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#1
A mother has written a powerful open letter to the doctor who she claims told her to “abort” her daughter with Down’s syndrome.

Courtney Williams Baker shared a photo of her 15-month-old daughter Emmy holding the letter that was being posted to her prenatal specialist.

“[The prenatal specialist] repeatedly suggested we abort,” Baker claimed in the Facebook status.

“He said her and our quality of life would be horrible. He was so unbelievably wrong.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/downs-syndrome-open-letter-to-doctor_uk_5757fa57e4b01828d3800c1b

Do you think it is wrong to suggest abortion as an alternative to having a child with a syndrome like Down's Syndrome? Does it suggest they are sub-human? What if you found out your child was going to have Down's Syndrome, what would you do?

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#2
Downs syndrome isn't even that bad of a birth issue to have. If you abort because of Downs syndrome you are probably just a selfish person.

If I found out my child was going to have downs, I would ask my wife what she wanted to do, and if she wanted to go through with it I would be all in.
#3
People have the choice to do whatever they want.


That being said I probably wouldn't suggest it to a family that's already probably struggling with the idea of a child that's in for a super tough life and the extra effort they have to put in to raise one. I can see that being offensive.


But do I think it's wrong to tell you all your options? No. Would I abort a child like that? I don't know. I haven't been in that situation. I would probably do what is best for myself and those around me, regardless of the outcome.
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#4
I don't think that it's useful or beneficial to individuals to suggest that they abort a child on the possibility that any conditions they may have MIGHT make their lives miserable.

It potentially places a questionable value judgment on the individual based on mental and/or physical bases.

I think that we should kill every newborn to end the suffering of existence it would depend on how well I could raise them over a sustained period of time, whether I wanted to, and whether the pregnant partner was in agreement. However I would likely apply this to having children in general.
Last edited by Banjocal at Jun 8, 2016,
#5
i don't even think the subject should be directed toward mental disorders

i'm completely pro choice
if you don't want a baby, abort it.
doesn't matter if the fetus is perfectly healthy and normal
if you can't support a kid, don't have one

if the down syndrome was caused by the parents drug use, physical trauma, etc
then i think abortion is a requirement, because it wasn't natural
and the mother should go to jail for harming an unborn child.
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#6
Quote by k.lainad
i don't even think the subject should be directed toward mental disorders

i'm completely pro choice
if you don't want a baby, abort it.
doesn't matter if the fetus is perfectly healthy and normal
if you can't support a kid, don't have one

if the down syndrome was caused by the parents drug use, physical trauma, etc
then i think abortion is a requirement, because it wasn't natural
and the mother should go to jail for harming an unborn child.

There are no known environmental or behavioural causes for Down's. The trisomy occurs by chance.
#7
I would never wish a disability on anyone and while i dont know i would abort or not i think i would be selfish for not aborting and would hate watching my child constantly being mistreated.
#8
meh, it's a doctors job to make sure that the parent is well aware of all possible choice regarding any sort of medical condition.

I don't know how much of a jerk he was being but I can absolutely see how having a Down baby could ruin someone's life to the point where I don't think he did anything really wrong.

If that couple is coping well with their kid, great. However, having been a witness of many families going through similar situation, I would say that their situation is not the norm and shouldn't be treated as such
#9
I would just be sad and feel bad my DNA wasn't good enough. I don't think I would ever have an aborted kid. Doesn't seem natural.
#10
i think House from House MD is really cool, so...
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#11
Quote by bradulator at #34000745
If you abort because of Downs syndrome you are probably just a selfish person.


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#12
Quote by slipknot5678
I would never wish a disability on anyone and while i dont know i would abort or not i think i would be selfish for not aborting and would hate watching my child constantly being mistreated.

Isn't this kinda like victim blaming?

Everybody gets mistreated. Like you gonna be okay with aborting females because you're gonna hate watching your daughter get harrassed by other dudes?
#13
Quote by flexiblemile
I can absolutely see how having a Down baby could ruin someone's life to the point where I don't think he did anything really wrong.


How then?
#14
By many accounts, and i am close to one family, the Down's child is seldom the burden it is made out to be. Many times far more well behaved than their "normal" siblings. For a healthcare professional to suggest an abortion is totally wrong, whether you are pro-life or pro-choice.
#15
I think it'd be useful to have training to help people interact with Down's Syndrome people

I'm really not sure how I should treat them...do they need special care an attention, can you treat them as any other adult? It's something I am genuinely unsure about.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#16
Quote by Bass Builder
By many accounts, and i am close to one family, the Down's child is seldom the burden it is made out to be. Many times far more well behaved than their "normal" siblings. For a healthcare professional to suggest an abortion is totally wrong, whether you are pro-life or pro-choice.

The child is going to grow into an adult, though.

Likely with an IQ in the 50-60 range.
#17
I personally believe it's irresponsible and cruel to immediately inflict a crippling, lifelong disadvantage on any living being knowing full well that you could prevent a lifetime of suffering for your fellow human by not giving them the chance.

But enough about student loans, huehuehue.
o()o

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#18
I think he should be allowed too make them aware of all options and offer his professional opinion but then leave it at that.

He shouldn't have applied pressure to the situation and should have made no further comment after doing the above.

Bet the mother's twisted the story and claimed more than he actually did.


Personally, I would never have a Down's syndrome child. I know of plenty that have good quality of life, however, I know it would impact my quality of life and that's not something I'd be willing to do when there's an option to have a none-Down's syndrome child.
#19
Quote by bradulator
How then?


I don't understand your question. The article is insinuating that the doctor shouldn't have pushed the abortion as an option because the family is happy with their baby.

However, of all the families that I know that have kids with mental problems (downs or other,) most are separated, "staying together for the kids" or dysfunctional in one way or another.

Therefore while it's wonderful that this family is finding happiness (and I'm not saying its impossible to do so), I can only agree with the doctor who presented abortion as a realistic and acceptable answer to the problem.

It seems that the lady in the article feels that her doctor should have had more of an "all children are miracles" attitude. But he's a pragmatic medical professionnal. It's not his job to be amazed by the wonder of life but rather to make sure that we live in as healthy a society as possible
Last edited by flexiblemile at Jun 8, 2016,
#20
1.If you can't raise a kid with down syndrome, then you probably are going to have difficulty raising *any* kid and any kid you have will have a really hard life as a result of your failures as a parent, so if you're gonna abort a kid with down syndrome, don't bother having kids. To make it clear though, I'm not saying you shouldn't have kids but that if you're going to be selective about what kind of kid you want to have to the point of aborting an "undesirable", you devalue both the kind of kid you don't want, and the kind of kid you *do* want so you're not going to be a very good parent.

EDIT: I can clarify this further by saying that I don't care if you have kids or not, but if you set the standard of "I don't want to have kids that aren't going to have a good life", then not having kids at all makes more sense than just aborting a kid with down syndrome.

2.Down Syndrome doesn't cause immense physical pain, and the only real psychological pain is because society fucking sucks. You shouldn't abort a fetus because of social stigma, that's just dumb. If you want an example where aborting a fetus for a condition is a good idea, look up "anencephaly", but I'll warn you now the images are graphic and disturbing. If the pain of living is so intense that the baby probably won't make it, abortion is a good idea, but if the idea is "oh, my baby's gonna be weird and people won't like them" then you're being a piece of shit. I'm not saying you can't abort a baby, but that's a bad reason to do it. Your reasoning should be "I don't want a kid", not "I don't want a kid with down syndrome"

3.to add to that last point, the difference between "I don't want a kid right now", and "I don't want a kid with down syndrome" is that the latter is eugenics. Eugenics is very, very bad. We should be looking to preserve the well-being and happiness of all kinds of people, not selectively removing the ones who are going to have it harder. Rather than removing the people that are hurt by society's fucked up ideals, we should be striving to change society's ideals towards something more inclusive and more respectful.
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Last edited by qrEE at Jun 8, 2016,
#22
Quote by flexiblemile
I don't understand your question. The article is insinuating that the doctor shouldn't have pushed the abortion as an option because the family is happy with their baby.

You said you "can absolutely see how having a Down baby could ruin someone's life" so I am wanting you to tell me how having a Downs Syndrome baby could ruin someone's life.

However, of all the families that I know that have kids with mental problems (downs or other,) most are separated, "staying together for the kids" or dysfunctional in one way or another.

That's like the majority of families, so let's not pretend that it's "mental problem" kids who ruin families.
#23
Quote by qrEE
1.If you can't raise a kid with down syndrome, then you probably are going to have difficulty raising *any* kid and any kid you have will have a really hard life as a result of your failures as a parent, so if you're gonna abort a kid with down syndrome, don't bother having kids. To make it clear though, I'm not saying you shouldn't have kids but that if you're going to be selective about what kind of kid you want to have to the point of aborting an "undesirable", you devalue both the kind of kid you don't want, and the kind of kid you *do* want so you're not going to be a very good parent.

EDIT: I can clarify this further by saying that I don't care if you have kids or not, but if you set the standard of "I don't want to have kids that aren't going to have a good life", then not having kids at all makes more sense than just aborting a kid with down syndrome.

2.Down Syndrome doesn't cause immense physical pain, and the only real psychological pain is because society fucking sucks. You shouldn't abort a fetus because of social stigma, that's just dumb. If you want an example where aborting a fetus for a condition is a good idea, look up "anencephaly", but I'll warn you now the images are graphic and disturbing. If the pain of living is so intense that the baby probably won't make it, abortion is a good idea, but if the idea is "oh, my baby's gonna be weird and people won't like them" then you're being a piece of shit. I'm not saying you can't abort a baby, but that's a bad reason to do it. Your reasoning should be "I don't want a kid", not "I don't want a kid with down syndrome"

3.to add to that last point, the difference between "I don't want a kid right now", and "I don't want a kid with down syndrome" is that the latter is eugenics. Eugenics is very, very bad. We should be looking to preserve the well-being and happiness of all kinds of people, not selectively removing the ones who are going to have it harder. Rather than removing the people that are hurt by society's fucked up ideals, we should be striving to change society's ideals towards something more inclusive and more respectful.


Have fun being liberal and idealistic, you'll find the real world is a very different place.
#24
Quote by Banjocal
Only to people who find it to be bad


all "good" or "bad" statements are conditional, but the condition here is "if you want to preserve the lifespan of the human race and work to increase it, eugenics is very, very bad". If you want humanity to die off, then go right ahead.
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#25
Quote by slapsymcdougal
The child is going to grow into an adult, though.

Likely with an IQ in the 50-60 range.

So the child will fit right in with the rest of society
#26
Quote by qrEE
3.to add to that last point, the difference between "I don't want a kid right now", and "I don't want a kid with down syndrome" is that the latter is eugenics. Eugenics is very, very bad. We should be looking to preserve the well-being and happiness of all kinds of people, not selectively removing the ones who are going to have it harder. Rather than removing the people that are hurt by society's fucked up ideals, we should be striving to change society's ideals towards something more inclusive and more respectful.


whoa whoa, i think this falls short of eugenics. the argument assumes that having a child and "progressing the species" or "furthering society" are the same thing.
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#27
Quote by digman50
Have fun being liberal and idealistic, you'll find the real world is a very different place.


lol, "liberal", that's a good one. Don't assume anything about me because you'll always be wrong.
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#28
Quote by digman50
Personally, I would never have a Down's syndrome child. I know of plenty that have good quality of life, however, I know it would impact my quality of life and that's not something I'd be willing to do when there's an option to have a none-Down's syndrome child.


Will it be a positive impact or a negative impact on your life?
#29
Quote by qrEE
all "good" or "bad" statements are conditional, but the condition here is "if you want to preserve the lifespan of the human race and work to increase it, eugenics is very, very bad". If you want humanity to die off, then go right ahead.
Why you gotta be so rational and spoil the fun
#31
Quote by Banjocal
Why you gotta be so rational and spoil the fun


spoiling the fun *is* my idea of fun. That's why my favorite band is Mr Bungle.
If there is a God, it's me.
#32
Quote by bradulator
You said you "can absolutely see how having a Down baby could ruin someone's life" so I am wanting you to tell me how having a Downs Syndrome baby could ruin someone's life.


That's like the majority of families, so let's not pretend that it's "mental problem" kids who ruin families.



This sounds like a touchy subject for you, is anyone you're close to afflicted with Down's?

You seem to have experience with them yourself so I'm not going to bother listing the symptons since you probably know them already. But any special needs kid will force more constraints on a couple.

The divorce statistics might not be too different between one and the other but special needs parents don't necessarily see divorce as an option due the consequences it might have on their kid. That doesn't mean they're happier. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I agree that having any kind of kid is going to put stress on a relationship but you seem to think that having a special needs kid (downs in this case) does NOT exarcebate the problem. I disagree
#33
Quote by bradulator
Will it be a positive impact or a negative impact on your life?


Negative.

Having a child that is a bit thick would also have a negative impact on my life cause I'd be disappointed. Unfortunately I don't have a choice about that one but I would have the choice with Down's syndrome so I'll do what I can.
#34
Quote by qrEE
lol, "liberal", that's a good one. Don't assume anything about me because you'll always be wrong.


I assume you're real.

Or am I wrong?

#rudeboyshutup
#35
Brad, if you wanna look after a kid for 30 years then by all means do, no one's gonna stop you. I'd just rather not.
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#36
Quote by flexiblemile at #34000816


I agree that having any kind of kid is going to put stress on a relationship but you seem to think that having a special needs kid (downs in this case) does NOT exacerbate the problem. I disagree


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Quote by JustRooster
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#38
You can feel all morally superior for saying you'd optionally raise a child with Down's syndrome, fair play if that's how you feel.

Personally, I wouldn't because I don't want to and have the option not to.

Don't really care if that makes anyone think I'm a bad person, I'll accept that.
#39
Quote by qrEE
1.If you can't raise a kid with down syndrome, then you probably are going to have difficulty raising *any* kid and any kid you have will have a really hard life as a result of your failures as a parent, so if you're gonna abort a kid with down syndrome, don't bother having kids. To make it clear though, I'm not saying you shouldn't have kids but that if you're going to be selective about what kind of kid you want to have to the point of aborting an "undesirable", you devalue both the kind of kid you don't want, and the kind of kid you *do* want so you're not going to be a very good parent.

EDIT: I can clarify this further by saying that I don't care if you have kids or not, but if you set the standard of "I don't want to have kids that aren't going to have a good life", then not having kids at all makes more sense than just aborting a kid with down syndrome.

2.Down Syndrome doesn't cause immense physical pain, and the only real psychological pain is because society fucking sucks. You shouldn't abort a fetus because of social stigma, that's just dumb. If you want an example where aborting a fetus for a condition is a good idea, look up "anencephaly", but I'll warn you now the images are graphic and disturbing. If the pain of living is so intense that the baby probably won't make it, abortion is a good idea, but if the idea is "oh, my baby's gonna be weird and people won't like them" then you're being a piece of shit. I'm not saying you can't abort a baby, but that's a bad reason to do it. Your reasoning should be "I don't want a kid", not "I don't want a kid with down syndrome"

3.to add to that last point, the difference between "I don't want a kid right now", and "I don't want a kid with down syndrome" is that the latter is eugenics. Eugenics is very, very bad. We should be looking to preserve the well-being and happiness of all kinds of people, not selectively removing the ones who are going to have it harder. Rather than removing the people that are hurt by society's fucked up ideals, we should be striving to change society's ideals towards something more inclusive and more respectful.


im not quite sure

but

"People with Down syndrome rarely reproduce. Fifteen to thirty percent of women with trisomy 21 are fertile and they have about a 50% risk of having a child with Down syndrome. There is no evidence of a man with Down syndrome fathering a child."

it's not eugenics because they can't reproduce

or rarely reproduce

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#40
Quote by bradulator
Isn't this kinda like victim blaming?

Everybody gets mistreated. Like you gonna be okay with aborting females because you're gonna hate watching your daughter get harrassed by other dudes?


it's not victim blaming and it's not people with down syndrome's responsibility to teach society to be nice just like it's not women's responsibilty to make sure men behave. but down syndrome presents so many limitations that it's just too unfair to bring them into the world and then they have to live all these limitations. Im more concerned about what happens when they become adults than raising them. my family has a long history of mental disabillities and emotional abuse related to it and it's horrible. I dont have enough faith that society will treat them right, and when they do it goes to the point of fetishisation and exploitation of a disorder that should not exist. people should be accepted but i dont know if it's a good idea to hope people are born with these disabilities.

if i were to abort it'd be because i would not be a good parent at this point in general, so any potential disabilities would not factor into it. if i got to the point where i could raise a kid i probably would not abort if they had downs syndrome. Id try to make them as happy and independent as possible but would feel guilty either way. the fact that i view these kids as "needing protection" even into adulthood probably makes me a shit person.
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