing.....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 6, 2016,
#38
Quote by Captaincranky
I sort of vaguely understand what's being discussed here.

But first, I hope God doesn't have perfect pitch, because if he (?) does, that woman in the video is going straight to hell for her singing. :


I think it doesn't matter if her singing is bad or good if that she is teaching is perfect and her saying is correct. Isn’t it?
#39
Quote by stefanos604
I think it doesn't matter if her singing is bad or good if that she is teaching is perfect and her saying is correct. Isn’t it?
And I think, whether or not you have the ability to access or interpret what I say as simple sarcasm or humor, you should be allowed to rebut it nonetheless.....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Apr 6, 2016,
#40
Quote by Captaincranky at #33913900
As I tried to explain, this has a simple quirk of the chord progression, opposed to the melody resolution, which only seems to annoy me, and me alone.

The chord progression in the chorus resolves to Bm, but the melody resolves to D (major). I verified this on the sheet music which places the melody note on D, while the supposedly tonic chord is Bm.

I am a simple man, sometimes requiring simple solutions. Therefore with D as the melody note, I expect D major as the resolution....

Obviously, you needn't humor me.....

And that woman is still at least going to "heck" for her singing.....

D is a note in the B minor chord? Just because the melody can be written in a key signature with 2 sharps does not automatically make it D major. B minor is the relative minor and is the key for the entire piece, melody and harmony included.

A-Bm general resolutions

A to B
C# to D
E to D. This is because going up to F# would create parallel fifths.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
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