#1
hey guys, so I learned that you can use diminished chords in place of dom7 chords a while ago
example: in G7 you could use Bdim which would just act like a rootless dom7 b9 chord right?

anyways, i was trying to learn about using the altered scale over dom chords and realized that since the altered scale has a b5 in it, does that mean the diminished theory only applies to dom7 chords that don't have an altered 5?
the example i tried was using F# dom chord,subing a g#dim chord and using the F#altered scale.
The C# in the dim chord is the 5 of the F#7 chord, in the altered scale the 5 is a C note, which would be a b5.

anyways, my question being does the theory of using dim chords in place of Dom7 chords apply only if it has a natual 5?
Last edited by enloartworks at Jun 24, 2016,
#2
Bdim7, yes. You can also think of it as just raising the root.

Just break apart your 7th chords to see the constituent triads:

C E G B = C E G and E G B
A C E G = ACE and C E G
G B D F = G B D and B D F

It's pretty common for guitarists to play only the "upper triad" in a 7th chord, especially in funk/jazz styles where pretty much every chord has at least a 7th. Micheal Jackson's "Rock With You" is in Ebm, but the first chord on the guitar is a "Bbm" triad, which makes an Ebm9. Generally works best in the upper register.

As for the altered scale, yes, that fits over dominants with b/# 5. Often the 5th is completely omitted unless it's altered, just so the soloist can use whatever 5ths they want. But when you're taking a scalar approach to harmonies, you should just use the chord tones as your guide. When you get to chords with 9ths and higher, the arpeggio practically a scale already, you just put it in stepwise order. G B D F Ab = G Ab B (C) D (E) F, so depending on how the chord resolves, you can use whatever C and E you want.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jun 24, 2016,
#3
cdgraves thanks for the explanation, so if you were to play F#dom7 chord, with a natural 5,the altered scale wouldn't fit would it? since lets say the bass plays the f# and the guitar plays diminished7 = F#7b9
the altered scale has the altered 5 which would clash with the C#
#4
The alt scale makes alt dominants (7b5 and "7#5" which usually is actually functioning as 7b13).
#5
enlo...I suggest you study: 1-Diminished scales 2-Melodic Minor 3- melodic Patterns

example: C diminished scale: 8-tone scale also known as whole/half dim scale..

C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

Now embedded in this goldmine of a scale you will find some of the following chords:

DMA Dmi D7 D7b9 D7#9 D7b5 D13b9 ...the same named chords are also in F Ab and B

wait..there's MORE....the Chords D7b5 and Ab7b5 / F7b5 and B7b5 are from the TriTone Scale-there are Two such scales embedded in the the diminished scale:

D Eb F# Ab A C--(1 b2 3 b5 5 b7) for D7b5 and A7b5 and F F# A B C Eb for the chords F7b5 and B7b5

The triton is a very cool scale that can be used against any of the above chords and is a very good improv scale to connect many other chords with..

Now there are only THREE diminished scales C Db D..so you can see how versatile this scale can be

Tip: you don't have to play the entire scale to "make it work..all the chords mentioned can be used in arpeggio form-D7=D F# A C..

Yeah its a lot to digest...go slow "one bite at a time"

hope this helps
play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Jun 25, 2016,
#6
Quote by enloartworks
cdgraves thanks for the explanation, so if you were to play F#dom7 chord, with a natural 5,the altered scale wouldn't fit would it? since lets say the bass plays the f# and the guitar plays diminished7 = F#7b9
the altered scale has the altered 5 which would clash with the C#
Strictly speaking, yes - but only if the bassist makes a big thing of the C# .
It's actually not uncommon for a bassist to play a perfect 5th under an altered dominant (I know I've seen it in transcribed bass lines). The altered 5th is unlikely to be held or accented by the soloing instrument, any more than it would be in the bass.
It could be a problem if the chord player (piano or guitar) held the altered 5th in the chord, while the bass went for the P5. But actually only the raised 5th is a problem above a P5 in the bass - forming the notorious jazz "avoid note" (b9 interval with a chord tone other than the root). A flattened 5th in the chord (or melody) would be heard as a #11, if a P5 was audible beneath it.
In any case, you could say the whole point of the altered scale is a juicy dissonance, aiming for resolution on the following (tonic) chord. A brief "avoid note" clash between bass and chord or scale is unlikely to be a big issue.
Sometimes, an altered dom7 will be written with "b13" instead of "#5", still indicating the altered scale, but implying that a P5 could be OK (in the bass at least).
Last edited by jongtr at Jun 26, 2016,
#7
The altered scale is there to be used over any functioning dominant chord to create tension before resolving. Whether the chord is altered or not is down to taste.

No rules when it comes to dissonance, or just music even. Check out Rolling In The Deep, with headphones. The very last note that Henrik Linder plays is meant to clash with the chord from the piano. In fact check this band out anyway!

http://www.dirty-loops.com/video/
#8
Quote by mdc
The altered scale is there to be used over any functioning dominant chord to create tension before resolving. Whether the chord is altered or not is down to taste.
Mm, how so, if 5, 9, 11, and 13 are altered in the alt scale? I don't quite understand where you're coming from.
No rules when it comes to dissonance, or just music even. Check out Rolling In The Deep, with headphones. The very last note that Henrik Linder plays is meant to clash with the chord from the piano. In fact check this band out anyway!
I hear tritone relationship. (piano Eb to bass A)

@general: Music theory's not rules, it's systematic descriptors.
#9
Quote by mdc
The altered scale is there to be used over any functioning dominant chord to create tension before resolving. Whether the chord is altered or not is down to taste.
Kind of, but the purpose of the alterations is not dissonance against the V7 chord, it's chromatic voice-leading on to the tonic. Which means one would (generally) start from the chord: alter the chord in order to get the voice-leading, and then use the same set of notes for improvising.
But you're right that in improvisation one can often choose chromatic passing notes regardless of what the chord of the moment is - it's always about how things resolve.
#10
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Mm, how so, if 5, 9, 11, and 13 are altered in the alt scale? I don't quite understand where you're coming from.

People overthink these ideas of using more interesting scales. I don't know why it has to appear so complicated theory wise. It's not.

The work starts with transcribing jazz solos. Sound first.
#11
another question i thought of was, that if you use a dom7b9 chord, can it resolve to minor and major chords?
I was told to use a natural 9 if it's resolving to a maj chord and another person said it doesn't matter if you use the b9 you can still resolve to maj?
#12
The short answer is yes.

If this interests you, it will be worth your while studying jazz harmony, and the importance of the ii-V7-I and iim7b5-V7-i in this genre.
#13
mdc
the way i see it is that for example if you use G half whole scale over the V chord then it's using the b9, which can resolve to a maj chord as well
vs using the V7 chord with a natural 9 which occurs naturally within the Maj scale
#15
mdc i'd say so, one has a more classical resolution to my ears, the one that solves to minor at least. That one comes from the Harmonic Minor scale i think that's why:
#16
I'd say take a step back and put these scales side by side with the chord tones. As said above, it's not about strict conformity, but about tension. All the "out" notes in these goofy scales can be looked at as chromatic alterations of the chord tones.

So let's compare the G7 with some of the CST scales that you might see over it:

G7 = G B D F
G alt = G Ab A# B C# Eb F G (enharmonic to Ab melodic min. "misspelled" to retain the chord tones)

So in this one, you have a half step with root (G and Ab) and also with the third (A# and B natural). The natural 5th is absent, but you have a half step on either side of it. And notice where G7b9 typically resolves: Cminor. That altered 5th puts you a half step above and below the C, as well, so you can approach the resolution with maximum tension both ascending and descending. The Eb makes for a strong resolution on the C, as well.

Now G half/whole Dim:
G B D F
G Ab A# B C# D E F G

You have easy chromatic alterations here on every chord tone: G and Ab, B and A#, D and C#. (I'd say F and E, but that's not really a resolution tendency). You can very easily use this "scale" to play a half step trill on each of the tones. It will sound extremely Dominant, but won't sound like you're running a scale. And your natural 5th is intact. And of course consider those altered tones in terms of resolving to C.

It's easy to get a "forest for the trees" problem with CST, but always remember that the scales are derived from the chords. It's best not to think of which scales "fit" the chord, but how the scale interacts with the chord. When you think in terms of chord tones, you can use these scales without them sounding like goofy scales. They just sound like your playing with the chord tones, which is really the whole point.
#17
Quote by cdgraves

It's easy to get a "forest for the trees" problem with CST, but always remember that the scales are derived from the chords. It's best not to think of which scales "fit" the chord, but how the scale interacts with the chord.
Yes - and with these dom7 scales in particular, how the the chord-scale resolves to the next chord. That's the whole purpose of the alterations in the first place, after all. Both those scales offer as many chromatic moves as one could want on to chord tones on the following chord.
#18
^Exactly.

Melodies imply harmony, not vice versa. Playing an altered scale IMPLIES a fully altered dominant chord melodically, and since that's a perfectly logical alteration/substitution for a regular dominant chord, it works (pretty well I'd argue). Whether or not the band is playing altered tensions becomes a secondary consideration, because we are making a logical change that still lines up our expectations for harmonic behavior.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#19
cdgraves
thanks for the explanation, is there a reason that it typically resolves to c minor and not major?
#20
Quote by enloartworks
cdgraves
thanks for the explanation, is there a reason that it typically resolves to c minor and not major?
Ab is in the C minor scale.
Last edited by NeoMvsEu at Jul 2, 2016,
#21
hmm, still a bit confused on that,
so over all it's seeing how the G alt dominant chord resolved to C chord.
can it work to a major as well?
#22
enloartworks
It's really up to you to make a given scale work with a given chord. You don't have to stick hard and fast to what will preciselty go with a chord ... and that's half the fun. You just need to make sure you resolve properly. You can groove over a dom7 chord (e.g. G7), and play G half-whole or G whole-half (i.e. diminished scale), but the latter introduces the b5 and #5 from G, so an obvious "get out" point would be to end a G whole-half lick on say the #5 amd then move to the 5. But the half-whole scale can be shifted up in minor 3rds (G half-whole, Bb half-whole ...) against the G7 chord more successfully than G whole-half, probably because this introduces a maj7 interval against the G.

And yes, you can use G alt to set up C maj ... all the time it's how you resolve to make it work or not.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jul 2, 2016,
#23
Well that b9 (locality G7) resolves downwards from Ab (scale degree b6 in C) to G (scale degree 5 in C). 5 is not the tone that determines major or minor, so Vb9-I works pretty nicely.

Borrowed chords and tones are a thing, and they're used to color passages.

The overall function is most important, and THAT is V7-I/i.
#24
NeoMvsEu thank you for your reply, so the last tine "V7-I/i" meaning V7 resolving to the I minor or maj correct? just making sure i got that right sincei 'm not the smartest when it comes to numerals lol

very cool Jerry, gonna try some new things as well thanks again
#25
Once you have it down, you can explore how it's possible to resolve to all 24 keys from the three diminished seventh chords in music.

I assume you understand how that is possible due to the tritone interval.

That should clear up any doubts of whether you can resolve to major or minor or not!
Last edited by mdc at Jul 2, 2016,
#26
Quote by enloartworks
hmm, still a bit confused on that,
so over all it's seeing how the G alt dominant chord resolved to C chord.
can it work to a major as well?


The altered scale contains Eb, which is in the Cm triad. b3 - 1 is very common in melodies. In the case of the half/whole diminished scale, it'd be a b9 with a major 13, so more likely to resolve to major. It's helpful to look at these scales as big arpeggios. If you put the altered scale in order of 3rds, it's a G7b5 b9 b13. Of course either chord can resolve either way. Part of the fun is setting up an expectation and then doing something different.
#27
enloartworks
Quote by enloartworks
hmm, still a bit confused on that,
so over all it's seeing how the G alt dominant chord resolved to C chord.
can it work to a major as well?
Yes. Altered dominants are more common in minor keys, but they work fine in major as well.
#28
Quote by cdgraves
The altered scale contains Eb, which is in the Cm triad. b3 - 1 is very common in melodies. In the case of the half/whole diminished scale, it'd be a b9 with a major 13, so more likely to resolve to major. It's helpful to look at these scales as big arpeggios. If you put the altered scale in order of 3rds, it's a G7b5 b9 b13. Of course either chord can resolve either way. Part of the fun is setting up an expectation and then doing something different.
idk I'd interpret that alt scale as G7#5 b9 #11 with D#-E resolution in major.

Chord scale theories are overcomplicated
#29
cdgraves
Quote by cdgraves
The altered scale contains Eb, which is in the Cm triad. b3 - 1 is very common in melodies. In the case of the half/whole diminished scale, it'd be a b9 with a major 13, so more likely to resolve to major. It's helpful to look at these scales as big arpeggios. If you put the altered scale in order of 3rds, it's a G7b5 b9 b13. Of course either chord can resolve either way. Part of the fun is setting up an expectation and then doing something different.


so in the half/whole scale, since it has a b9 and a major13, what makes it more likely to resolve to a major?
#30
Quote by enloartworks
cdgraves

so in the half/whole scale, since it has a b9 and a major13, what makes it more likely to resolve to a major?

The overall progression and melody. The scale you choose to use over the V is up to you.
#31
Quote by enloartworks
cdgraves

so in the half/whole scale, since it has a b9 and a major13, what makes it more likely to resolve to a major?


The 13th is a common tone with the chord of resolution, and in general staying closer to diatonic is easier on the ears. Playing "out" with non-diatonic harmony and melody choices is what gives a lot of jazz that really abstract, angular sound.

But harmony overall comes down largely to voice leading, so it's mostly a matter of crafting good harmonic lines, regardless of how closely they stick to the key signature. You can play the same changes two different ways and get two very different sounding renditions. Likely, the one with smoother and more interesting voice leading will sound better, and give you better material for soloing. Good harmonic lines provide plenty of guidance for melodic lines, and can help you focus on complementing harmony rather than simply conforming to it.

Remember you're not playing chord tone Whack-a-Mole. The idea is to do something more interesting than just avoid the wrong notes.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 4, 2016,
#32
Quote by enloartworks
another question i thought of was, that if you use a dom7b9 chord, can it resolve to minor and major chords? ...[ ]...
Up to now, I had thought only Jimi Hendrix was allowed to play that chord, at least with a E root.

e-1___3
B-2___3
G-3___1
D-4___2
A-5___2
E-6___0 = = = "Chug, Chug, Squawk", "Chug, Chug, Squawk"......"Purple Haze is in my mind".....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 11, 2016,
#35
hey guys anyone have any scales that would fit when soloing over dominant chords resolving to dominant chords.. example D7 to G7 to C7 etc?
#36
Quote by enloartworks
hey guys anyone have any scales that would fit when soloing over dominant chords resolving to dominant chords.. example D7 to G7 to C7 etc?

Depends on the context. If it's a dominant chain, analyze the progression. For example let's say the song is in the key of C major and the progression is E7-A7-D7-G7-C.

The E7 would typically resolve to A minor so A harmonic or melodic minor would work. The A7 would typically resolve to D minor so D harmonic or melodic minor would work. The D7 would typically resolve to G major so G major would work. And of course over G7 and C, C major will work. Just playing "Mixolydian" over everything will of course also work. But my point is, some of the dominants will have more of a minor key sound and others will have more of a major key sound (because as I said, E7 in the key of C major will typically resolve to Am and A7 will typically resolve to Dm, and D7 will typically resolve to G major) so you may want to take that into account.


(Late) edit: Playing Mixolydian over everything would be the same as treating every dominant chord as coming from a major key (E7 would come from A major, A7 would come from D major, D7 would come from G major, etc). Another thing would be just using the key scale and altering it to fit the chords. So in our progression over E7 you would use C major but replace the G with a G#, over A7 you would use C major but replace the C with a C#, and over D7 you would use C major but replace the F with an F#. This way you wouldn't really need to even think about scales, you would only think about chord tones and the notes between the chord tones would fit the key.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
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Hartke HyDrive 210c
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Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 15, 2016,
#37
Literally endless possibilities as you seem to like the theory side.

Minorization

This is used by players like Pat Martino and Grant Green. Play the Dorian mode a 5th above the root which is Mixolydian in a guitar friendly shape.

You could also play the melodic minor a fifth above the root of your dom7 chord to produce Lydian dominant sounds.

Modal approach

You may want to have a nose at George Russell's book, Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation. No, I haven't read it.

Coltrane Turnaround

Use b5 subs for each dominant chord to create an alternative turnaround sequence.

For your example, you can apply:

Ab arp - Db arp - Gb arp - resolve to Fmaj7

You'll create some exciting altered tensions with this turnaround.

Listen to jazz and transcribe

Jim Mullen is good listening. He used to play a shitty old guitar through a bass amp, he can't use a pick, so uses his thumb. He doesn't know any theory. He just has a good ear!

So basically, if you can hear Jazz in your head and sing the notes when your improvising, you're on to a winner.

Which basically renders all information in this entire forum useless.

There's only 12 notes... in western music.
Last edited by mdc at Jul 15, 2016,
#38
4:30 - 6:05*. *Guthrie basically owns the trade offs.

It's finally happened, have a nice day.