#1
Hey guys!
SO! I have a Schecter Damien with passive EMG-HZ pick ups, and a Schecter Damien elite with aftermarket Seymore Duncan Invader SH-8 pick ups. Weirdest thing in the world the EMGs sound better! I also get alot more sustain with them and zero humming. (Im refferring to static humming, when the distortion is cranked but im not playing anything)
With the aftermarket seymore duncan Invaders its odd because I get humming unless im touching a metal part of the guitar like the volume/tone knobs or the jack. They also sound WAY LESS BEEFY even though I have heavier gauge strings on it.
If you got any thoughts at all I'd love to hear them!
Maybe the guy who installed the pick ups was an amateur?
#2
huh??? two different guitars with different pickups sound different? one sounds better? amazing. lol.

on a serious note, the EMG HZ's are trash. i don't like invaders either.

also you must have a bad ground. does the hum stop when you touch the strings on the guitar with the invaders?. the hum stopping when you touch the metal is because your body is the new ground. quick and easy fix if you know how to solder (which is easy).

WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#3
I would've thought a side by side comparison of what is regarded as a decent pick-up (the invader) and a terrible pick up (the EMG) would've yielded totally different results though.

:p haha they even are TECHNICALLY the same guitar, I'm not even sure the "Elite"version is any different from the original Damien minus the fact that it's newer.

And yea I'm pretty familiar with soldering (Thankfully) But I just need to know which wire is the ground and where you'd suggest rewiring it to. Thanks for the honest response btw!
#4
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiring_resources_guitar_wiring_diagrams.humbucker_wiring_color_codes/

this is an extensive list of the color codes. for pickup wires (just a good resource).

everything with guitars is subjective, but (my opinion) EMG HZ's are just flat out bad.

and invaders are very picky how they are ran, i generally don't like them either and haven't had good results with them.

as far as the bad ground, if your hand touching the strings eliminates the buzz, you need to check your bridge/string ground. if the guitar has a trem it will be on the claw in the back, if its a TOM it is likely by one of the bridge studs. if touching metal on the knobs and jack, you need to just run through at check the grounds.

if i have even any minor problem with the wiring on a guitar, i just go through and reflow every joint. i have seen a lot of cold joints, and cracked joints from a plethora of guitars. it takes a few minutes, and if you do it once (properly and adequately), you will never have to worry about that being a problem.

also if you are really concerned about noise (or if you have very bad power), there is sheilding tape and paint, and a dozen other things that you can do to the control cavity/covers/etc that will help even more.

side note: if you have bad power, get a power conditioner. i have three in use in my studio and one in use at my home. they are priceless pieces of equipment, and don't cost a ton.

good luck!
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#5
I have a set of EMG HZs in my Jackson DXMG (for now) I don't like them, it is the worse sounding of all of my guitars the others are loaded with EMG actives or Duncan's either JB/JM or JB/59 and one with an Wilde XL500 and XL500R set.

I have had Invaders before and found them to be nothing special, I'll take a JB or Duncan Distortion over an Invader any Day.

I don't really play the DXMG because of the HZs, I have better sounding guitars so upgrading it hasn't really been a priority, I plan to replace them with either a Nazgul/Sentient passive set, or possibly try the red Glenn Tipton EMG GTV set.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

Come and be with me
Live my twisted dream
Pro devoted pledge
Time for primal concrete sledge

#6
Yeah HZs are awful, sounds like there is an issue with the ground and potentially other connections on the Invaders. I'm also not huge on Invaders though, in most situations I think they are just waaaay too much and kind of muddy the sound up.

HZs are awful for pretty much any application, though Alexi Laiho has his one that he likes (of course he has an active preamp on all his guitars so I'm not sure how much of his sound is the base pickup).
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#7
The Invaders shouldn't hum, but they are very high output pickups with a strong midrange focus. There could be a grounding problem, but I would also make sure both coils of each pickup are working by lightly tapping on the top of the pickup while the amp is on a low volume. If only one coil of each pickup was on, it would explain the noise and the sound.
#8
In terms of sustain, that's more down to the construction and quality of the guitars. However, Invaders can reduce sustain a little, as their magnetic pull is so strong. Backing them further from the strings should solve this problem.

Agreed with the others that there is a ground problem with the Invaders. Check over the guitar, make sure the bridge is grounded properly and the ground signal properly contacts the control pots and the ground tab on the jack. There's no reason for Invaders to hum if everything has been wired correctly; their coils are matched.

As far as the quality of EMG HZ pickups go, it's entirely subjective. Lots of people don't like them; that does not mean they are objectively worse pickups. That simply means that they do not appeal to those peoples' tastes. All a common humbucker is is two coils of wire and a bar magnet. There's no magic pixie dust which Seymour Duncan sprinkle on their pickups and EMG don't. Paying a premium for Bare Knuckle pickups does not get you some fantasy component which no other pickup contains. There's no objective construction difference between the cheapest generic stock pickups and the highest-end boutique pickups, only variations of the same parts which cause subjective differences.
In other words, saying "EMG HZs sound awful" is not accurate. Saying "EMG HZs sound awful to me" is accurate. Similarly, if you use a guitar with EMG HZ pickups and oyu like how they sound, that should not come as a surprise, really. It just means that the particular wire gauage, coil winding and magnet combination the EMGs use appeals to your tastes. If Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio made a pickup with the exact same wire gauge, wound the same number of turns, and using the same type of magnet, the resulting pickups would sound no better or worse than the EMG version.


If it sounds good to you, it is good, for you. Just enjoy the guitar witht he EMGs if you like how that sounds, and only worry about the Invaders as far as first fixing the ground issue, and then maybe consider a pickup swap if you're still not happy with that guitar. But don't worry about which brand is "better' or "worse" than the other. There's no better or worse, just different.
Yes, I know everything. No, I can't play worth a damn.
A child is trafficked and sold for sex slavery every 30 seconds. Support Love146.
#9
Quote by MrFlibble
There's no objective construction difference between the cheapest generic stock pickups and the highest-end boutique pickups, only variations of the same parts which cause subjective differences.


Those variations of parts cause differences which can be objectively measured, and there are also component quality and design differences, so I'm not sure your claim is as solid as you seem to think it is?

The end result ( the sound that occurs) may be subjective, but the rest is not.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#10
Quote by MrFlibble
There's no magic pixie dust which Seymour Duncan sprinkle on their pickups and EMG don't. Paying a premium for Bare Knuckle pickups does not get you some fantasy component which no other pickup contains. There's no objective construction difference between the cheapest generic stock pickups and the highest-end boutique pickups, only variations of the same parts which cause subjective differences.


I dont know anything about magic pixie dust but these name brand pickups definately have an objective difference in sound quality over most budget pickups, enough to justify the high cost? Maybe not but you are paying for marketing expenses.

Even within the name brands there are differences I have 3 guitars that have Duncan JB's 2 are factory production models and though they are in totally different guitars (King V and Super Strat) they sound relativley the same. Now the third JB is a custom shop that was hand would by Maricela Juarez who makes pickups for Jeff Beck, EVH, Malmsteen to name a few and the difference between it and the standard production models is night and day, while it still has that classic JB tone this thing just screams it is hotter and more sensitive to harmonics, I wish I had more of them.

I had a set of Guitar heads Z Buckers iin a used guitar that I bought they are $49.99 a set and at least to me as well as ALL of my musician buddies they sounded aweful, yes they have magnets, pole pieces, coiled wire etc. the same as the name brand, but there was a clear difference in the quality of sound.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

Come and be with me
Live my twisted dream
Pro devoted pledge
Time for primal concrete sledge

#11
Anyone who has had a pickup wound by MJ swears by it. If there is a thing called magic pixie dust, she has it.
#12
I put an EMG ALX (HZ-H2 with a gain boost) very briefly in my recent Explorer build and it sounded surprisingly good. Super-hot and beefy, but nothing compared with the Lundgren M6 set that I had coming for it. :-P
#13
Quote by Arby911
Those variations of parts cause differences which can be objectively measured, and there are also component quality and design differences, so I'm not sure your claim is as solid as you seem to think it is?
Which is part of the wind/gauge/magnet selection; it's not a matter of objective quality. Swapping an A2 magnet in a pickup for an A5 one causes a measurable difference which may be subjectively percieved as being better or worse, but the fact that the A2 magnet has been swapped for an A5 one does not make the pickup objectively higher or lower quality.


Quote by Evilnine

[cutting to the bit which matters]Even within the name brands there are differences I have 3 guitars that have Duncan JB's 2 are factory production models and though they are in totally different guitars (King V and Super Strat) they sound relativley the same. Now the third JB is a custom shop that was hand would by Maricela Juarez who makes pickups for Jeff Beck, EVH, Malmsteen to name a few and the difference between it and the standard production models is night and day, while it still has that classic JB tone this thing just screams it is hotter and more sensitive to harmonics, I wish I had more of them.
That's because when MJ winds a pickup, she's stopping the wind by hand. This means there are variations among every pickup she winds, even if they're supposed to be the same model, and the inevitably uneven coils produce more and clearer harmonic overtones. When you buy a standard SD pickup, they've had their coils regulated by machine, so they are inherently closer-matched; more consistent but they lose that added texture of the handwound. Because SD need to ship a lot of JBs (and other pickups) quickly and they are expected to give predictable results, they keep them machine-wound and tightly controlled.

If you programmed the machine to wind each coil slightly differently, in the same way, you get the same result as having MJ win the pickup for you. In fact, that is how aftermarket Gibson Burstbuckers and SD Seth Lovers are made. It's also the inspiration behind the SD 59/Custom Hybrid, all of DiMarzio's dual resonance designs, and it's what's going on in original PAF humbuckers.

Again, no magic pixie dust, no secret sauce, nothing a machine couldn't replicate if you bothered to program it to copy the same wind.

The point is, if you get one coil wound with .43AWG wire to 6.1k, and a second coil wound with .43AWG wire to 6.2k, and you combine them as a humbucker with an A5 magnet, you get the exact same result no matter whether it has Seymour Duncan stamped on it, EMG, DiMarzio, Gibson, or whatever else. A 6.1k .43 coil + a 6.2k .43 coil + standard-sized A5 magnet = same sound no matter which factory it happened to be made in.

So, to bring us around again to the original point: EMG's passive pickups are made just the same as Seymour Duncan pickups, DiMarzio pickups, etc. Different models have different combinations of gauge, winding, and magnet, but there's not objective reason to believe one brand is doing anything special which another is foregoing.

To put it another way, think of this: when a Fender artist has a signature Squier guitar, the Fender Custom Shop makes them their guitar—as in the one they're actually playing on stage—but applies a Squier decal to the headstock. When an Epiphone artist has a signature Epiphone, the guitars that person actually plays on stage is made by Gibson, but with an Epiphone headstock thrown on it. Does having the word 'Squier' or 'Epiphone' on the headstock instead of 'Fender' or 'Gibson' make that instrument any worse? Does it nullify the fact the instrument was made by the Fender/Gibson Custom Shops? No. It's still a Fender/Gibson Custom Shop guitar. It just happens to have a different logo on it. Same with pickups.

A passive EMG does not sound inherently worse than any given Seymour Duncan pickup. It may not appeal to your particular tastes, or one may be more suitable for your style of music than the other, but that's got nothing to do with the brand. It's entirely down to the coils and the magnets. The name on it means nothing.
Yes, I know everything. No, I can't play worth a damn.
A child is trafficked and sold for sex slavery every 30 seconds. Support Love146.
#14
SD is wayyyyyyyyyyyy wider range of sound then EMGhz
You can even find some of them which can produce tones like emgs
#15
I don't care for EMG HZs, and I've ripped Invaders out of one guitar I own. It's a bit like comparing dog poo to cat poo.

Certainly that doesn't reflect on either company, because both produce pickups that I'm good with. Grounding problems and magnetic pull are no doubt affecting the Invader-equipped guitar.
#16
Tone is perfectly subjective, if you think HZ sound good then they sound good for you, don't let the opinions of others sway you too much, or buy too much into brand loyalty.

I generally as a rule don't like Seymour Duncans, but I do really like the Nazgul and Sentient set, I think they sound great.

I love the tone of a lot of bands that use active EMG's, they are some of my favorites, but for me personally I don't like the tone of them when I play them, weird huh?
My Gear:
Ibanez Jet King 2
Ibanez RGDIX7 MPB
Ibanez GRG 7221
OLP John Petrucci
Epiphone Les Paul Custom Pro
Squier Stratocaster (modified)
Harley Benton CLD-41S (Acoustic)

Peavey Vypyr 30.

Boss CH-1 Super Chorus
Boss DD-3 Digital Delay
Boss FRV-1 '63 Fender Reverb
#17
Quote by Evilnine
I dont know anything about magic pixie dust but these name brand pickups definately have an objective difference in sound quality over most budget pickups, enough to justify the high cost? Maybe not but you are paying for marketing expenses.


Most pickups use very similar (if not identical) components, and 90% of what aftermarket pickups sell for is due to marketing, small volume purchases of materials, packaging, shipping, inventory costs, brick and mortar (or online store) costs, etc.

My impression is that a lot of them really don't have a significant positive difference in sound quality over budget pickups, though some do. In this forum, experience with aftermarket pickups seems to be limited to mostly those sold by large production companies that have their pickups populating big box store shelves: SD, DiMarzio, EMG.

I have guitars with Alembic, Bartolini (actives!), Carvins/Kiesels, Duncans, EMGs (lessee, that's A, B, C, D, E...), Kent Armstrongs, Dan Armstrongs, Gibson, Bill Lawrence, Tom Anderson, Agile, Arcane (Trussart Guitars), Gretsch, Rik, Fender, Kinman, Bare Knuckle, Mike Reilander, Suhr, Taylor, Fishman, LR Baggs, Graphtech, Lindy Fralin, Lace, Yamaha, James Tyler, Fernandes Sustainer, and a several I probably haven't recalled at the moment.

As one blogger puts it, "Psychology is critical in the sale of aftermarket pickups. At the pre-sale stage, physical sound has little real-terms bearing. Let’s face it, there’s nothing the manufacturers can play us which really tells us what their pickups are going to do in our guitars. So many factors govern how a pickup performs, that any audio demonstration is virtually meaningless." The more drenched in hype, the better an aftermarket pickup will sell.

The sad truth is, whether you have a budget guitar with original (cheap) pickups or an expensive one with aftermarkets, there's absolutely no hard and fast rule regarding how either will sound or perform. "Definitely have an objective difference in sound quality...?" Not always, sometimes not often and definitely not necessarily.