Page 1 of 2
#1
Hi everyone,

On my last post, Someone tell me that learning guitar by listening to the actual song and analyst it is better than using a tablature.

So, today I want to play Tetris theme (Because it sounds good) and not using any tab but only you tube and I feel like I learn a lot.

I learn new scale even though I don't know what scale I'm plying in I just know that I'm playing a scale. (MMMmMMMm)
#2
I don't believe either are all that great by themselves, it's better if those are used along with something else.

I think learning a song understanding the big picture right from the start ,is the most effective. Seeing how things connect, and understanding the inter-relationships, knowing where things can only be so there's no hunting for an answer.

I think if you learn the Tetris theme, then it's just the Tetris theme. It doesnt give you insight into music. You can't connect the Tetris theme to anything but that....but if you have insight, you see the origin of the Tetris theme, and now when you learn it, you see the big picture, and instead of vast amounts of energy expended for one thing, you have energy for that thing and insight for everything else beyond.

The way you go about it, its a lot of work and it's a Tetris theme. Its abstract. Its good for that, and that alone.

You are the perfect example of what I was talking about earlier when I said that I see people lose so much time, and yet understand so little about what they are doing, as the reward for that.

Best,

Sean
#3
If you rely completely on learning songs from tabs, what are you going to do when you can't find a tab for a song you need to learn? If you don't develop your ear (even just to pick out basic chords and simple melodies) you will eventually find yourself in a difficult situation with no idea what you're doing. Imagine you're in a band and someone starts throwing around song ideas, do you want to be able to jump right in and play along or do you want to stop and ask them what key they're in? Or look on Google for a tab?
Tabs also encourage you to think in numbers rather than notes, chords or keys. No one will take you seriously if you don't know where to play a Db on the fretboard, or what a minor chord sounds like.
#4
well last I checked, we don't listen to music with our eyes. Learning by tabs alone puts you at the mercy of the person who made it, who likely had to hash it out by ear. And judging by the quality I see in most tabs, those guys aren't too good at hearing, either.

It's important to develop your ears. It's hard to use them at first, but with time and focused practice, it will actually become easier and faster to learn songs by ear than by reading tabs.

I play in a wedding band have learned close to 100 songs the last couple months, 99% by ear. Having the aural skills to spot mistakes in a tab, I've found that most contain glaring errors and fail to represent the rhythm. Or they're transposed and capo'd for no reason.
Last edited by cdgraves at Apr 23, 2016,
#5
Quote by derek8520
If you rely completely on learning songs from tabs, what are you going to do when you can't find a tab for a song you need to learn? If you don't develop your ear (even just to pick out basic chords and simple melodies) you will eventually find yourself in a difficult situation with no idea what you're doing. Imagine you're in a band and someone starts throwing around song ideas, do you want to be able to jump right in and play along or do you want to stop and ask them what key they're in? Or look on Google for a tab?
Tabs also encourage you to think in numbers rather than notes, chords or keys. No one will take you seriously if you don't know where to play a Db on the fretboard, or what a minor chord sounds like.


There is a site where you can post a YouTube link to the song and it'll pretty accurately lay out the chord structure with timings https://play.riffstation.com/ So you know, that's what can you do when you get stuck. In a few years I can imagine them discerning individual notes for on the fly tabs.

Personally I prefer to just take a song I know and just solo all over it, I find that easier to discern it's key, what it's doing, where it's going, what I can/can't add to it. That's been more beneficial to me rather than sitting there going 'is this cm7bm7amx2' whatever
You Dont Know Me

I have 10 Anarchy Points - I also have 8 Mythology points!

Peavey Generation EXP Custom White
Yamaha 120S Black
Korg AX5G
Digitech Whammy
Zvex Fuzz Factory
Boss OS2

Quote by mrfinkle213
This man has brains.

Quote by CoreysMonster
Banned for indirect reference.
#6
If you can't hear changes and figure out a song by ear, your ability to interact with other musicians is very limited. If you ever plan to join a band and contribute to the songs or create music on your own you need to be able to translate what you hear with your ears or imagine in your own mind into chords and leads. There is no way around it.

If you just want to play for your own personal satisfaction then you can just play tabs and enjoy. If you want to create new music or interact with others and play live you need to be able to play right "off the top of your head". No one can write a tab of what's in your head and no band is going to create tabs for you to play along to. I compare tabs to training wheels on a bike. They have to come off at some point.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Apr 26, 2016,
#7
Quote by sosxradar
Hi everyone,

On my last post, Someone tell me that learning guitar by listening to the actual song and analyst it is better than using a tablature.

So, today I want to play Tetris theme (Because it sounds good) and not using any tab but only you tube and I feel like I learn a lot.

I learn new scale even though I don't know what scale I'm plying in I just know that I'm playing a scale. (MMMmMMMm)


Learning by listening is much more beneficial generally but it requires much more work and it is too time consuming a method to be solely relied on. My advice to newer players is to spend a lot of time on it, but still use tab and you tube videos for other material. Slower material is better for learning by ear, especially at the start.
#8
Tabs are more efficient but learning by ear is a good skill.

Quote by cdgraves
well last I checked, we don't listen to music with our eyes. Learning by tabs alone puts you at the mercy of the person who made it, who likely had to hash it out by ear. And judging by the quality I see in most tabs, those guys aren't too good at hearing, either.

It's important to develop your ears. It's hard to use them at first, but with time and focused practice, it will actually become easier and faster to learn songs by ear than by reading tabs.

I play in a wedding band have learned close to 100 songs the last couple months, 99% by ear. Having the aural skills to spot mistakes in a tab, I've found that most contain glaring errors and fail to represent the rhythm. Or they're transposed and capo'd for no reason.


This is highly anecdotal and by no means represents all experiences. Many of the tabs on this sight are fairly accurate and if there are mistakes, it is easy enough to fix them with your own ears, especially if your ears are goid enough to slowly figure out the song by yourself. Why spend time learning everything by ear when somebody else has already done it for you?

Also for many guitar standards and songs by famous bands, there are official tab books available that are almost always mistake free or very close.

Not everyone plays pop/rock tunes that can easily be figured out just by listening as well. A lot of things that require unorthodox fingerings in order to flow or that are technically very complicated may not be worth the effort to figure out when there are already accurate tabs.

But no, keep advicing people to not use an available resource.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#9
Quote by theogonia777
Tabs are more efficient but learning by ear is a good skill.


This is highly anecdotal and by no means represents all experiences.


Would you like to name some admirable musicians who lack the ability to understand music by ear?

Also for many guitar standards and songs by famous bands, there are official tab books available that are almost always mistake free or very close.

Listening is cheaper than buying a book, and there aren't published transcriptions of every version of a song a person might want to learn.

Not everyone plays pop/rock tunes that can easily be figured out just by listening as well. A lot of things that require unorthodox fingerings in order to flow or that are technically very complicated may not be worth the effort to figure out when there are already accurate tabs.

That's why it's a skill that requires time and practice to develop. I have never said that a person should forsake written sources entirely and hope their ear develops quickly enough. I still have to look things up once in a while, and have limits as to complexity and difficulty.

I don't see where you think that I've said people should forsake all resources but their ears. I suspect you're more intent on wedging open a disagreement than actually addressing the point I made, which I feel was pretty clearly that a musician cannot rely entirely on second hand written sources and ought to develop their ears. I'm very unclear what about that you disagree with, unless you really mean to say that musicians are better for lacking aural skills.
Last edited by cdgraves at Apr 25, 2016,
#10
Your whole post read more or less, "well, tabs aren't good because x, y, z, and all the other letters of the alphabet." Sure sounds like you're saying not to use them.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#11
Quote by reverb66
Learning by listening is much more beneficial generally but it requires much more work and it is too time consuming a method to be solely relied on.


It's only like that at the start. As you gain more experience learning songs by ear, you can learn and integrate the songs much faster than locating a good tab and working off that.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#12
Quote by theogonia777
Your whole post read more or less, "well, tabs aren't good because x, y, z, and all the other letters of the alphabet." Sure sounds like you're saying not to use them.


I said they put you at the mercy of whoever made them, which is entirely true, and I was quite clear that developing good ears takes time. I didn't exactly comment at length.

It seems to me you're either trying to wedge open some nonexistent disagreement, or are simply determined to misread anything I post.
#13
if you're learning by tabs, you're missing out on understanding and learning the roles of the other instruments

memorization is a lot easier when you can relate to the singer and other instruments

tone is another important factor. you can tell if someone learned something by actually spending time and understanding the song

really there's pretty much no reason to use tabs if you have the time to work it out for yourself. sheet music is a healthy middle ground that gives enough information and can be learned without listening to the actual song, but they're not readily available for guitar


have you ever met somebody who was good at tests and had no common sense? that's how tabs train you to be. you can regurgitate, but not much else. they're not an optimal learning tool.

that's not to say they're the devil or anything, but there aren't a whole lot of reasons to use them once you reach a point where you are technically proficient enough at the instrument to learn by ear
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Last edited by Hail at Apr 26, 2016,
#14
If you can sing back the Tetris melody accurately, either out loud or in your head, then you can play it. This goes for anything.

If your ears "get it", they'll tell your fingers what to do. But it doesn't work the other way around.
#15
Next month I will have worked with my current musical partner in various band-duo combinations for 20 years. In that time we have learned about 300 songs (we use a lot of midi so I have the files for each one). I can't possibly memorize 300 songs but I don't have to. I consider myself a slightly above average guitar player and below average keyboard player but the one thing I am very good at is hearing chord changes accurately. If I am familiar with the song and the arrangement and know what key it's played in, I can get through it pretty well with one or two attempts.

I can do this because over many years I had to. When I started playing, there were no tabs, no YouTube and no one else to work it out for me. I had to get a record (yes, vinyl) and play it over and over till I learned by trial and error. Over a long period of time and application of a little basic chord theory, it got easier and easier to do. The same with solos. Once you have taken the time to work it out yourself you begin to see patterns and recognize that it's usually based on a familiar scale. It takes time and effort and you will get frustrated often but the payoff is tremendous. Tabs are a nice way to start but hopefully you end up not needing them.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Apr 26, 2016,
#16
Quote by cdgraves
I said they put you at the mercy of whoever made them, which is entirely true,


You're not really "at [their] mercy" or anything. You pick up the tab, try it out, and see how it compares to the actual recording. Even if the tab is only 50% correct, that's only 50 percent that you have to figure out yourself. If the tab is complete garbage, you move on. If you can't tell an accurate tab from a bad one, that's your own fault. If you refuse to take the parts that are correct because some parts are inaccurate rather than just learning what is correct and figuring out what isn't, then that's your own fault.

Even with great ears it can take some time to figure out stuff. Maybe in your wedding cover band it's easy enough to figure out chord changes, but that's all incredibly simple stuff. It's completely different from trying to tackle something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMfGmy715xE

Now, there are a few tabs uploaded to this website, such as this one that has five 5 star ratings.

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brain_drill/apocalyptic_feasting_ver3_guitar_pro_1416726id_11092013date.htm

Using your ears just to listen to that preview, it sounds pretty accurate on an initial listen. More careful listening might reveal some mistakes, but probably not many. Again, 75% of the work has been done for you. Why not take advantage of this?

Now check out these tabs:

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/RingsofSaturn7/contributions/tabs/

All completely accurate. Why? Because it's the guitarist from the band tabbing his own songs. Not only that, but a lot of bands do instructional videos of their songs and are often willing to provide you with the tablature if ask nicely.

You have to take responsibility for your own learning. If you can't do that for yourself, you have nobody to blame but yourself. I don't see why you would ignore a resource because you think it might not be 100% correct.

When you were in high school, if a book had a couple of wrong facts, would you toss the correct facts because of it? If you did research that way, then you're not gonna get anywhere.

It seems to me you're either trying to wedge open some nonexistent disagreement, or are simply determined to misread anything I post.


It seems to me like you're just being stubborn by being determined to reject something for an illogical reason ("well, it might be wrong and, while I claim to be capable of learning the whole thing from scratch, I can't be bothered to piece together the 10% that is wrong in the tab, so I might as well just ignore all of it").
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Apr 26, 2016,
#17
Quote by theogonia777
You're not really "at [their] mercy" or anything. You pick up the tab, try it out, and see how it compares to the actual recording. Even if the tab is only 50% correct, that's only 50 percent that you have to figure out yourself. If the tab is complete garbage, you move on. If you can't tell an accurate tab from a bad one, that's your own fault. If you refuse to take the parts that are correct because some parts are inaccurate rather than just learning what is correct and figuring out what isn't, then that's your own fault.

Even with great ears it can take some time to figure out stuff. Maybe in your wedding cover band it's easy enough to figure out chord changes, but that's all incredibly simple stuff. It's completely different from trying to tackle something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMfGmy715xE

Now, there are a few tabs uploaded to this website, such as this one that has five 5 star ratings.

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/brain_drill/apocalyptic_feasting_ver3_guitar_pro_1416726id_11092013date.htm

Using your ears just to listen to that preview, it sounds pretty accurate on an initial listen. More careful listening might reveal some mistakes, but probably not many. Again, 75% of the work has been done for you. Why not take advantage of this?

Now check out these tabs:

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/RingsofSaturn7/contributions/tabs/

All completely accurate. Why? Because it's the guitarist from the band tabbing his own songs. Not only that, but a lot of bands do instructional videos of their songs and are often willing to provide you with the tablature if ask nicely.

You have to take responsibility for your own learning. If you can't do that for yourself, you have nobody to blame but yourself. I don't see why you would ignore a resource because you think it might not be 100% correct.

When you were in high school, if a book had a couple of wrong facts, would you toss the correct facts because of it? If you did research that way, then you're not gonna get anywhere.


It seems to me like you're just being stubborn by being determined to reject something for an illogical reason ("well, it might be wrong and, while I claim to be capable of learning the whole thing from scratch, I can't be bothered to piece together the 10% that is wrong in the tab, so I might as well just ignore all of it").


i think the issue here is what your priority is. in the interest of time, whatever gets the job done...but you shouldn't use tabs as a crutch if you haven't already got a solid foundation down. in terms of what you can extract from the music, you're just going to get more out of learning by ear, so if you have time it will usually be the better method.

obviously if you're going into a cover band and need to learn 40 songs in a couple weeks, it doesn't matter how you do it as long as it gets done, but if you don't already have an ear and a solid technique it's just going to sound forced no matter how well you can regurgitate the tab most of the time.

like i said earlier, it's more than just the notes being played. there are intricacies of the music you miss out on.

plus extreme metal is an exception cause it's not music
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#18
Quote by Hail
i think the issue here is what your priority is. in the interest of time, whatever gets the job done...but you shouldn't use tabs as a crutch if you haven't already got a solid foundation down. in terms of what you can extract from the music, you're just going to get more out of learning by ear, so if you have time it will usually be the better method


But if you don't. cdgraves might not have explicitly said it here, but he explicitly stated every time a topic related to tablature comes up just how worthless he thinks tablature is. Somehow I doubt that his position has changed.

obviously if you're going into a cover band and need to learn 40 songs in a couple weeks, it doesn't matter how you do it as long as it gets done, but if you don't already have an ear and a solid technique it's just going to sound forced no matter how well you can regurgitate the tab most of the time.


If you're playing in a cover band learning 40 songs, you would hopefully have solid enough technique already that you can pick up on]small details. And chances are that if you're learning 40 songs in a couple of weeks for a cover band, you're probably not learning anything super elaborate note-for-note anyway.

like i said earlier, it's more than just the notes being played. there are intricacies of the music you miss out on.


Well obviously.

plus extreme metal is an exception cause it's not music


but they just around noodle on 8 strings basses

i thought that you loved that
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#19
@theogonia777

We are talking about the Tetris theme here, not death metal...

Yeah, I agree that it depends on what you want to learn. But a lot of beginner players only play what the tab says and they don't use their ears at all. When learning simple beginner songs, I think ears are more efficient. I find it easier to memorize something if I learn it by ear and never become dependent on notation/tab.


But I agree with cdgraves. You sound like you are disagreeing with him just for the sake of it. I don't even see your posts contradicting each other.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#20
Quote by MaggaraMarine
@theogonia777

We are talking about the Tetris theme here, not death metal...


Nobody was talking about wedding cover bands either.

Yeah, I agree that it depends on what you want to learn. But a lot of beginner players only play what the tab says and they don't use their ears at all.


Beginner players probably haven't developed their ears enough to learn by ear. It will take an impractical amount of time and they will probably learn the song incorrectly.

When learning simple beginner songs, I think ears are more efficient. I find it easier to memorize something if I learn it by ear and never become dependent on notation/tab.


After developing your ears, sure. But not before you develop them.

But I agree with cdgraves. You sound like you are disagreeing with him just for the sake of it. I don't even see your posts contradicting each other.


I know his opinion on the subject and I disagree with any opinion that any resource is completely worthless. Like I said, he didn't explicitly state it here, but he has in the past.

I don't disagree with him for the sake of it. I disagree with him because I genuinely disagree with the majority of stuff he says.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Apr 26, 2016,
#21
Quote by cdgraves
It seems to me you're either trying to wedge open some nonexistent disagreement, or are simply determined to misread anything I post.


I'm with theogonia here, I read your post and got the same negativity.

Now perhaps you don't actually feel as negative toward tab as has been presented, but I'd be hard pressed to know that from your posting.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#22
Quote by theogonia777
Beginner players probably haven't developed their ears enough to learn by ear. It will take an impractical amount of time and they will probably learn the song

Only if they're tone deaf. Then there's a problem.

But otherwise working out simple single note melodies like the one in question are perfect exercises for beginners ear training.
#23
Quote by mdc
Only if they're tone deaf. Then there's a problem.

But otherwise working out simple single note melodies like the one in question are perfect exercises for beginners ear training.


And how do you figure that? Most beginners are not very capable when it comes to that kind of thing. When was the first time that you figured out how to play something by ewr? What was it? How long had you been playing for (including other instruments)? Not to mention the fact that not everything that a beginner learns will be a simple melody.

I think the problem is that people don't really remember when they were beginners and how unskilled they really are and as a result tend to overestimate what beginners can do. Have you ever tried the left handed guitar trick?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
Last edited by theogonia777 at Apr 26, 2016,
#24
I think it all comes down to what you want to achieve. If you just want to learn songs and don't have that great ears yet, of course use tabs. But if you want to improve your ears, then don't use tabs. Start with simple melodies. If you never do it, you won't learn to do it.

My suggestion is, learn simple songs by ear and more challenging songs with the help of tabs/notation. You can use certain songs as "ear training songs".
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#25
Unless you want me to, I won't bore you with the "how it all started" thing. But it was from the word go. I used to draw out six lines by hand as I didn't have tab paper. At this point I should point out that writing and working out the fret numbers yourself is very different to copying tab that someone else had done for you.

Needless to say I developed a good ability at pressing the pause and rewind buttons. Amazingly the CD player hasn't suffered RSI!!

It was a cd called classical guitar moods. Wasn't mine. Probably my mums for her Pilates class. Yeah, seriously.

Technique wise, I didn't know how to pick. All I was concerned about was getting those melodies right.

Assuming I'm not a lefty, eh? Yes I have tried, and I appreciate how difficult it is for beginners.

But I'm glad l learnt by ear, because I noticed that the more I persevered the easier it became to assimilate the notes in larger chunks. Letters turned to words, words turned to sentences.

Now I can gladly say j have the ability to transcribe sax melodies like this. Particularly the phrases at 1:00 and 1:09.

If you'd like the tab for it, then I'll happily oblige

http://youtu.be/zHMk3jpiM08
#26
Quote by theogonia777
I don't disagree with him for the sake of it. I disagree with him because I genuinely disagree with the majority of stuff he says.


And in this case you feel that when tabs are available, you'd be silly not to use them, as using your ear is inefficient.

I understand your viewpoint, but why do you need to disagree with cdgraves to do it?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#27
I think at very first tab might be a bit useful, but I don't think you can, or should, ever really use tab without using your ear also. Tabs are often wrong, and to get the timing right, you need to hear it anyway.

But after that, if your aim is learning and understanding music, and not just being able to play a given song, really what you want, imo, is listening to the song, and chord names/roman numerals, and tying that into functional harmony. Give a man a fish, and feed him for a day, teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime, sort of thing.
#28
Quote by AlanHB
And in this case you feel that when tabs are available, you'd be silly not to use them, as using your ear is inefficient.

I understand your viewpoint, but why do you need to disagree with cdgraves to do it?


I'm not sure that understand the question. I don't agree with him since his view completely contradicts my own so I can't agree with him. So if I don't agree with him I therefore disagree with him.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#29
Quote by theogonia777
I'm not sure that understand the question. I don't agree with him since his view completely contradicts my own so I can't agree with him. So if I don't agree with him I therefore disagree with him.


I think that what he is saying is, you can state your opinion without being confrontational with someone.

This was your original post directed at cdgraves.

Quote by theogonia777
Tabs are more efficient but learning by ear is a good skill.


This is highly anecdotal and by no means represents all experiences. Many of the tabs on this sight are fairly accurate and if there are mistakes, it is easy enough to fix them with your own ears, especially if your ears are goid enough to slowly figure out the song by yourself. Why spend time learning everything by ear when somebody else has already done it for you?

Also for many guitar standards and songs by famous bands, there are official tab books available that are almost always mistake free or very close.

Not everyone plays pop/rock tunes that can easily be figured out just by listening as well. A lot of things that require unorthodox fingerings in order to flow or that are technically very complicated may not be worth the effort to figure out when there are already accurate tabs.

But no, keep advicing people to not use an available resource.


I think for me, it's only really that last line with the rolleyes, that causes me to roll eyes. Except for the fact that you often refer to pop/rock and people that like, or play that sort of thing in a derogatory way, for some reason, so that comment irritated me slightly also because it came from you, and that made me think you meant it in a derogatory way, but otherwise it could be something someone might think or say without malice, so that's kind of a grey area.

But to answer your question, and I think OP did mention it, learning by ear is very fast when you get good at it. Faster than using tabs, especially since you need to fact check them, and get the music out for the rhythmic information anyway. So, practicing it is not a bad idea.

When you get good enough with your guitar, and at earing stuff out, and at knowing the grips, and stuff like that, even the more complex pieces are not so bad to ear out. There are a couple of ways to play things on guitar, but not usually more than 2 or 3, and you can often enough tell what you need to do for the more difficult fingerings, because there's only really one way to get that sound specifically. These pieces are also likely to have a poor fidelity rate though as well, because people making tabs are generally not the most highly skilled players in the world, so they would prefer to tab out something similar and easier, than the actual correct fingering. Pop/rock tunes can also be difficult in that sense as well, because the specific voicings do make a difference. For me, I'm a bit all over the place, so for those types of songs, I care more about the chord structure, since I'm going to do my own things through it anyway, but if you want to learn the actual guitar part to a specific song, the fingering can be crucially specific, and that is often lost by people that write tabs. That was my experience with them, anyway. Maybe it's different now, and they've improved slightly, but it's still faster for me to ear it out.

For my money, maybe at first tabs are a good thing to get you started, since physically playing the stuff is hard enough without having to figure it out, but once I reached a certain level, there's no way I would ever use tabs. It doesn't matter to me what the style of music is.

See, I disagree with you. I have an opinion that differs from yours, but I didn't leave you some snarky remark, or attack you in any way. If everybody agreed on everything, there wouldn't be much point in discussing anything. But there is a difference between disagreeing with someone, and sharing your different point of view, or opinion, and trying to belittle them, or being confrontational with them. I think that was the point being made.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Apr 26, 2016,
#30
Developing one's ears is not a before/after thing. It's not like you can rely 100% on written sources, do some ear training for a week, and then come back and do everything by ear. You have to challenge yourself and focus on the skill. That necessarily means learning music without a visual aide at some point. It is a gradual process, but the more you rely on your own abilities, the better they become, and the less you have to use other sources.

If I haven't been clear, I'm not telling anyone to throw away all their tabs and charts. Just use your ears before you go to a tab, challenge your abilities, and trust yourself a little bit. Use written sources when you reach your ears' limit, but understand that your limits will expand the more you push them.


Quote by Arby911
I'm with theogonia here, I read your post and got the same negativity.

Now perhaps you don't actually feel as negative toward tab as has been presented, but I'd be hard pressed to know that from your posting.


Well I do feel negatively towards tabs because they can so easily become a crutch. People get reliant on them and never bother to try using their own sense of hearing. They very often contain glaring errors, which many players will never notice because their over-reliance on tabs has prevented them from ever needing to listen closely. The inability to hear a mistake is how errors get into tabs in the first place.

I recall being a beginner with no ears at all. Even after I'd played for several years, my ears didn't develop because I never really put the effort into using them. Once I started to focus on listening, remembering, and working things out without reference to sheet music/tab (or "guess and check" listening), my ears improved dramatically.

Nowadays, most of the songs I learn can be understood and charted in just a few minutes. Many times it would take longer to find a tab in the original key than to work the music by ear.

I think I was clear enough that this is a lengthy process that takes effort. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree that one's own ears are the ideal resources for a musician, but leave it to the internet...
Last edited by cdgraves at Apr 26, 2016,
#31
Quote by kristen
If you're playing in a cover band learning 40 songs, you would hopefully have solid enough technique already that you can pick up on]small details. And chances are that if you're learning 40 songs in a couple of weeks for a cover band, you're probably not learning anything super elaborate note-for-note anyway.

chris broderick used tabs partially to learn megadeth's setlist because he had two weeks to learn over 20 structurally intense songs.

--

honestly, i'd recommend a fresh beginner, a couple of weeks in (basic chords and fretting technique) start learning by ear if they legitimately have the drive. the sooner you break your ear training cherry, the easier it gets.

but people get bored running against walls like that, so they start with tabs, and that's fine, but they are not something to rely on forever


i'm with cdgraves. i got stuck in a rut on tabs, then tried to learn "music theory" with modes and scales, and now i just hate the player i was 5 or 6 years ago. it was terrible and i was a cocky prick wanking with decent technique but no idea what i was actually doing. that's why i advise people to steer clear of that pathway, even though everybody on this site seems to fall into it at some point for the first few years of playing
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#32
Fingrpickingood used the right analogy with the biblical fish reference. When you work things out by ear you learn so much more about music itself because you see how scales and chords interact with each other and slowly you get better and better at figuring it out while improving almost everything about your playing skills. It's a win/win that tabs won't give you.

Another huge benefit of working out a song by yourself is that in most cases you won't need to write it down or notate it in any way. The process of just working it out is usually enough to make you remember it.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
#33
I think that over time and especially if you have the aspirations to become a professional musician learning by ear is better in the long run, but it's also extremely frustrating in the beginning! For me personally it is (or at least was) so frustrating and off-putting that I lost a lot of enthusiasm about even playing the guitar. So basically, yeah it's a super-valuable skill to have, but remember to also learn songs by tabs if you're not getting anywhere for a while with your ears. The song that gets learned and played (even if it's from a tab) is better than the song that doesn't!
Anyways, that's just how I feel about it and I'm sure there are people out there with better backbone than me
You'll Never Walk Alone!
#34
It's sound like a lot of hard working that take much effort to accomplish.

Actually, I learn most of Orion solo by ears then I get stuck and use tab. It's pretty accurate and I just wow at my ability to be able to play such a great fast solo without using tab. However, I don't want to be proud of it.

My purpose was to train my ear and then recognize the note of those sound and finally be able to build chords from every position of the frets board. It's might be sound easy and I know it will cost me the next 3 year to be able to accomplish this.

Tabs might be a great option to learn music. I use it a hint when I get stuck on any level that I've been through.

Additionally, Thank everyone for your opinion.
#35
Quote by sosxradar

Tabs might be a great option to learn music. I use it a hint when I get stuck on any level that I've been through.


this is probably the best way to use tabs. you have to balance immediate answers vs. hard work that gives long term results. if you're really struggling, a tab will definitely guide you in the right direction, but it should almost never be your go-to solution when you want to learn a piece
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#36
Personally, I try to read the tabs while listening to the music while playing guitar.
But when I can't find the tabs, I slow down the music and manually tab out what I can figure out, then go watch a youtube cover and finish the other part of the tab.

In my opinion, I think both help when done together. It's how I learned how to play guitar (no teacher, just my previous music knowledge, plus the music and the tabs)
#37
Imo, the most valuable thing, is too look at the theory of what you're learning. Let's say you ear out
xxx
5xx
x6x
xx7
xxx
xxx

Or tab it out. You will know how to play that thing. If you don't learn that's, for one thing an A chord, and for a second thing that it's, let's say, a V chord, then you haven't made much progress other than knowing how to play that part. Whether you eared it out or not. Earing it out may have helped a bit more, but not a whole lot, unless you've built a definition, imo.

If you learn it with tabs, and you learn the theory anyway, I think that's productive, close to or just as good as earing it out, as far as learning goes. But if you do that enough times, you will find that tabs are slow and earing it out is real easy.

Learning guitar is being able to put ideas in your mind out through the guitar, whether that's songwriting, or improvisation. For a lot of people anyway. It's fine to learn guitar just so you can know the chord names and strum them, or play songs you know, obviously. But as a creative player, you really want to be able to take what's in your mind and through your instrument. Which is a lot like earing stuff out. But the way to do that, really, is not from scratch earing everything out just from experience. It's naming things, and then you hear it, and you know exactly that what you're hearing is Vsus4, and you know what key you're in, and where it is, and that makes it real easy. Otherwise you don't recognize it, just hear it, you can pick out the root, and one note at a time, but that's time consuming, and you might find that it's an A, and that sounds good, but something is a bit off or not quite right, and can't find it. But if you know what a Vsus4 sounds like, and what it is, you hear it, and you know immediately, that's a Vsus4, and you can play it right away. Naming is powerful.


If you just follow tabs, you don't get that. If you just ear stuff out, and ignore theory, you won't get that. If you tab with theory, and ear out with theory, you will get that either way.

But tabs are inconsistent, not really trustworthy, need to be double checked by ear anyway, and don't have any rhythmic information.

I find you're much better off with just a chord sheet, and switch that to roman numerals, and ear out the specific details yourself, at first, but you need to find dependable sources of those also, and if you do that, you will be able to learn how to ear songs out quickly enough.

I can ear out most songs before they are over. I can ear out a lot of songs from memory alone, also. That's why. It's not because I learned a lot of tabs. Not because I learned a lot of songs, really, or solos note for note or anything, but I did some of that, and it is part of it, obviously, and same for earing stuff out. That's not the source of being able to ear out for me now. It's having named concepts in theory, and knowing what they sound like. Knowing about harmony, understanding what the key is. Naming sound relationships.

You can do that a lot of ways. With tabs, without tabs, hybrid ways, whatever. However you do it, that's the powerful thing that matters, imo. However you learn anything, if you don't do that, then you will not really be building that ability. You might recognize stuff like "this part is like that last song I learned" which kind of helps, but not as much as, "oh, that last song I learned arpeggiates the V-I as well".

That simplifies it so much, especially that you could have learned the exact same sequence in the key of C and then key of F, and not realized it, because you were thinking of remembering which frets and strings to play at which times, not which notes or chords of a key you were playing. So, you learned a V-I twice, didn't name that, and didn't realize they were the exact same, because the fingering was different. Not great for learning. Next time you hear a V-I you wouldn't know it's a V-I and you'd be just looking for notes on your fretboard. If you hear it's a V-I, you just need to quickly figure out what key you're in, and you're done.

A Cmajor doesn't always sound like a C major. Music is relative, it's not absolute. The main thing is to name.

"to name is to know." -Socrates.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Apr 30, 2016,
#38
^ this depends on the tabber. I try to put rhythmic information in my tabs and I have faith in my ears.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#39
Quote by NeoMvsEu
^ this depends on the tabber. I try to put rhythmic information in my tabs and I have faith in my ears.


Even standard notation is limited in the accuracy you can map out timing, but generally tabs don't offer any timing information at all. If you add that information, I can only think of doing that in any kind of universal way, is by using a tabs/standard notation hybrid format, which is generally not what people are talking about when they are talking about tabs. I think most people that use tabs couldn't really read that.

You might have faith in your ears, and I don't mean this as specific to you, but I don't. It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust anybody that I don't know specifically.

If you write out your own tabs with timing information to remember or read stuff, then that's great. But the expectation when talking about using tabs, is that there will be no timing information, and that they are written by random people you can't trust to get it right. I'm sure a lot of tabs are correct, and you might find some with timing information. But a few good ones in a sea of poor transcriptions doesn't really help. You need to approach tabs with the expectation that either you will have to fix errors, or you will learn a piece with errors in it, and that you will need to get your timing information elsewhere, imo.

Tabs are tabs, could be useful to people or not. I could get some use out of them if I spent time with them, but it's not worth the effort for me. What's really important though is naming, if you want to be on the creative side of things. If you just want to strum to songs or sight read passages, then it's not such a big deal.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Apr 30, 2016,
#40
Quote by NeoMvsEu
I have faith in my ears.


you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Page 1 of 2