#1
Hey guys i just started trying out the truefire website (its awesome) and i began with the "hard rock survival lead guitar" and in lesson 5 i was suppose to learn the major and minor scale in all 12 keys... Is there anyway i can do that in less than like 10 weeks lmao
#2
You need to understand what that means. Do you know what a key is? Sure, you can learn 24 scales but that does little to help you in understanding them. Learn what a key is, learn some intervals, and learn how to build a scale from those intervals.

What the lesson is probably about is just scale shapes. Do you know your way around that fretboard? Do you know where all of the notes are? If you know a single scale shape, and know the fretboard, you can play any scale in any key easily.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#3
Im famillar with intervals and i know key is like the name of the root.
So do you think i should learn the name of all the notes? I can calculate them by starring from fret 1.

But if i were to learn the notes whats a good way to do so?
#4
You don't appear to know what a key is at all. Start with the major scale, then work your way from there.

You could definitely learn all that to some degree in 10 weeks, but you'll also be able to learn it better and better over 10 years.
#5
Quote by Maxfalk
Im famillar with intervals and i know key is like the name of the root.
So do you think i should learn the name of all the notes? I can calculate them by starring from fret 1.


Well, you're not completely wrong, but you're still missing a lot. When a song is in a key, let's say G major for an example, it dictates a) what notes and chords are diatonic to that key b) what functions those notes have. In G, the G would be the tonic chord, meaning that it's function is to be the "beginning and the end" of the progression. Every chord in G major moves the harmony towards the G chord. On the other hand, D major would be the dominant chord, meaning that it's function is to resolve to the tonic chord. This is why you would often see chord progressions that end with D-G.

The reason people learn scales is because it's a very easy way to memorize the notes diatonic to a key. The G major scale would be G-A-B-C-D-E-F#, and those are the notes that sound most natural in the key of G major.

The reason most guitarists learn scales however, is because it's an easy way to play something that sounds good. When you learn a scale shape, you can play the scale without even knowing the notes. It's helpful, but ultimately counter-intuitive. I'd recommend you learn a mixture of both: it's important to know what notes are you playing and why, and what function they have in a key. But learning the basic scale shapes on guitar is useful and will most likely help you a lot.

Quote by Maxfalk
But if i were to learn the notes whats a good way to do so?


1. learn the chromatic scale by heart. It contains all of the notes we use in western theory. I'll type it here, starting at C:

C-C#/Db-D-D#/Eb-E-F-F#/Gb-G-G#/Ab-A-A#/Bb-B-C

Notice that C#/Db and F#/Gb etc. are the same notes, there are just do different ways to spell them, depending on the key.

2. learn your intervals properly, learn to use them with the chromatic scale and you can figure out the notes to all of the major and minor keys.

3. Figure out how to play it on the guitar. Standard scale shapes will help with this a lot.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
Last edited by Kevätuhri at Jun 1, 2016,
#6
Quote by Maxfalk
Hey guys i just started trying out the truefire website (its awesome) and i began with the "hard rock survival lead guitar" and in lesson 5 i was suppose to learn the major and minor scale in all 12 keys... Is there anyway i can do that in less than like 10 weeks lmao

Cycle of fifths is your friend.
#8
You can do it in a week if you're diligent

1) Look up the interval pattern for the major and minor scales
2) Write out the notes C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G
3) Write out the major and minor scale starting on each of those notes.
4) Starting with C major, find all those scales on the guitar

10 weeks is easily enough time, but you have to learn and practice this stuff for it to be of any use.
#10
Quote by Maxfalk
Did famous guitar metalheads really practise this stuff?
The best of them, almost certainly. You need total command of the fretboard, and learning major scales in all 12 keys is one way to get there.

However, you can cheat to some degree on guitar, because you can just move patterns up or down the neck to get different keys. So if you know - eg - the C major scale all over the neck, you only need to lower them all by 1 fret to get Db major, without having to work out all the notes in Db major. (But learn C major properly: all the note names and scale degrees, and chords you can make out of them - not just finger patterns.)

It's certainly worth taking advantage of that pattern basis of guitar scales, even while you're learning the theory. I.e., don't use the patterns to escape the theory, but to assist you in learning the theory.

Also, as it's rock guitar I guess you're interested in, you could start with the most common major keys in guitar music: C G D A E (in circle of 5ths order), adding others later (and bearing in mind the tip about just shifting patterns the right number of frets).
Last edited by jongtr at Jun 2, 2016,
#11
Quote by Maxfalk
Did famous guitar metalheads really practise this stuff?

Some. Study their background on wiki.
#12
I wouldn't learn them in all 12 keys. Not starting out. Not at all. It's one of the biggest wastes of time that are constantly perpetuated in the "way" people do things.

Learn them in 5 keys and that will do for 95 percent of your playing easily. The rest is and can be learned contextually. The 12 keys is idealistic nonsense. The only time's it's served me well, in over 30 years of playing and teaching, is in playing Jazz.

Learn C G E D and A and be done, for a long time.

Best,

Sean
#13
Quote by Maxfalk
Did famous guitar metalheads really practise this stuff?



For slow notes, you can get pretty good at just guessing where the notes you want are with a decent level of accuracy, and if you make a mistake, you can fix it easily enough.

If you start really playing quickly, there isn't enough time for your brain to ponder and estimate where you should go next. it needs to be immediate and accurate.

Same sort of thing for muscle memory, you can have some muscle memory for the next note, in playing slowly, without ever practicing shapes, and that can come really easily and naturally. But for a string of notes, you need to have muscle memory for strings of notes, even if you will change it up as you speed along. Your fingering will need to be in such a way that you don't get "stuck" with hands, and trip over your own fingers, and you will need the strength and dexterity to be able to use whatever finger you call upon to do whatever you ask of it, at whatever point in time. There can be no hesitation.

All guitarists that can improvise well, and quickly, practiced A LOT. That's as in years. so in 10 weeks you can learn about keys, and know some patterns, but you will still be way off from their skill level.

Obviously you can make cool music at a much lower skill level as well.

All the keys are kind of the same anyway. Even minor and major is the same shape. It's just you move the shape around for different keys and change your reference point, the tonic, between major and minor. The tonic is the "root" of the key. Root is for chords, tonic is for keys/scales.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jun 2, 2016,
#14
thanks everyone but sadly im a little bit ******ed and have big trouble with all theory.
Is there anyone who can give me a simple step by step way to achive this?

-Edit i understand and can play the ionian mode in every key in major
Last edited by Maxfalk at Jun 2, 2016,
#16
Quote by Sean0913
....[ ]...Learn them in 5 keys and that will do for 95 percent of your playing easily. The rest is and can be learned contextually. The 12 keys is idealistic nonsense. The only time's it's served me well, in over 30 years of playing and teaching, is in playing Jazz.

Learn C G E D and A and be done, for a long time.

Best,

Sean
Oh, B major comes in handy once in a while. I just think of it as E major with an A#...... (I know, I know, I, IV, V is different too).

For the rest there's always a.............(wait for it)..............,"capo"
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jun 2, 2016,
#17
I'd venture to say that most people famous for their awesome guitar paying - in any style - are well versed in theory, or at least knowledge of their instrument.

Quote by Sean0913

Learn them in 5 keys and that will do for 95 percent of your playing easily. The rest is and can be learned contextually. The 12 keys is idealistic nonsense. The only time's it's served me well, in over 30 years of playing and teaching, is in playing Jazz.

Learn C G E D and A and be done, for a long time.


I would disagree. It's not so much about the practicality of the factual knowledge as the usefulness of having the pattern very thoroughly ingrained. Working out all 12 keys does not take much more time than learning 5, and doing them in circle of 5ths order makes the conceptual part so much more clear. You just proceed one sharp/flat at a time. That way once you've got C, you already have 6 of the notes in F or G memorized. Understanding the scales/keys as a simple one note variation, to me, is a lot easier than trying to memorize them piecemeal.

And I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but in my own, having all the non-open position keys ready has been a huge advantage. There are a lot of popular songs written in the "other" keys or downtuned, and you never know what you're going to run into.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jun 2, 2016,
#18
Don't learn church modes right now; they're not useful at this point. Ionian and major are not interchangeable concepts. There's a mode sticky if you're interested.

Focus on major, minor, how the notes relate to each other (intervals), where the notes in a key and major/minor mode fall with relation to musical time, and chord functions.
Glad to cross paths with you on this adventure called life
Quote by Jet Penguin
lots of flirting with the other key without confirming. JUST LIKE THEIR LOVE IN THE MOVIE OH DAMN.
Quote by Hail
you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#19
Quote by cdgraves
I'd venture to say that most people famous for their awesome guitar paying - in any style - are well versed in theory, or at least knowledge of their instrument.


I would disagree. It's not so much about the practicality of the factual knowledge as the usefulness of having the pattern very thoroughly ingrained. Working out all 12 keys does not take much more time than learning 5, and doing them in circle of 5ths order makes the conceptual part so much more clear. You just proceed one sharp/flat at a time. That way once you've got C, you already have 6 of the notes in F or G memorized. Understanding the scales/keys as a simple one note variation, to me, is a lot easier than trying to memorize them piecemeal.

And I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but in my own, having all the non-open position keys ready has been a huge advantage. There are a lot of popular songs written in the "other" keys or downtuned, and you never know what you're going to run into.



I actually don't know any of my keys that way. I couldn't name you the notes in any given key, although I could figure it out, by running through the scale on a fretboard in my mind.

I do everything pattern based. So, essentially, once I've learned one key, I've learned them all, aside from open strings. Although, for travelling long distances on the fretboard, it's good to be comfortable in a key, and the scale length on acoustics is pretty short, so Where the nut cuts you off makes a difference for that.

But if you asked me how many notes difference between two keys, I will have no idea. I just look at it as one pattern that moves around, and I know it lots of ways. So, if you tell me that I am in A, and then I have to go into G on a C chord, that's no problem, I just go to C, and that's a IV now. whereas 2 seconds ago it was a bIII. You could tell me any chord rooted on any string and define it as any degree, and I'll be able to play that.

But I have no idea what notes are in what key, or how many common or different notes any 2 keys might have.
#20
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Don't learn church modes right now; they're not useful at this point. Ionian and major are not interchangeable concepts. There's a mode sticky if you're interested.

Focus on major, minor, how the notes relate to each other (intervals), where the notes in a key and major/minor mode fall with relation to musical time, and chord functions.

I guess by "Ionian mode" TS means a certain box shape. Many people use the mode names that way and that's just confusing.

The first thing to understand about scales is that they are all over the fretboard. "Ionian" is not just one position. It is all over the fretboard, just like all other scales are. But I would suggest not thinking about "Ionian" or any other of the modes right now. Learn the major and minor scales first because those are the most important scales.


Where to start with theory? Well, learn about intervals and scale and chord construction (scales and chords are made from intervals). Learn about keys and chord functions. Learn about rhythm and time signatures.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#21
Quote by Maxfalk
thanks everyone but sadly im a little bit ******ed and have big trouble with all theory.
Is there anyone who can give me a simple step by step way to achive this?

-Edit i understand and can play the ionian mode in every key in major
There you go, that's all 12 major scales. Can you play them all over the neck? (5 patterns for each scale, repeating after fret 12?)

IOW, when you say "ionian mode", I'm guessing you mean just one major scale pattern. There are 5 for each major scale. (There can be 7, but 5 gives you enough overlap). And there are 12 major scales. But that doesn't mean 60 scale patterns! It's still only 5 patterns - always in the same order - they just shift up or down the neck. Ie, 5 patterns, 12 fret positions.
The important thing is to know the name of the root note. So you know if your scale is C major, G major, whatever. Forget mode names for scale patterns (that's a really bad idea), learn the other five major scale patterns (check out the CAGED system), and learn where the keynote is in each of them. That's the only "theory" you really need.
Once you know the keynotes, you can take your time working out the others.

And of course, as you move the patterns this way and that, you'll learn the other keynote names and positions, so your fretboard knowledge will build up that way.

This is a pretty good lesson on the five scale patterns:
http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-204-MajorScalePatterns.php
You can see the links between the patterns by how the upper fret(s) of one pattern become the lower fret of the next. (Low frets are at the top of the diagrams of course). Make sure you can see the chord shape in each pattern (root positions help here).

If you place pattern 1 so that your index is on fret 2, then it's a G major scale pattern. The red notes will then be Gs.

To continue the G major scale, move up to pattern 2: the red "2" is on fret 5 (matching the red 4 in pattern 1).

Pattern 3 (still G major) will be on fret 7. (The red notes are always Gs)

Pattern 4, the A shape, is a weird one. Personally I'd leave out that low index finger note on 6th string. Just match the red 2 with the red 4 on pattern 3, placing it on fret 10.

The main index finger fret for pattern 5 will then be 12. (You should be able to see the "G" chord shape here if you imagine fret 12 as 0.)

The series will continue beyond there with another "E" shape on fret 14 (root on 15), and so on.

If you learn all these, then you will know the positions of all the G notes on the fretboard (those red notes). Move all the patterns 2 frets up (towards the bridge), and you have the A major scale, and the red notes are all A. And so on.

(The other crucial piece of info you need is the ABCDEFG formula: 1 fret between BC and EF, 2 frets between every other pair of notes. Then - given the EADGBE open string notes - you can work out any note position you want, and apply whichever of these patterns you want.)

It's called CAGED, btw, because that's the order the shapes run in up the neck. Justin's patterns 1-2-3-4-5 are E-D-C-A-G , but the cycle repeats after that. (Naturally the five different shapes, in overlapped order, produce the same chord or scale, and that chord/scale varies if you move them up or down. That's the one drawback with the system: the name for a shape is not the same as its sound. As long as you're aware of that, it's OK.)
Last edited by jongtr at Jun 3, 2016,