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#1
Do you consider Alternative Metal, to be metal?

I personally do. There's a reason why, though.
I believe there's a difference between not liking something and realizing something has enough take from a genre to qualify being a part of it.

Sub genres of Metal have always been this, so I don't understand why Alternative Metal would be any different. If Alternative Metal is not metal, then the same could be argued about Death Metal and Thrash Metal, which took from genres like hardcore punk.

I know Metal has a lot to do with culture, but things change, and honestly, the modern metal culture was probably nothing like the associated culture when metal was being formed.

Things change, and music expands, and will keep expanding. Genres will branch out, and incorporate different sounds and textures and will keep finding new ways to evolve.


Whether or not a specific alternative metal band is relevant to be discussed here is a different thing though.
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#2
Death metal is metal that borrows from grindcore

Metalcore is hardcore that borrows from metal

Nu metal is sort of an umbrella term but in general is alt rock that borrows from metal among a range of other genres

What exactly do u mean by alternative metal
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

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#3
Quote by MHDrunk
Death metal is metal that borrows from grindcore

Metalcore is hardcore that borrows from metal

Nu metal is sort of an umbrella term but in general is alt rock that borrows from metal among a range of other genres

What exactly do u mean by alternative metal


I always felt that Alternative Metal was more of a mix of alternative rock with metal, and Nu metal was a spin off of alternative metal.

Alternative Metal usually consists of heavy riffs akin to metal with alternative rock/hard rock style songwriting.

Death Metal can find roots within hardcore music, technically, but everything evolves.

I figured the point of subgenres is that it's not exactly what the main genre is, but connects with it in a certain sense.

Alternative Metal definitely has a lot of heavy metal elements, but obviously a mix of a lot of other sources, which is why I always thought it's why it's called Alternative Metal. Basically Metal + Alternative Rock and/or other sources.

Nu metal I can personally say is 99% garbage in my opinion, but it still does take some sort of metal sense of heavy down tuned riffs, though it's pretty bare basic rhythms and the songwriting is extremely different than normal heavy metal.

Alternative Metal is closer home to metal to me, than Nu Metal.


One of the best alternative metal influenced albums I can point out is Soilwork's Natural Born Chaos, and if that isn't metal, I don't know what is, regardless if some people here don't like Soilwork.
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#4
Quote by Clay-man

One of the best alternative metal influenced albums I can point out is Soilwork's Natural Born Chaos, and if that isn't metal, I don't know what is, regardless if some people here don't like Soilwork.


Alternative metal influenced? I had to listen to that album again 'cause I forgot what it sounded like, but if that's alternative metal then I guess it's metal, albeit really poppy. What's some other albums that you'd say are indicative of the sound of alternative metal?
#5
Can you give, lets say, 5 albums that you would call 'alternative metal'?
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#6
'Alternative' anything is bullshit and there is always a better adjective for it. "Alternative' is radio nomenclature for plebs.
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I hope,
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Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
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#7
Quote by VampireGoldfish
'Alternative' anything is bullshit and there is always a better adjective for it. "Alternative' is radio nomenclature for plebs.

Its like saying.. "hey you want Coca-Cola? nah man try this "equate" cola its so awesome and so much better than Coca-Cola"

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#8
i've always considered it closer to rock than metal. i don't listen to that stuff anymore though so i don't think about it much. i'm happy with "i know it when i hear it"
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Last edited by vIsIbleNoIsE at May 27, 2016,
#9
Define "Alternative" Rock and "Alternative" Metal and I think we can have a discussion.

Stupid fucking term.
#10
It's like an umbrella term for grunge, nu-metal, and weird sounding hard rock bands. We need a bunch of bands/albums that you consider 'alternative metal' because the term is not well defined. It is possible for a band classified as 'alternative metal' to be metal, but not necessarily true that every band classified as 'alternative metal' is a metal band.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#11
Often I find thrash metal a viable alternative to my death metal diet. Power, trad, black and doom also. As you can see I alternate between all the good types of metal quite a bit
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#12
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#13
Quote by Kytokinesis
It's like an umbrella term for grunge, nu-metal, and weird sounding hard rock bands. We need a bunch of bands/albums that you consider 'alternative metal' because the term is not well defined. It is possible for a band classified as 'alternative metal' to be metal, but not necessarily true that every band classified as 'alternative metal' is a metal band.


I like this post. I think it rings true. Honestly, A lot of bands classified under alternative metal are also classified under other things that are outside of metal as well.

I think this is the whole point of the alternative tag though. It's not your normal rock, it's alternative rock. It's not your normal metal, it's alternative metal. I think that's why some people have a problem with alternative metal because some take influences that clashes with the metal culture and standard that we want.

Personally, I don't think music really has any rules, and a lot of things are hugely based on opinion, so sometimes things end up being defined by a person's opinion and stance, which is why we have so much arguments about what is metal and what is not, because we like to reject certain elements that seem tainted.
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#14
Quote by Kytokinesis
It's like an umbrella term for grunge, nu-metal, and weird sounding hard rock bands. We need a bunch of bands/albums that you consider 'alternative metal' because the term is not well defined. It is possible for a band classified as 'alternative metal' to be metal, but not necessarily true that every band classified as 'alternative metal' is a metal band.


Later Slipknot (Good example being Sulpher, beginning straight up sounds like a thrash song and then takes from Groove in the verses)

Later Disturbed (Heavy guitars, also strong groove influence, blaring metal solos)

System Of A Down (First few albums had a lot of speed metal elements in their songs, and to call it just "hard rock")

Mid Soilwork (Natural Born Chaos, probably the best Alternative Metal album mixing Melodic Death Metal, Figure Number Five, not as well done though)

Some of Seether (these are one of the bands that can have multiple labels, like post-grunge, but it's obvious some songs heavily draw from metal music, especially off their first 2 albums)

Whether you like this music is a different discussion. The fact remains that a lot of theses type of bands either draw a mild amount of metal elements or a strong amount of metal elements to their music and mixes it with outside elements not familiar with the metal genre, which is why I think it's called Alternative Metal.

While these terms can be abused, so can every other term out there. Look at Melodic Death Metal, and how it turned from Death Metal + Iron Maiden to contextless melodic guitars with some douchebag yelling on the microphone with no stylistic death metal traits combined with it.

I think just calling Alternative Metal "Hard Rock" doesn't really work because it has way more heavy elements than hard rock music presents, and the songwriting and style isn't the same as hard rock bands, though these bands might have hard rock elements. It's kind of like calling Slayer AC/DC if Thrash Metal didn't exist but Death Metal did. It's a middle ground.
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#15
I believe those bands you mentioned are actually avoidcore artists.
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#16
Quote by Clay-man
Later Slipknot (Good example being Sulpher, beginning straight up sounds like a thrash song and then takes from Groove in the verses)


Nu-Metal

Quote by Clay-man
Later Disturbed (Heavy guitars, also strong groove influence, blaring metal solos)


Nu-Metal

Quote by Clay-man
System Of A Down (First few albums had a lot of speed metal elements in their songs, and to call it just "hard rock")


Nu-Metal

Quote by Clay-man
Mid Soilwork (Natural Born Chaos, probably the best Alternative Metal album mixing Melodic Death Metal, Figure Number Five, not as well done though)


Nu-Metal

Quote by Clay-man
Some of Seether (these are one of the bands that can have multiple labels, like post-grunge, but it's obvious some songs heavily draw from metal music, especially off their first 2 albums)


Nu-Metal

Hmm...
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#18
Quote by VampireGoldfish
Nu-Metal


Nu-Metal


Nu-Metal


Nu-Metal


Nu-Metal

Hmm...



They sound nothing like Korn, Linkin Park, or Papa Roach, so no.

Nu Metal only features downtuned guitars and sometimes rap elements, Alternative Metal features more melody and draws more actual elements from metal than just downtuned heavy power chords.
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#19
Quote by Clay-man
Nu Metal only features downtuned guitars and sometimes rap elements


yeah and literally nothing else right
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#20
Quote by Clay-man
System Of A Down (First few albums had a lot of speed metal elements in their songs, and to call it just "hard rock")


?????????
#21
Quote by Clay-man
They sound nothing like Korn, Linkin Park, or Papa Roach, so no.

Nu Metal only features downtuned guitars and sometimes rap elements, Alternative Metal features more melody and draws more actual elements from metal than just downtuned heavy power chords.


This condescending tone towards Nu Metal coming from and "Alt" advocate is sublime.

All Nu Metal = "Alt"
A heathen, conceivably
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I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#22
Alternative metal (also known as alt-metal[3] or hard alternative[4]) is a rock music genre that infuses heavy metal with influences from alternative rock[5] and other genres not normally associated with metal.[5][6] Alternative metal bands are often characterized by heavy guitar riffs, melodic vocals, sometimes harsh vocals, unconventional sounds within other heavy metal genres, unconventional song structures and sometimes experimental approaches to heavy music.[6]
The term has been in usage since the 1980s,[7] although it came into prominence in the 1990s.[8] It has spawned several subgenres, including rap metal[6][9] and funk metal, which have both influenced another prominent subgenre, nu metal, which expands the alternative metal sound, commonly adding influences from hip hop, groove metal,[10] grunge, and sometimes industrial metal.
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but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#23
Oh look, literally everything you just described is encapsulated by Nu Metal and "Alt" and the two are far more often than not interchangeable.

"Alternative" is such a cop out of a term.

"Rock with flutes?!?!? Alternative! Rock with bullhorns?!?!? Alternative. Rock with Rap?! Alternative!"

It's all the same at its core.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
Last edited by VampireGoldfish at May 29, 2016,
#24
I enjoy how even the WIKI page for "Alternative" is just "Well.... it's Rock music with... other... stuff... I guess?"
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#25
Cherry Cola is still Cola, it just has gross fake ass Cherry in it.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#26
In Flames Reroute to Remain and beyond essentially
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


Last edited by Kytokinesis at May 29, 2016,
#27
Quote by VampireGoldfish
Cherry Cola is still Cola, it just has gross fake ass Cherry in it.


People up in Canada pay boatloads for this stuff, same with vanilla coke.
#28
I don't drink soda period. Water, coffee, tea, some booze.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#29
Those bands are definitely nu-metal. Maybe OP should've gone to wikipedia before he came here
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#30
Quote by severed-metal
People up in Canada pay boatloads for this stuff, same with vanilla coke.

Vanilla Coke is pretty rad. Cherry Coke blows prolapsed ass.
#31
Silence you mindless, tasteless peons. Cherry coke is awesome.

At the very least let's agree it is better than nu metal
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#32
Quote by MHDrunk
Silence you mindless, tasteless peons. Cherry coke is awesome.

At the very least let's agree it is better than nu metal

*Alternative
#33
Quote by severed-metal
?????????


Hah I wanted to write something but I think I did this before work and noticed the time.

I was saying to just call it "hard rock" is ridiculous because it features metal influences that hard rock does have.
Plenty of songs on Toxicity draw from thrash metal.
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#34
Quote by Kytokinesis
In Flames Reroute to Remain and beyond essentially


Yes, very much. I think Reroute has some traces of old In Flames while mixing alternative metal in it.

Soundtrack To Your Escape stripped a whole lot more of those elements and focused even more on an Alternative sound.

Come Clarity Brought back some of the characteristics but at the same time, it didn't really sound like Old In Flames still.

A Sense Of Purpose ventured into Metalcore territory.

Sounds Of A Playground Fading pretty much is a full Alternative Metal album.

And I'm not going to even touch Siren Charms.
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#35
I can say some of the bands I listed did start or have association with Nu Metal, but to say they always have been Nu Metal, I don't agree with.

Example:

Disturbed - Down With The Sickness: Nu Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LTT0xwdfw

Disturbed - Land Of Confusion cover: Alternative Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV4oYkIeGJc

Slipknot - Spit It Out: Nu Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPUZwriSX4M

Slipknot - Sulfur: Alternative Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAAvNmoqDq0


If you think Soilwork was anywhere near Nu Metal, you might be doing meth.
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#36
Quote by Clay-man
I can say some of the bands I listed did start or have association with Nu Metal, but to say they always have been Nu Metal, I don't agree with.

Example:

Disturbed - Down With The Sickness: Nu Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LTT0xwdfw

Disturbed - Land Of Confusion cover: Alternative Metal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV4oYkIeGJc


Why the shit did you pick a cover song? And I don't quite get how Disturbed became a metal band when the primary change in their sound after Ten Thousand Fists was put a really catchy radio rock chorus in every song. They may play some third-rate Machine Head riffs every now and then, but take that away and you have a band that's no different than Saving Abel or Shinedown. I think that's the big thing here too; while these bands may have some metal influence, if you take that away you still have a fully functioning rock band and not much is really changed. This is why if I hear band like this I just refer to it as alternative rock, because the core is rock music, not metal.

slipknotsongs


I wouldn't argue Slipknot didn't try to pull in a more metal crowd with AHIG, but only a few songs really committed to a thrashy sound while the rest were mostly anthem rock-based crowd pleasers, dark power ballads, and cringey attempts at tough guy hardcore. Then after that album they went back to their old style, but with more radio appeal.

The reason I'm pointing these things out is that while yes, these bands did change their sound form nu metal to something else, the jump wasn't very big at all. If I was to use the term "alternative metal" in some form it would be as a catch all term for bands who fuck around with a bunch of different popular music styles and put 'em into one. Wouldn't really have a set sound, but all the bands I'd put in it have the same philosophy; throw as much shit at a wall as possible and hope something sticks.


If you think Soilwork was anywhere near Nu Metal, you might be doing meth.


I don't know about that...

*cough*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZygmPt6K5-M
*cough*
#37
Disturbed and Slipknot can use as much double bass as they want, tune their guitars as low as they want, they will never be metal. Their core songwriting principles and production values go against those of metal. You should be able to recognize metal when you hear it. It sounds colossal. It's excessive in every possible facet. Disturbed and Slipknot's songs do not have that quality. They're remarkably tame in comparison. In the early days they were already rebelling against metal culture, and now that they're more successful I wouldn't doubt that their heaviness or aggression or general excess is carefully calculated in order to satisfy the elitist pop philosophy of songwriting.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#38
Morpho and Kyto dropping the knowledge.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#39
Quote by Kytokinesis
Disturbed and Slipknot can use as much double bass as they want, tune their guitars as low as they want, they will never be metal. Their core songwriting principles and production values go against those of metal. You should be able to recognize metal when you hear it. It sounds colossal. It's excessive in every possible facet. Disturbed and Slipknot's songs do not have that quality. They're remarkably tame in comparison. In the early days they were already rebelling against metal culture, and now that they're more successful I wouldn't doubt that their heaviness or aggression or general excess is carefully calculated in order to satisfy the elitist pop philosophy of songwriting.


I'm sorry but your post sounds like metal elitism lingo.

You don't have any real argument in your statement.
If those have no sense of metal in the music, then neither does Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, or Black Sabbath.

Those bands new material both obviously take from groove metal and heavy metal.

Remember that if it's not as heavy as death metal, that doesn't mean it's not metal.
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#40
Do you even listen to metal or just read about it on Wikipedia?
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