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#1
major 7th is in the major key so you add the actual 7th of that key, but dominant 7th is not in that key, and you add the 10th(chromatically).
#2
Quote by neccesity
major 7th is in the major key so you add the actual 7th of that key, but dominant 7th is not in that key, and you add the 10th(chromatically).


What is that supposed to even mean?

Major seventh is a major chord with an added major seventh. Dominant seventh is a major chord with an added minor seventh. In a major key, the diatonic maj7 chords are I and IV, and the diatonic dom7 chord is V.
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#4
The dominant seventh was traditionally used for dominant function chords, as in starting on the fifth scale degree.

In C major, the fifth scale degree is G.

G major is G B D.

The minor seventh on the dominant chord creates a tritone between the leading tone B (which resolves up to C) with the minor 7th interval, F (which resolves down to E). The next chord after is usually the tonic (the main key's chord), so C major in this case.

TL;DR - dominant seventh is an extension on dominant-function chords to promote movement to the next chord (the tonic).
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you're acting like you have perfect pitch or something
#6
Quote by neccesity
major 7th is in the major key so you add the actual 7th of that key, but dominant 7th is not in that key, and you add the 10th(chromatically).
I have a simplistic way of looking at it, (I think)

A "Dominant chord" is the "V" chord. A "V" chord, (or V7), will only contain notes the in the key /scale it's being used.

So, the C major scale contains an F natural. It's 3 major chords are I (C), IV (F), & V (G).

G major as a simple triad, only contains notes within the C major scale (G, B, & D). If we extend the chord with a 7th, the only choice we have in the C major scale is F natural. Thus we get a b7th or minor 7th if you prefer, but only as it relates to the key of G major, which has the F# needed to form a maj7th chord.

I hope that's understandable. Sometimes I try to explain stuff just to see if I can...
#7
Quote by Kevätuhri
What is that supposed to even mean?

Major seventh is a major chord with an added major seventh. Dominant seventh is a major chord with an added minor seventh. In a major key, the diatonic maj7 chords are I and IV, and the diatonic dom7 chord is V.
Designating the 7th as "major or minor", sort of interferes with traditional notation where a "minor 7th chord", indicates the position of the 3rd. If the OP understands that, all is good, if not....?

I'm all for calling a 7th either "major" or "flat", but not "minor".

Incidentally, a standard "minor 7th chord", also contains the "flat 7th".
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 8, 2016,
#9
Quote by Captaincranky
A "Dominant chord" is the "V" chord. A "V" chord, (or V7), will only contain notes the in the key /scale it's being used.
Counterexample: in minor, say C minor, V is also sometimes used because the third of the dominant chord leads to tonic as the leading tone. A piece doesn't change to G major all of a sudden (except when it does, but that's beside the point); the major chord with root G in the context of C minor points strongly back to C minor with its notes.

G: G-B-D, B is the third and leads up to tonic.

This (using B-natural vs. B-flat) is a common sort of harmonic alteration in tonal classical music for voice leading purposes, but is still used nowadays to some extent.

TL;DR/IOW 1: dominant function is the established strong way to return to tonic. The minor seventh further encourages this movement. The seventh's minor quality has nothing to do with the key of G major, but with the chord root note G.

On seventh nomenclature, minor and flat are both acceptable. The way I learned the dom7 name in school was actually major, minor 7th.
And if I'm talking about 1-b3-5-b7, I'll always call it the minor seventh chord. It's a minor chord with a minor seventh, and saying minor twice is a bit superfluous. Flat 7 sounds more ambiguous to my ears, but as long as you can communicate the same ideas to anyone you're working with you should be alright.

TL;DR 2: minor 7 and flat 7 mean the same thing relative to the chord root.

OP, btw: diatonic is another way to say "in the key". As in, B-flat is not diatonic to C major, but F is.
#10
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Counterexample: in minor, say C minor, V is also sometimes used because the third of the dominant chord leads to tonic as the leading tone. A piece doesn't change to G major all of a sudden (except when it does, but that's beside the point); the major chord with root G in the context of C minor points strongly back to C minor with its notes.T
I was so hoping that since you took the time to quote me, you'd also be inclined to tell me something I didn't know.

Quote by NeoMvsEu
G: G-B-D, B is the third and leads up to tonic.
And as hard as it is to admit, Gsus4 will do virtually the same as F# diminished, and sound a whole lot more soothing doing it.

The question here was posed, not about a how leading tone is formed with a technically "out of key chord", using the "harmonic minor scale", but a rather simpler, and more direct question about the "dominant 7th", and I'm assuming it related directly to the "V" in a major scale.

Quote by NeoMvsEu
This (using B-natural vs. B-flat) is a common sort of harmonic alteration in tonal classical music for voice leading purposes, but is still used nowadays to some extent.
Gee, and "the blues" farts in the face of western diatonic music by using all "dominant 7th chords".

We don't actually have to go further in explanation of the 7th in those chords, as it will always be a b7th in relation to the 5th step of any key it's been pulled from.

Quote by NeoMvsEu
TL;DR/IOW 1: dominant function is the established strong way to return to tonic. The minor seventh further encourages this movement. The seventh's minor quality has nothing to do with the key of G major, but with the chord root note G.

On seventh nomenclature, minor and flat are both acceptable. The way I learned the dom7 name in school was actually major, minor 7th.
And if I'm talking about 1-b3-5-b7, I'll always call it the minor seventh chord. It's a minor chord with a minor seventh, and saying minor twice is a bit superfluous. Flat 7 sounds more ambiguous to my ears, but as long as you can communicate the same ideas to anyone you're working with you should be alright.

TL;DR 2: minor 7 and flat 7 mean the same thing relative to the chord root.

OP, btw: diatonic is another way to say "in the key". As in, B-flat is not diatonic to C major, but F is.
Yeah well, like the saying goes, "you say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe".
#11
Quote by neccesity
major 7th is in the major key so you add the actual 7th of that key, but dominant 7th is not in that key, and you add the 10th(chromatically).


Not quite. A dominant 7th is called such because in a major scale it appears on the chord with the root on the 5th degree (the dominant) and has a strong pull back to the tonic (the 1st degree).

A chord with the note relations R-3-5-b7 is regardless a dominant 7 chord. Sometimes they aren't functional (see: blues, with the IV7; jazz, with contiguous II-Vs), but are still named dominant 7th chords.

Quote by NeoMvsEu
Counterexample: in minor, say C minor, V is also sometimes used because the third of the dominant chord leads to tonic as the leading tone. A piece doesn't change to G major all of a sudden (except when it does, but that's beside the point); the major chord with root G in the context of C minor points strongly back to C minor with its notes. This (using B-natural vs. B-flat) is a common sort of harmonic alteration in tonal classical music for voice leading purposes, but is still used nowadays to some extent.

TL;DR/IOW 1: dominant function is the established strong way to return to tonic. The minor seventh further encourages this movement. The seventh's minor quality has nothing to do with the key of G major, but with the chord root note G.


Yep. This is why the harmonic minor scale exists as it turns out - it was a way to have the major 7th and the minor 3rd together. Further interesting, augmented 2nd jumps in minor (that is between a min6 and a maj7) are, well... strongly discouraged, shall we say.



TL;DR 2: minor 7 and flat 7 mean the same thing relative to the chord root.



Yep. Exactly. Though, I'd question the theory abilities of anyone who called a dominant 7th chord a "Major Flat 7".
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Last edited by oneblackened at Jul 8, 2016,
#12
@Captaincranky, I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from, and furthermore, you seem to be pulling things out of thin air for the sake of argument. :\

I was talking about the leading tone because it's not diatonic to minor. Say all you want about harmonic minor scales, but the alteration from b7 to leading tone is not in the key signature and serves as an alteration for the sake of harmonic purposes.
After a bit, I added that the minor seventh scale degree over the dominant further reinforces the drive to tonic. B-F to C-E stabilizes the tension created by said tritone. (Since I already addressed this point earlier in the thread, I thought that repeating myself would be superfluous. I guess that is not the case.)
V7-I is more common than V7-i, but both do happen, so I wanted to address the latter as well, especially since your strong wording suggested something different.
(@general: B-F to C-Eb is also stable voice leading. Thirds are relatively stable intervals, with the exception of dominant chords.)

I purposely limited my scope to classical music to explain the origin of the terminology "dominant 7th" and its original considerations and uses. 20th century genres and practices need not apply.

Also
Yeah well, like the saying goes, "you say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe".

This
I'm all for calling a 7th either "major" or "flat", but not "minor".

sounds like you are not agreeing to disagree, which is why I expanded on nomenclature to begin with.
----
On the topic of off-topic conversation, what do you mean by Gsus4 vs. F#° resolution? With relation to what, exactly?


Quote by oneblackened
Yep. This is why the harmonic minor scale exists as it turns out - it was a way to have the major 7th and the minor 3rd together. Further interesting, augmented 2nd jumps in minor (that is between a min6 and a maj7) are, well... strongly discouraged, shall we say.
True, but in minor melodic lines, particularly descending ones, the notes revert to natural minor form (ascending would have natural 6 and natural 7 too). Also, m6 would voice-lead MUCH more readily to 5. m6 to leading tone would be rather jarring, but I'm sure some people would like a riot*


* please don't, not on the site.

Quote by oneblackened
Yep. Exactly. Though, I'd question the theory abilities of anyone who called a dominant 7th chord a "Major Flat 7".
There are different ways to describe the same thing, though admittedly some of them are more mainstream than others.

But all of this is so complicated, why can't we just call these things the 7 chord?
#13
NeoMvsEu Well, the "default notation" for a 7th chord would be something like, "F7". Anytime you see the simplest notation possible, it's going to denote the most frequently occurring form of the 7th chord, which is a "flat 7th". A minor 7th chord has that very same flat 7th.

You, (or it would seem whomever), can complicate the concept as much as you like, but keep in mind, I'm not going to be grading anybody's finals in music school.

What I am here trying to do, is "simplicate" the concept of how a normal 7th chord is formed. Not generate some rigamarole about major minor positioning of that 7th in dispute.

OK, so somebody was making fun of the TS, because he couldn't even figure out how to correctly pose the question. That sort of cries out for a streamlined answer, if such a thing is possible.

Next, there is no exception of the position of the 7th, in either a major scale, a natural minor scale, or the harmonic minor scale, as long as we're talking.in terms of the "V" or "v" chord in all 3 scales. The 7th note of those chords is in the same position, the "flat 7th".

Now, it's nice that you're aware of how, "the leading tone is changed ion the harmonic minor scale". But it simply has nothing to do with the question.

In A natural minor, the "v" chord would be E minor. When we pull the 7th of Em from the Am scale, the note we come up with is "D", final answer. Which would make the, "v7" chord a flat 7th chord.

Now, we go to the A harmonic minor scale, which raises the G natural to G#, and changes the dominant chord to E major. (See, we now have our "leading tone", which BTW, is the 3rd of E major.

When we look to extend the E major chord to E7", we go looking for a usable note from the A harmonic minor, and there it is, "D natural", and it's a.......flat 7th of E major. So, no exceptions, the "leading tone" doesn't factor into anything. The dominant chord in all 3 scales, is a flat 7th.

Quote by NeoMvsEu
...[ ]....But all of this is so complicated, why can't we just call these things the 7 chord?
I couldn't agree more...
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#14
Quote by Captaincranky
Designating the 7th as "major or minor", sort of interferes with traditional notation where a "minor 7th chord", indicates the position of the 3rd. If the OP understands that, all is good, if not....?

I'm all for calling a 7th either "major" or "flat", but not "minor".

Incidentally, a standard "minor 7th chord", also contains the "flat 7th".


It's just a simple explanation that helps you understand how to build a maj7 and dom7 chords regardless of context I wouldn't say that you build a minor chord with a perfect fifth and a flat third either. If you're looking for the actual function of the dom7 and a more academic explanation it has already been given, at the time of my post I was unsure about what the TS was even asking.
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#15
Quote by Kevätuhri
...[ ]... at the time of my post I was unsure about what the TS was even asking.
When I'm confronted by an incompletely formed question like that, I assume the TS needs an answer which goes right to the core of the issue, and try to limit my response to the very basic. Should the TS complain, "I'm talking down to him", or "telling him things he already knows", I'll either step up my game, or hand the question off to you....

I really do think that participants in the particular forum trend toward flaunting the extent of their knowledge more than is necessary, But, something I'm rarely accused of is "being brief", so I likely don't have much room to talk.

Something I didn't address, was the purpose of the major 7th chord. If you want to whimper and whine like Neil Young, or you're caught in school when your period takes you by surprise, but you don't have a tampon with you, and you're forced to borrow one from the meanest girl in class, who you know will start talking behind you back the minute you walk out of the room, then you use the maj7 chord to replace the tonic..
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#16
IMO, the important thing here, if adding extra information, is to use correct terminology, rather than a shorthand which will only confuse further down the line.

I assume we all know the following - much of it has been outlined above - and the OP is welcome to take any info he needs from the following (not all of it may help or be pertinent, but some of it is).

This is my stab at what wiki would call "disambiguation"

1. "Dominant" = 5th (V) step of scale, and the chord built on that step. A major chord, in both the major and harmonic minor scales.

2. "Major" = "bigger", "minor" = "smaller" - describing intervals (pairs of notes) that come in two sizes (2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths). Scales and chords take their names from the most significant intervals they contain; but there is a shorthand for chord symbols that can be confusing if you don't know the jargon.

3. "major chord" = one that has a major 3rd (4 semitones up from the root). "minor chord" = one that has a minor 3rd (3 semitones up from the root). They both have a "perfect 5th" (7 semitones), so the 3rds are what distinguish them.

4. "major 7th" = an interval spanning 7 notes measuring 11 semitones from the root. Such as C-B, F-E, G-F#, etc

5. "minor 7th" = (i) an interval spanning 7 notes measuring 10 semitones from the root. Such as C-Bb, F-Eb, G-F, etc.
(ii) (chord shorthand) a minor triad with a minor 7th added.

6. "major 7th chord" = a major chord with a major 7th added. (The latter is what the "major" in the name refers to, not the former.)

7. "dominant 7th chord" = A dominant (V) chord with a minor 7th added. The 7th is minor because it's diatonic. In a "major scale" (one with a "major 3rd") The I and IV chords (tonic and subdominant) have major 7ths, and the V (dominant) has a minor 7th. Eg, in key of C major, C-E-G-B (I), F-A-C-E (IV), G-B-D-F (V).
The chord was once (sometimes still is) called a "major minor 7th" chord, but that's obviously confusing for anyone dealing in pop, rock or jazz chord terminology. "Dominant 7th" has become the common term for the combination of major 3rd and minor 7th, even when the chord does not have a dominant (V) function (as in blues, and in some jazz applications)

8. The minor 7th interval is more common than the major 7th, so chord symbol shorthand shows it as a plain "7". The larger (major) 7th is indicated by the word "maj" (or a triangle). Also, the major 3rd is considered the default, the smaller (minor) 3rd shown as "m" or "min". (In fact, minor 3rds are more common, but major is considered primary.)
There are four possible permutations of 3rd and 7th in a chord (major or minor in each case), and the shorthand means the most common combination gets the simplest symbol:

"G7" = G major triad (G-B-D), plus minor 7th (G-F). Standard 3rd and 7th.
"Gm7" = G minor triad (G-Bb-D), plus minor 7th. Lowered 3rd (m) with standard 7th
"Gmaj7" = G major triad, plus major 7th (G-F#). Standard 3rd with raised 7th (maj)
"Gm(maj7)" = G minor triad, plus major 7th. Lowered 3rd (m) and raised 7th (maj). Rarest combination.
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 9, 2016,
#17
jongtr Good stuff! Ask a simple question, and get the first 3 months of a music theory course free.

Sometimes it's as easy, or perhaps easier, to confuse someone with too much information, as with too little. Jus' sayin;'.

I'll be sure to do that though, next time I'm trying to figure out the 7th of an unfamiliar chord. I'll count up 11 steps from the 1st, instead of the more prone to error and harder to keep track of, one or two down from the root.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#18
Music goes like so: I7-II-7-bIII7-III7-IV7-V7-VI7-bIII7

Those are the proper chords to play in a given key.
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#19
Quote by Captaincranky
jongtr Good stuff! Ask a simple question, and get the first 3 months of a music theory course free.
Well, I already addressed the OP's question simply enough in my first post in the thread and wanted to clarify in case anyone wanted more information than originally asked.
Quote by Captaincranky
I'll be sure to do that though, next time I'm trying to figure out the 7th of an unfamiliar chord. I'll count up 11 steps from the 1st, instead of the more prone to error and harder to keep track of, one or two down from the root.
I know you're being facetious here, but 11 steps is a lot further than 11 half-steps, and there's an upward octave correction after counting downwards.
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Re: the earlier post - harmony does not take a scalar approach. Scales are a result of the harmony. I agree with Xiaoxi's (possibly former now) signature
#20
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Well, I already addressed the OP's question simply enough in my first post in the thread and wanted to clarify in case anyone wanted more information than originally asked.
I know you're being facetious here, but 11 steps is a lot further than 11 half-steps, and there's an upward octave correction after counting downwards.
You can accept one of two justifications for that. A: Lotsa times I just f*** up, write shit down, and don't proofread as well as I should.

Or the more poetic, "the hurrier I go, the behinder I get, in life and with music theory".

Where would one actually be after counting up 11 steps, a 15th, 17th, 19th, or 22nd chord?

Here, let the Desert Rose Band explain it
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Quote by NeoMvsEu
Re: the earlier post - harmony does not take a scalar approach. Scales are a result of the harmony. I agree with Xiaoxi's (possibly former now) signature
And the chicken absolutely came first.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#21
I'll let the Dutch QT do the talking:

11 (whole) steps would land you an octave and a minor seventh away.
And the chicken absolutely came first.
Actually, I do believe that, but that's beside the point.
#22
Quote by Kevätuhri
What is that supposed to even mean?

Major seventh is a major chord with an added major seventh. Dominant seventh is a major chord with an added minor seventh. In a major key, the diatonic maj7 chords are I and IV, and the diatonic dom7 chord is V.


Well he didn't say that, but technically, the minor seventh is the seventh in the minor key, and the major seventh is the seventh in the major key. I think that's why they are called that.
#23
Quote by oneblackened
Not quite. A dominant 7th is called such because in a major scale it appears on the chord with the root on the 5th degree (the dominant) and has a strong pull back to the tonic (the 1st degree).

A chord with the note relations R-3-5-b7 is regardless a dominant 7 chord. Sometimes they aren't functional (see: blues, with the IV7; jazz, with contiguous II-Vs), but are still named dominant 7th chords.




Dominants can be functioning or non functioning. A functioning dominant is on the V, pulling to the one. Any other major chord with a minor 7 rather than major 7 is still a dominant 7.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jul 9, 2016,
#24
Major seven and dom7 chords are very different. Almost as different as you can get. Dominants are more kind of like minor chords sort of. Not by how they are constructed, but sort of how they sound, and are used. For example, you could often replace a m7 chord with a dom7, and it will work. You can't replace a dom7 with a maj7 or maj9 or something like that. Usually you can't anyway, not without really changing what's happening a lot.

So all the maj7s are kind of like one family, and all the minors and doms and dims and stuff like that, are another sort of family. These don't mix well.

You need to learn these sorts of things from experience. learn what a dom7 sounds like a dom7b9 etc, dim chords, m7s, and then your maj7, and maj13s and all that. You'll see, they are in different sort of classes.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jul 9, 2016,
#25
Quote by fingrpikingood
Well he didn't say that, but technically, the minor seventh is the seventh in the minor key, and the major seventh is the seventh in the major key. I think that's why they are called that.
The minor second is a thing that does not exist in the minor scale starting from the tonic.

1, 4, and 5 were considered strongest consonances (the fourth, depending on time period, was debatable). The others were given a major (large) or minor (small) label accordingly.
Wiki actually gives an okay explanation here.
#26
Quote by fingrpikingood
Dominants can be functioning or non functioning. A functioning dominant is on the V, pulling to the one. Any other major chord with a minor 7 rather than major 7 is still a dominant 7.


That's what I said. Secondary dominants are still functional however since they do the same thing (just a V of a different scale degree). Tritone substitutions are fun too and kind of skirt the line between functional and not.
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#27
Quote by fingrpikingood
Well he didn't say that, but technically, the minor seventh is the seventh in the minor key, and the major seventh is the seventh in the major key. I think that's why they are called that.
Yeah, that's kind of the point I was trying to make when I entered this thread, saying a dominant 7th chord contains a "minor 7th" muddies up the issue.

However, calling the interval "flat 7th",is quite direct, functional and appropriate.

The only possible drawback I can envision, is first having to know a "major 7th", is a 1/2 tone drop from the root of a major diatonic scale. Is there a tab here for that?
#28
Quote by oneblackened
That's what I said. Secondary dominants are still functional however since they do the same thing (just a V of a different scale degree). Tritone substitutions are fun too and kind of skirt the line between functional and not.


Oh ya, lol. I should have kept reading. oops.
#29
Just think if we didn't have "dominant 7th chords" at I, IV, V we wouldn't be be able to have 12 bar blues. But to the upside, we wouldn't have would be lead players, expecting you to play 12 bar rhythms for an hour or so, while they wank away on the minor pentatonic scales associated with those chords.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#30
Quote by NeoMvsEu
The minor second is a thing that does not exist in the minor scale starting from the tonic.

1, 4, and 5 were considered strongest consonances (the fourth, depending on time period, was debatable). The others were given a major (large) or minor (small) label accordingly.
Wiki actually gives an okay explanation here.


In that case, they kind of messed up the nomenclature, imo. The 2 is kind of the odd one out, because it doesnt scale well, it should just be called a 9, always, or if you want to refer to it specifically a flat two. Using the word minor to mean flattened, is a mistake, imo. It's not, clean enough, for my liking.
#31
Quote by fingrpikingood
In that case, they kind of messed up the nomenclature, imo. The 2 is kind of the odd one out, because it doesnt scale well, it should just be called a 9, always, or if you want to refer to it specifically a flat two. Using the word minor to mean flattened, is a mistake, imo. It's not, clean enough, for my liking.
...Eh, chord extensions came WAY after simple interval relationships (unison to octave) were created. Looking at the last century to explain 2 millennia of theory might be the mistake here
#32
Captaincranky
Quote by Captaincranky

I'll be sure to do that though, next time I'm trying to figure out the 7th of an unfamiliar chord. I'll count up 11 steps from the 1st, instead of the more prone to error and harder to keep track of, one or two down from the root.
Yes, there is that.
I was just explaining why it's "major" - it's one semitone bigger, if you measure upwards. (Your sarcasm is appreciated however )
#33
Quote by fingrpikingood
In that case, they kind of messed up the nomenclature, imo. The 2 is kind of the odd one out, because it doesnt scale well, it should just be called a 9, always, or if you want to refer to it specifically a flat two. Using the word minor to mean flattened, is a mistake, imo. It's not, clean enough, for my liking.

The interval names have nothing to do with scales. When talking about interval qualities, minor means small, major means large.

In Finnish we have different words for interval qualities and keys so they don't cause any confusion.


Why I don't like "flat" and "sharp" is because if we are in a key that has flats in it, "sharp 4th" may actually mean "natural 4th". (For example in F major the diatonic 4th is Bb and the "sharp 4th" would be B natural, not B sharp. This is why I would prefer talking about an augmented 4th, not a sharp 4th.) When talking about intervals, major, minor, augmented, diminished and perfect are the correct terms.

Minor 2nd scale degree is not found in the minor scale but that doesn't matter. "Minor 2nd" just means that it's a "smaller" 2nd. Minor doesn't mean "flattened". Flattened in relation to what? The minor scale doesn't have a "flattened 3rd". It has a minor third. To me "flattened/sharpened X" refers to an accidental. So talking about a flattened 3rd in a minor key could refer to a diminished 3rd. This is why "flat" and "sharp" don't work that well when talking about interval qualities. They can cause confusion.

Also, you can find minor 2nds in minor and major scales. There is a minor 2nd between the leading tone and the tonic for example. Yes, there is no diatonic minor 2nd scale degree in either minor or major keys but that doesn't matter. Intervals are not always counted upwards from the tonic.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#34
Quote by MaggaraMarine
...[ ]...Why I don't like "flat" and "sharp" is because if we are in a key that has flats in it, "sharp 4th" may actually mean "natural 4th". (For example in F major the diatonic 4th is Bb and the "sharp 4th" would be B natural, not B sharp. This is why I would prefer talking about an augmented 4th, not a sharp 4th.) When talking about intervals, major, minor, augmented, diminished and perfect are the correct terms..
Yeah well, "sharp or flat" to me always infers moving away from where you are. The actual note value, "sharp, flat or natural", will be determined when you get there, in relation to the scale you're playing.

And it's the same issue with a natural "major 7th" you flat 1/2 step from there, and get a "flat 7th".

Of course in English, we could always attach the present participle as in, "I'm sharping this note". Or the alternative, "I'm going to flat this note". I suppose to maintain consistency of verb tense, that would have to be worded, "I'll be flatting this note". Which sadly changes the actual tense to the future subjunctive, but you get the idea.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#35
Quote by Captaincranky
Yeah well, "sharp or flat" to me always infers moving away from where you are.

And it's the same issue with a natural "major 7th" you flat from there, and get a "flat 7th".

But what if the diatonic 7th is a minor 7th? Then by that logic a flat 7th would refer to diminished 7th. And this is exactly why I prefer major, minor, perfect, augmented and diminished when talking about intervals (and those are the correct terms to use for interval qualities). They are not ambiguous.

As I said, a flat 3rd, depending on the context, could also refer to a diminished 3rd.


As I said, to me "flattened" or "sharpened" something refers to an accidental, not to diatonic notes. So a sharpened 7th in a minor key would be a major 7th and a flattened 7th would be a diminished 7th because the diatonic 7th is a minor 7th. But in a major key a sharpened 7th would be an augmented 7th (or octave) and a flat 7th would be a minor 7th.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 9, 2016,
#36
Quote by MaggaraMarine
But what if the diatonic 7th is a minor 7th? Then by that logic a flat 7th would refer to diminished 7th. And this is exactly why I prefer major, minor, perfect, augmented and diminished when talking about intervals (and those are the correct terms to use for interval qualities). They are not ambiguous.

As I said, a flat 3rd, depending on the context, could also refer to a diminished 3rd.


As I said, to me "flattened" or "sharpened" something refers to an accidental, not to diatonic notes. So a sharpened 7th in a minor key would be a major 7th and a flattened 7th would be a diminished 7th because the diatonic 7th is a minor 7th. But in a major key a sharpened 7th would be an augmented 7th (or octave) and a flat 7th would be a minor 7th.
Well, you've made me deeply regret my last post! How can I make it up to you?
#37
Got it...

Something to keep in mind:

flat/sharp usually refers to scale degrees. b7, b2, #6, etc.
-> The Neapolitan 6th chord is bII, first inversion (pronounced the flat two chord).
-> The augmented 6th chords (when functional) include b6, 1, and #4 (pronounced flat six, one, and sharp four), resolving to a dominant (5, 7/natural 7, 2 (, 4)).

major/minor refers to non-perfect intervals.
-> C to B-flat is a minor seventh.
-> D# to F## is a major third.

The usage of "flat" and "sharp" has colloquially crept into the lexicon to denote the same thing as major/minor/diminished/augmented.
-> m7b5 is "minor seven, flat five" instead of "minor seventh diminished fifth" (or ø7, half-diminished seventh). It refers to a chord with scale degrees 1-b3-b5-b7 (1, flat 3, flat 5, flat 7).
-> 7#9 is "seven sharp nine" instead of "seven augmented nine" (but in the eyes of classical music, SHE DOESN'T EVEN GO HERE!)

As you can see, these are written on altered chords or extended chords as a staple in jazz harmony.

However, there is a difference that both sides should respect and learn about. Ponder this before going at each other's throats.
#38
Quote by NeoMvsEu
...[ ]...However, there is a difference that both sides should respect and learn about. Ponder this before going at each other's throats.
Huh? The "Musician's Talk" sub-forum, is, was, and always will be a blood sport of thrusting and parrying, with alternate preferred personal terminology, methodology and so forth. Why would anyone ever want to change that?

In fact if you've lost the TS by the end of page 1, and you're already on page 4, I'd call that thread, " a massive undertaking, and a rousing success".

ADDENDUMB: And BTW, we still haven't addressed what we're going to be calling my "root plus 11 steps chord". Hm, I'm thinking " a major 21st". What say ye?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jul 9, 2016,
#39
Quote by Captaincranky
Huh? The "Musician's Talk" sub-forum, is, was, and always will be a blood sport of thrusting and parrying, with alternate preferred personal terminology, methodology and so forth. Why would anyone ever want to change that?

In fact if you've lost the TS by the end of page 1, and you're already on page 4, I'd call that thread, " a massive undertaking, and a rousing success".
this is why we can't have nice things. But this isn't losing TS more than expanding the topic for further discussion and then pretty much splitting hairs.
ADDENDUMB: And BTW, we still haven't addressed what we're going to be calling my "root plus 11 steps chord". Hm, I'm thinking " a major 21st". What say ye?
I did...
Quote by NeoMvsEu
11 (whole) steps would land you an octave and a minor seventh away.
In context, you weren't talking about a chord, you were talking about an interval. Plus, you haven't specified anything besides the one interval.
#40
Quote by NeoMvsEu
In context, you weren't talking about a chord, you were talking about an interval. Plus, you haven't specified anything besides the one interval.
So, if we gave it major 3rd and perfect 5th, it would be a "flat 15th"?
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