Page 5 of 6
#161
I don't think they really need to be added. Michael Weikath (Helloween) once said in an interview that he used 'Lights Out' by UFO as a template for 'How Many Tears' (Walls of Jericho). Only structurally I would assume though, not stylistically.

Wishbone Ash is often being noted as one of the first bands to use twin lead guitars and were very influential in that twin lead style. I think the obvious album for them is Argus. I would probably argue for it to be put in essentials too. From Wikipedia:
The album features a blend of progressive rock, folk, and hard rock, and is considered a landmark album in the progression of twin-lead guitar harmonisation later adopted by bands such as Thin Lizzy and Iron Maiden
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#162
After much obsessive tweaking of minor details, I am now fairly satisfied with the descriptions in the melodic death metal section. Among other changes, I eliminated use of the term melodeath. If anyone of you cares enough to look and takes issue with something I wrote, let me know.
Last edited by P1ayingW1thF1re at Sep 16, 2016,
#163
Reposting what's still needed to do:

Genres to do:
-Proto Metal (included is proto heavy metal) WIP
-Heavy Metal (included is heavy metal, NWOBHM, Speed metal, Power Metal)
-Death Metal (included is death metal, death/doom, melodic death metal) WIP
-Black Metal (included is 2nd wave black metal)
-Thrash Metal (included is thrash metal, death/thrash, black/thrash, crossover)
-Doom Metal (included is trad doom metal, stoner, funeral, sludge)
-Grindcore

I am working proto metal and I edited my list so far
#164
I'm sort of surprised by all the dislike for Left Hand Path, although I'm pretty sure I've seen that sentiment here multiples times before. I feel like it should still be in Essential due to it's influence, importance to the scene, and it's quality being higher than almost every other swedeath band. If consensus is a definite no for it I'll get rid of it.

If Infester is going to the Essentials then might as well have Gorguts and Demilich in their as well.

I agree with the sentiments on Death, but due to their iconic nature I added them to Essentials, now they are in further listening with the albums suggested.

I removed Hypocrisy and Brutality but kept the others you mentioned, PWF, since I feel like their quality is high enough to belong in Further Listening. If more consensus is to remove the others as well, though, I'll git 'em.

Here's the Death Metal list edited. I'm debating removing Obituary and Pestilence as well. I haven't gotten to Death/Doom yet.

Death Metal

Essentials:
Atheist - Piece Of Time
Autopsy - Severed Survival
Bolt Thrower – Realms Of Chaos ~ War Master
Deicide – Deicide ~ Legion
Demigod – Slumber of Sullen Eyes
Demilich – Nespithe
Dismember – Like An Everflowing Stream
Gorguts – Erosion of Sanity ~ Obscura
Immolation – Dawn Of Possession ~ Here In after
Incantation – Onward To Golgotha ~ Mortal Throne Of Nazarene
Infester – To The Depths Of Degradation
Massacra - The Final Holocaust ~ Enjoy The Violence
Morbid Angel – Altars Of Madness ~ Blessed Are The Sick
Suffocation - Human Waste ~ Effigy of the Forgotten

Further Listening:
Adramalech - Psychostasia
Atrocity - Todessehnsucht
Bolt Thrower – The IVth Crusade
Cryptopsy – None So Vile ~ Blasphemy Made Flesh
Darkthrone – A Soulside Journey
Death - Scream Bloody Gore ~ Leprosy
Immolation – Unholy Cult ~ Close To A World Below
Incantation - Diabolical Holocaust
Malevolent Creation – The Ten Commandments ~ Retribution
Master – Master ~ On the Seventh Day
Molested – Blod-Draum
Morpheus Descends – Ritual Of Infinity
Nocturnus – The Key
Obituary – Slowly We Rot ~ Cause Of Death
Possessed – Seven Churches
Purtenance – Member of Immortal damnation
Rottrevore - Iniquitous

Last edited by Morphogenesis26 at Sep 18, 2016,
#165
There's a death/thrash section that Pestilence could fit into when thrash gets started. Ok with removing them on death metal.

Obituary were important for being one of bands at the front of the scene, while their quality is good, I don't view them as essential. I could lose them. You can wait and see if anyone disagrees if you'd like.


Ok, for Left Hand Path..It's a good album, and I'd preferably like one of these bands added for Swedeath (despite if they're disliked):

Dismember
Entombed
Carnage
Nihilist

All other bands irrelevant to me. i want the swedeath sound and riffs so someone can get a sense of it, but I don't want all of them on the list. At least one of those will do. That way people can still delve deeper into it because we know what other bands in the scene sounded like, so they can get recommendations based on that.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Saving lists here, please check to make sure it's the right list:

Kyto: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/redirect/post?p=34131723
PWF: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1704936&page=3&per-page=40


Ok so I missed a lot of the "melodeath" vs "gothenburg" scene, can someone give me a quick update on why it's changed? (Also wonderful work guys, these lists are actually coming together quite nicely.)


AND! If you guys feel like the descriptions need a tune-up (outside of PWF's because he wrote his), then by all means give it a go and write a new one. Just one paragraph, like if you feel you could word it better or anything along those lines.
#166
If we are gunna pick one Swede death band it should be Dismember. Like an Everflowing Stream is a perfect 10
#167
severed-metal Yeah that's the correct list. Thinking about doing a more in-depth write-up for the power metal list but eh, they're all pretty adequate.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#168
Re: Swedish death metal -- I just gave myself a Left Hand Path refresher. To my ears, it sounds like forgettable, brainless bashing with occasional, obnoxious guitar solos. Maybe I don't "get" it, but why listen to just a bunch of punky, chunky "Swedish riffs" when Like an Ever Flowing Stream and Dark Recollections offer that and more? Those two albums are (at their better moments) memorable and atmospheric, and they seem more artistically "serious" than Left Hand Path. Of the two, I prefer Like an Ever Flowing Stream, but I have spent more time with that one.

I lack the experience to propose other Swedish bands like Grotesque or Nihilist.

Re: Hypocrisy and Brutality -- Eh, I guess including them wouldn't be a crime. I'm just not a fan of large lists in general. You folks decide.

Re: Nocturnus and Master -- That's fine severed.

Re: Pestilence and Obituary -- I am not qualified to comment on these bands.

Re: Melodic death metal list -- I've been editing my original post instead of reposting the list, so yes, you have linked to the correct post severed. I am still considering a couple of albums for inclusion, so I might make some more changes, but the list is more or less finished.

Regarding terminology, melodeath is (obviously) a contraction of melodic death metal, so I think that it's a poor name for the music to which it usually refers. I opted for the more neutral "Gothenburg sound" instead. (I might be beating a dead horse, but you asked.)
Last edited by P1ayingW1thF1re at Sep 18, 2016,
#169
Nihilist was important for the development of Swedish death metal, and are far and away the best Swedish death metal, but they don't really represent the sound a great deal.

Obituary have to stay IMO. Those first two albums are pretty much faultless. Whether they go in essential or further listening is up for debate but I definitely think they should be there.
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#170
Dismember will be kept and Entombed left off. I gave LHP and LAEFS a listen through again earlier and can see LAEFS being much more related and influential to metal music than LHP, as well as the consensus being in favor of LAEFS.

Obituary will stay. I'm leaving Hypocrisy and Brutality off since they aren't necessary to the list. Pestilence will, as severed pointed out, be for the Death/Thrash. Any inclusions anyone can think of for the Death Metal list that aren't already on there?
#171
^ Good list. I would add these (I've listed them in the order of how important I think it is to include them):

Sinister - Cross the Styx
Monstrosity - Imperial Doom
Ripping Corpse - Dreaming with the Dead
The Chasm - Procession/Conjuration/Spell
Decapitated - Winds of Creation

I think the first 3 absolutely need to be in the list, The Chasm & Decapitated not quite as essential

Also, you have Incantation - Diabolical Holocaust, instead of Diabolical Conquest :P

Presumably the reason you don't have Asphyx or Autopsy - Mental Funeral on this list is because they will be in a death/doom section? Personally I would put Mortal Throne of Nazarene in that section too. And of course Cianide.
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#172
Would Ripping Corpse fit into death/thrash? I remember it having a thrash sound, but clearly not strictly thrash.


I think Sinister can fit into the essentials list. The others I'm eh about. The Chasm are really good, so if there's a spot in further listening then it's solid.


Also noticed Possessed in further listening? They were one of the most important bands for death metal, easy. They can go into death/thrash and I'll make a note in there.

Also feel like we should mention tech death. But then I feel it's a slippery slope into mentioning brutal death metal too. Maybe a small section. What's the general thoughts on that?

At this rate we've got black/thrash (which might be able to be ignored, but what about Nifelheim? Sniffleheim I'd say if they weren't added!), but it's kind of niche whereas death/thrash has its roots everywhere. In that regard, tech death doesn't seem important.
#173
Maybe whip up a rough example of a tech death list so we can look at it and pick it apart.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#174
Uh sure, off the top of my head some i'be heard touted as tech death:

Origin
Mithras
Necrophagist
Obscura
Spawn of Possession
Cynic (maybe? Might be better off somewhere else.)
Decrepit Birth
Hour of Penance
Monstrosity - imperial Doom (seen toted as tech death)
Gorguts could fit in here too
Deeds of Flesh

The traditional tech death sound is gay stuff like...I dunno. Whatever the wilddy diddly's of the world are doing whIle they grunt.

But I can see an early tech death sound and then what they are now is something along the lines of...Pyrexia maybe?

I can look into it. Would be a place for some of the bands that aren't exactly death metal and spawned some of the more technically focused side of death metal.
#175
Why no Asphyx? I see some death/doom mentioned ...
tech death is boring ...but if tech also includes the more prog/avnt garde stuff, Gorguts, Cynic & Atheist (later) could go in that...
#176
^ Asphyx are in the death / doom list. Morphogenesis posted a draft on the previous page of the thread. (Though maybe you knew that and I misunderstood your post.)

I've only heard Cross the Styx and Imperial Doom a couple of times each, but they did not make the impression of being essential.

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

I am against tech death and brutal death metal lists, but my main reason is that I think the music is not very good (I say that even though I used to like a fair amount of the stuff...I guess I'm a traitor...) Here are the best arguments that I can articulate for excluding such lists:

(Arguments 1 and 2 are stronger than 3 and 4.)
  1. I imagine that the reason for including such a list(s) is to help or catch the interest of potential newcomers who like that kind of music. I have already said this, but I don't see the need to be exhaustive since there will be a recommendations thread.

  2. Most of the stuff is still fundamentally death metal, so if an album is not good enough to be on the death metal further listening list, then it's not good enough period. For this reason, I tried to keep the standards of the melodious death metal list consistent with the death metal list. (The Gothenburg sound list is somewhat lower in quality, but a comparison is less appropriate there because the inherent capability of the style is different.) Along the same lines, a technical thrash list would have a similar standard to the general thrash list, because the classics of technical thrash are classics of thrash in general (I'm not a thrash guy, but I can think of Coroner and Obliveon).

  3. Tech death and brutal death metal have not stood the test of time for very long (relatively).

  4. Many tech death and brutal death metal bands descended from bands that are already on the death metal list: Mithras takes significant influence from Morbid Angel, Necrophagist from Suffocation, Obscura from Death, and Decrepit Birth from Suffocation and Death.
All of that being said, we could probably create an acceptable list if that's what people want.
Last edited by P1ayingW1thF1re at Sep 20, 2016,
#178
I can see the points in #1, and having a more-grounded core sound to death metal and then not including variations like tech or brutal death metal shouldn't inherently interfere with anything. Might just ignore it since the old stuff that's considered tech death is already in the death metal list.

The way I see it is. Melodic Death Metal is to melodeath as Technical Death Metal is to tech death. Where the former genres have a more core focused death metal sound, the latter are niche genres with a particular sound.
#179
You can put Heavy Load's debut in proto metal if you want, but I still think the other two should be in heavy.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#180
I think Decapitated - Winds of Creation needs to be somewhere in the tech-death list. Seriously, Suffocation aside, Winds of Creation is number 1. Ripping Corpse can probably go in death/thrash. Not sure about putting Imperial Doom down as tech-death. But Nocturnus and Atrocity definitely are tech-death.
O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ!

The music winners listen to
#181
Been busy with things. Any lists done? Hopefully I'll get some time this weekend to work on the black metal list. Maybe today. Probably not.

EDIT: I will draw up a list for tech death. Likely will just include the post 2000 stuff and keep stuff like Gorguts/Demilich with death metal. I might include Cynic, but they're so weird and out of place. Might be able to fit somewhere else, we'll see. I'd like them somewhere. Could just go into death metal and be done with it.
#182
doom and funeral look pretty good

sludge and stoner i dont have much experience with
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#183
Doom needs a new intro. It's too weird having other doom variations significantly longer but doom is one sentence. In theory I'd like to have a brief history of influences included and then important founder bands then sound description.

I was thinking about what the main difference between us and wikipedia would be in terms of metal genre descriptions, and I want to make ours somewhat reminiscent of what the forum tastes are (which someone in this thread mentioned, don't remember which one of your golden bastards said it!), quality control (get fucked pirate/viking metal). Also to not be as wordy. History should be brief as possible. Significant things mostly, one thing I really liked about the metal rec thread descriptions.


Anyways, still busy and all that. Just found some time tonight so I did the other thing (hey look at the sticky) and just saying that this is still going on just slowed down significantly. Not like we've gotten much more traffic outside of older guys coming in anyways.
#185
Can I still ask for recs here? How things change.

I've been listening to the new Oranssi Pazuzu album a lot and am looking for similar morsels besides yer Deathspells Omega and Altars of Plague.
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#186
Well, when I get the free time this thing will ordered and locked. Then since we have such little traffic you can ask for recs on the first page instead of going to the thread that so few used. ;__;


Are you ok with it being a bit more artsy or being abrasive? or how's your taste changed, duncan donuts?
#187
Out of curiosity, when is the list of albums gonna be finished and updated? Cos I'm really interested to see it in its' final form
#188
If this is an FAQs thread, is there going to be a list of FAQs on the front page of the thread? Here are some good metal FAQs:

Do I have to worship Satan to listen to metal?
--No. You can also worship Pagan or Chaos deities or Kristen.

Is Far Away from the Sun or The Somberlain better?
--Yes.

I want to get into X subgenre. Where do I start?
-Hmm... if only there was a list of recommendations here...

Why do black metal bands wear spikes and makeup?
--Because they don't have significant others.

I like the music of X band but don't like the screaming.
--That isn't a question.

My parents say listening to metal music makes you evil. Am I evil?
--Probably. To be safe, you better do something evil to prove it.

Is X band metal or not?
--If you have to ask, probably not.

Why won't my girlfriend go to metal shows with me?
--Don't lie to us; we know you don't have one.

Is it true that when Dead shot himself, they made soup with his brain?
--Not true at all. They made stew and it was awful.

I don't agree with this list. Can you change X, Y, Z, etc?
--Why don't you go and make your own list then?

Do black metal and black coffee go well together?
--Sometimes.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#189
Any of the Q&A stuff (which I should hold sometime soon then post in the "read before posting" thread), will be put in there. It will eventually
be the metal forum faq (although I hate 'faq')

Quote by supertom1
Out of curiosity, when is the list of albums gonna be finished and updated? Cos I'm really interested to see it in its' final form


No idea. I have work and school right now, so most of my time is used up and I don't really want to come to this forum to work on lists truthfully. I'd rather shoot the shit in the IRC or make a band thread or something. Anything but more work.

Essentially what I want done is better/more consistent format, a better layout for presentation, youtube playlist for each the lists, and then that's about it. So what we're doing is taking pre-existing lists and getting rid of some of the less important bands, adjusting genre descriptions where needed. It's more of a new user thing than anything else.

My approach to making these lists is to simply not put incredible exceptions in there. Bands that created an incredible album after the initial wave (e.g., Scald). New users are going to get a snippet of doom metal from Scald and think this is what doom is. They need to know that Scald is an incredible high point for doom. The trail comes before the peak.

That being said it does take some time to get these things through. I could simply tell people that their voices don't matter and just do it myself, but I don't know everything and want people's inputs towards what should be included, as this reflects the forum not myself. The more users take part in this, the faster it gets done.
#190
Should we just do the essential lists and cut the further listening lists?

Also I'm assuming there's a cut-off date, 2008 or 2009 presumably?
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#191
I would like that, but I'm curious what other people think too. My biggest gripes with the older lists was that in the older rec threads, there were just giant lists of bands with no direction. Then with NFA's list there was an added comprehensiveness, and parsing of a bigger list with some moderation of quality control.

With the new lists I'd like them to be briefer than what they are now, but I don't want you guys to lose out on the hard work put in so far. Especially with you, morph, and PWF.
#192
I'm fine removing them and trimming down the lists. I don't even know what to do with the further listening section of heavy metal, been thinking about it for weeks It's just all over the place.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


Last edited by Kytokinesis at Oct 22, 2016,
#193
Quote by severed-metal


No idea. I have work and school right now, so most of my time is used up and I don't really want to come to this forum to work on lists truthfully. I'd rather shoot the shit in the IRC or make a band thread or something. Anything but more work.

Essentially what I want done is better/more consistent format, a better layout for presentation, youtube playlist for each the lists, and then that's about it. So what we're doing is taking pre-existing lists and getting rid of some of the less important bands, adjusting genre descriptions where needed. It's more of a new user thing than anything else.

My approach to making these lists is to simply not put incredible exceptions in there. Bands that created an incredible album after the initial wave (e.g., Scald). New users are going to get a snippet of doom metal from Scald and think this is what doom is. They need to know that Scald is an incredible high point for doom. The trail comes before the peak.

That being said it does take some time to get these things through. I could simply tell people that their voices don't matter and just do it myself, but I don't know everything and want people's inputs towards what should be included, as this reflects the forum not myself. The more users take part in this, the faster it gets done.


Ah fair enough man
#194
Quote by severed-metal
Are you ok with it being a bit more artsy or being abrasive? or how's your taste changed, duncan donuts?


Either's fine, but I particularly like the new Oranssi's morphing, elastic sound. My taste in metal is mostly limited to old favourites now, haven't been excited by a new discovery in years.
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#195
I would contribute to this project more than I have, but I am unqualified to edit most of the lists.
Quote by severed-metal
My approach to making these lists is to simply not put incredible exceptions in there. Bands that created an incredible album after the initial wave (e.g., Scald). New users are going to get a snippet of doom metal from Scald and think this is what doom is. They need to know that Scald is an incredible high point for doom. The trail comes before the peak.
I understand your point, but I disagree about omitting such bands from the lists. Personally, I would want to know the best of the best right away, even if the best is stylistically atypical. Yes, sometimes listeners need experience and context to appreciate challenging, highly evolved, or atypical albums (if they don't "get it," they can simply try again later), but the "trail before the peak" analogy does not always apply. And if you are concerned that, for example, people will think Scald is typical doom, then you could note in the list that that is not the case.
I would like that, but I'm curious what other people think too. My biggest gripes with the older lists was that in the older rec threads, there were just giant lists of bands with no direction. Then with NFA's list there was an added comprehensiveness, and parsing of a bigger list with some moderation of quality control.

With the new lists I'd like them to be briefer than what they are now, but I don't want you guys to lose out on the hard work put in so far. Especially with you, morph, and PWF.
Like you, I dislike giant, directionless lists, especially ones for newcomers. I'm not necessarily against deleting the further listening sections, but I can't say for certain whether I support the idea or not.

And don't worry about hurting my feelings or anything, haha. I might have an opinion about what stays and what goes, though.
#196
Quote by duncang
Either's fine, but I particularly like the new Oranssi's morphing, elastic sound. My taste in metal is mostly limited to old favourites now, haven't been excited by a new discovery in years.


Interesting. I've heard that quite a few times this year from older metal listeners. Can't say I blame them, it's harder to stay in touch with sifting through the releases unless you have a lot of spare time. Even then it's not usually a big payoff like it was when people came into metal.

Well, Ruins of Beverast came out with Blood Vaults a year or two ago, otherwise you've got Urfaust with their upcoming album. Some other considerations:

Murmuure - Murmuure
Cult of Fire - Ascetic Meditation of Death (the one with all the sanskrit characters, otherwise check out their latest EP, also less focus on being dissonant)
White Medal - Lyke Wake
Aluk Todolo- Voix
Condor - Duin/Sangreal
Howls of Ebb - Cursus Impasse

oh and Alcest came out with an album not too long ago. Don't remember if you're a fan or not, but something to look into anyways!
#197
Quote by severed-metal
Interesting. I've heard that quite a few times this year from older metal listeners. Can't say I blame them, it's harder to stay in touch with sifting through the releases unless you have a lot of spare time. Even then it's not usually a big payoff like it was when people came into metal.

Well, Ruins of Beverast came out with Blood Vaults a year or two ago, otherwise you've got Urfaust with their upcoming album. Some other considerations:

Murmuure - Murmuure
Cult of Fire - Ascetic Meditation of Death (the one with all the sanskrit characters, otherwise check out their latest EP, also less focus on being dissonant)
White Medal - Lyke Wake
Aluk Todolo- Voix
Condor - Duin/Sangreal
Howls of Ebb - Cursus Impasse

oh and Alcest came out with an album not too long ago. Don't remember if you're a fan or not, but something to look into anyways!


Cheers for these! Any reason that album Duin starts with the boys doing scale practice?
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
#200
Quote by duncang
Either's fine, but I particularly like the new Oranssi's morphing, elastic sound. My taste in metal is mostly limited to old favourites now, haven't been excited by a new discovery in years.


I'm your old favorite
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one