#1
Hi again guys,


After checking all the previous threads I've written about this topic I finally have to make a quick decision. I'll be playing with my band in our very first "decent" concert and I have no pedalboard. Since I'll be playing in venue amps in my gigs or directly trough PA sytems I already know that the way to go is getting a decent amp modeler due to its versatility. Now I want to make a good decision, is it worth to buy an AXE FX or any high end modeler if I just care about the (lead/rythm) tone?, still I want the best possible tone for the genres I play Metalcore/prog metal/djent/deathcore, I'll eventually explore effects and stuff and I know high end modelers are perfect for it. Or do you think something like a POD HD500X is enough? I just don't want to sacrifice the "tone" quality, if there is a huge difference between what you can reach with the high end modelers vs the POD i'm definitely spending more money on a high end one, but still even when the money is not a problem I don't want to throw it away. If a POD can do almost the same (in terms of tone quality) please let me know.


Thank in advance!
#2
I'm confused. Where are you going to be playing that they have "venue amps" for you to use? I was in a band for almost 10 years, we played all over the midwestern US and we NEVER played anyplace that had amps that we could use. We opened for professional acts, and played dedicated concert venues.
Also, what are you playing at band practice? Why do you need to buy something different?
Harmony: Stratocaster
Alvarez: F-200
Schecter: Omen 6
Fender: BXR-60
Dean: Metalman Z Bass (Betty)
Egnator: Tweaker 15
Pearl: Maximum
ESP/LTD: EXP-300
Custom: Harley Quinn Bass
Custom: TK-421 Explorer
A steadily growing supply of pedals
#3
You're probably fine with an HD500X, though a Helix or AX8 wouldn't hurt. With an AxeFX II, you'll also need a foot pedal of some kind, and that total bill will run you about what two Helixes would cost (around $3K). If you're playing professionally, you might also consider what a backup will cost you (I usually have an identical whatever-it-is ready to go). If you're recording or sniffing corks in your bedroom, you might want the AxeFX, a Kemper, etc., but things become a whole lot less critical when the drums kick in.

I've seen places that had amps available at the location. Mostly never used them. Plugged a few in out of curiosity, though.
#4
If the venues will have amps maybe sonthing like a Wampler Triple Wreck distortion pedal and maybe a speaker emulation box like HK Redbox if you think you might need one. If the places will provide backline, something like Mesa Mini or other lunchbox head, or the HK and Laney heads that have simulated iut.
I don't see a reason to go with mulrifx.
#5
ryanbwags at home I play with a HT - 5R combo 5W just for learning covers, writting our own songs or rehearsing in general. And I rehearse with my whole band in different rehearsal rooms in my city, some of them have awful amps. What I'm trying to say is that I don't have anything to build my tone and play properly wheter in a rehersal nor a concert venue amp. I just need a pre amp (modeler) to tweak my tones to preference and try to sound alike everywhere.

For now I'm just thinking about the rig I need for my upcoming concert, I just have a decent guitar but no pedals nor modeler and I can't trust the amps that are gonna be provided.
#6
Twelve Foot Ninja uses the HD500X with success. I'm not big on modeling amps, but they have really good tone. They also pair it with a Variax, so that also has to be considered, but I think you can hit all the tones you are looking for with the Line 6.

Gibson Les Paul 60s Tribute
Jackson King V
Peavey Valveking 100
Ampeg VH140C
Boss TU-3 Chromatic Tuner
MXR ZW-44 Overdrive
Dunlop ZW-45 Wah
Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor
Digitech JamMan Solo XT
Peavey Vypyr VIP 1
#7
This is the technical rider BTW:

Power Sound System PA:
2 Noise Control Audio ASYM 3D5 3-way bi-amp PA Cabinets
4 Noise Control Audio VSB 218 Subwoofers
1 Noise Control audio FF 10.0 Power Amp
1 Noise Control Audio FF 6.0 Power Amp
1 Noise Control Audio FF 4 x 1500 Power Amp
1 Noise Control Audio FF 206 D Audio Speaker Management Controller
Soundcraft Si Expression 3 P.A. and Monitor Console
Proel Snake: 24 Inputs, 8 Outputs
Monitors:
Front Fill, Drum Fill, Side Fill L y Side Fill R
3 Qsc K 12 Stage Monitor
2 JBL EON 305 Stage Monitor
Micrófonos:
Shure: 5 SM 57, 3 SM 58
Blue: 3 Encore 100, 3 Encore 100i
Rode: 2 M1
Sennheiser: 1 e 865
AKG: 4 AkG C518 M (Dumkit)
Beyerdynamic: 1 Opus 53 (condensador)
Audix: 1 micrófno D6 (kick)
4 DI Whirlwind
2 DI DBGL PRO
Backline
1 Marshal MB 150 bass guitar combo amp
1 Fender Frontman 112R guitar combo amp
1 Mapex M series drums
#8
That's pretty crappy Backline, so what about the gigs - sounds like some kind of small teenage club or similar? Usually on the more pro events I see different kind of Backline riders, JCM2000 half stacks as standard. I think just a pedal right now would do the trick for you...I honestly can't say I like what I hear from the modelers for high gain sounds but some forumers would beg to differ. I happen to like separate distortion pedals even paired with modelers for more realistic distortion sounds, especially on high gain. But with this stage setup, I doubt that anyone would do an Axe Fx rig justice, unless you bring your own soundman...so either way you look at this you're probably screwed. Been there...done that...concentrate on putting on a good show, that's what our audience remembered, as and as long as they heard the skunk beat it didn't matter much if the guitar sound was a buzz or a massive pound, they went nuts.

Maybe a small portable rig with a 2x12 speaker would do the trick in this event, or maybe a 6505 combo. I'd start looking into that if you can drive to the gig.
Last edited by diabolical at Jul 12, 2016,
#9
Quote by diabolical
That's pretty crappy Backline, so what about the gigs - sounds like some kind of small teenage club or similar? Usually on the more pro events I see different kind of Backline riders, JCM2000 half stacks as standard. I think just a pedal right now would do the trick for you...I honestly can't say I like what I hear from the modelers for high gain sounds but some forumers would beg to differ. I happen to like separate distortion pedals even paired with modelers for more realistic distortion sounds, especially on high gain. But with this stage setup, I doubt that anyone would do an Axe Fx rig justice, unless you bring your own soundman.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the purpose of using modelers... to take the power out of the soundman's hands.
Gibson Les Paul 60s Tribute
Jackson King V
Peavey Valveking 100
Ampeg VH140C
Boss TU-3 Chromatic Tuner
MXR ZW-44 Overdrive
Dunlop ZW-45 Wah
Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor
Digitech JamMan Solo XT
Peavey Vypyr VIP 1
#10
Quote by Nolasludge
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the purpose of using modelers... to take the power out of the soundman's hands.


I don't know what to tell you there. Most local musicians that go all in the box sound usually worse than if they had a miked amp in front of them as the amp has somewhat finite knobs for screwing up the sound

No matter what you do, you always give your DI out or mic out to a soundman and he has quite the arsenal of tools at his disposal to mess it up from then on. Also, don't get me started about multifx and monitor wedges, they tend to be so underpowered unless you're playing arena and above, that usually they can't really do anything justice. Most of the time you'd hear vocals through them and maybe an occasional kick/snare, but most soundmen are usually protecting their monitors from loud sources as well. That's what I've seen locally.

I've been to some small gigs in Europe where the soundguy worked with maybe a 1/8 of the gear that his American counterpart would've had but made it sound much better, so it is all subjective.

Most gigs I go to now I see these iPhone wielding hipsters walking around the room doing sound tweaks and for the most part haven't heard a good mix in a while. I think last good mix I heard was a country band at the rodeo.
Last edited by diabolical at Jul 12, 2016,
#12
Cathbard usually has great advice. If you're going to do this, skip the axeFX and just get a nice floorboard multi effects. 95% of people at the gig aren't going to care how great the tone is. They just want to hear songs that sound mostly like they are supposed to.
Harmony: Stratocaster
Alvarez: F-200
Schecter: Omen 6
Fender: BXR-60
Dean: Metalman Z Bass (Betty)
Egnator: Tweaker 15
Pearl: Maximum
ESP/LTD: EXP-300
Custom: Harley Quinn Bass
Custom: TK-421 Explorer
A steadily growing supply of pedals
#13

Cathbard


ryanbwags


That Amplifire pedal sounds awesome, I checked a couple high gain tones and sound so professional, also the price is fair (600 USD). the problem is that it's out of stock . I'm looking for something like this, if the POD delivers such quality for 500 USD I'm going for it, otherwise, do you have any othe recommendations guys?
Last edited by Revocation89 at Jul 13, 2016,
#14
Quote by Revocation89


Cathbard

ryanbwags


They come back in stock pretty regularly.

I'd wait and keep checking.

Not that there's anything wrong with the POD, just a slightly older iteration.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#15
Quote by Arby911



This is what I was going to say. if you can wait for one to pop up, do it. If not, the POD should do fine.
Harmony: Stratocaster
Alvarez: F-200
Schecter: Omen 6
Fender: BXR-60
Dean: Metalman Z Bass (Betty)
Egnator: Tweaker 15
Pearl: Maximum
ESP/LTD: EXP-300
Custom: Harley Quinn Bass
Custom: TK-421 Explorer
A steadily growing supply of pedals
Last edited by ryanbwags at Jul 13, 2016,
#16
Guys, If you were to decide between getting a Eleven Rack vs a HD500X, what would you go for? Which do you think has the best quality amp modeling sounds, I love how the amplifire sounds but I'm afraid there's not gonna be stock before the 30th and I need time to import it to my country as well, so I need about 12 to 14 days.

What would you do you? or should I go for a distortion pedal + cab simulator?
#17
Quote by Revocation89
Guys, If you were to decide between getting a Eleven Rack vs a HD500X, what would you go for? Which do you think has the best quality amp modeling sounds, I love how the amplifire sounds but I'm afraid there's not gonna be stock before the 30th and I need time to import it to my country as well, so I need about 12 to 14 days.

What would you do you? or should I go for a distortion pedal + cab simulator?


You'd be better off checking on some other forums with modelling sub-forums where people actually use modellers regularly.
Moving on.....
#18
KenG

My dude, there are lots of modeller users here, myself included (I've owned the Eleven Rack, the HD500X, and the Kemper). I know you think we are all evil tube elitists, but we aren't.

TS: I'd go with the HD500X, simply because there is going to be continued support for it. The Eleven Rack sounds pretty awesome, but you are a bit limited compared to the HD, and it is a dead product at this point. Maybe if you can find one for super cheap, but otherwise I'd go with the POD.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
Last edited by dementiacaptain at Jul 15, 2016,
#19
Quote by dementiacaptain
KenG

My dude, there are lots of modeller users here, myself included (I've owned the Eleven Rack, the HD500X, and the Kemper). I know you think we are all evil tube elitists, but we aren't.

TS: I'd go with the HD500X, simply because there is going to be continued support for it. The Eleven Rack sounds pretty awesome, but you are a bit limited compared to the HD, and it is a dead product at this point. Maybe if you can find one for super cheap, but otherwise I'd go with the POD.


Thanks for speaking up!
Moving on.....
#20
Quote by KenG
Thanks for speaking up!


Overall I would say there is a bias here towards tube, but there are still those among us who rock (or in my case, have rocked) the modellers. I mean, hell, Cathbard, our resident old grumpy bastard even recently bought an Amplifire. If I started gigging again I'd probably go back to modellers, too.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#21
I just started gigging a complicated tube/digital setup, with GT-10 in 4 cable setup controlling a Mesa Mini Rectifier. I definitely miss the live sound of tubes pumping through speakers, I know the GT-10 modeler is long in the tooth but for effects it is perfect and the Mesa Mini is a great sounding small version of the Recto with the same hearty roar. I have the GT-10 set up as a pedal board now, don't even bother with patches, I get Chorus, Flange, Verb, Tap delay, tunes, wah and volume and amp control all in one so it works great .
Last edited by diabolical at Jul 15, 2016,
#22
Quote by Cathbard
Using a modeller gives total control to the sound guy.

About the same price as a pod but much better:
http://atomicamps.com/amplifire-pedal/


I've been on this board for longer than most people here.
If cathbard gives advice, you would do well to heed it.
If 50 people told me to go with option A, and cathbard told me to go with B, I would go with B.
Especially when it comes to amps.

I would refer to cath as a tube snob (in an affectionate way), For him to buy a modeler and love it says a lot about the product.
Last edited by CodeMonk at Jul 16, 2016,
#23
The only way using a modeller gives 'control to the sound guy' is if you use the PA only! I know several folks who use their own FRFR powered speakers as their back line. These not only project better than guitar cabs but unless the sound guy is a total idiot your front of the house tone and stage tone should be very similar. Especially if you use the emulated outs on the modeller, which is a no-brainer, it removes the mic placement effects.
I've heard of instances where the guitar players liked how his traditional guitar amp sounded fine but shitty mic'ing and some bad sound work ruined their front of house sound as well.
Moving on.....
#24
Any decent modern DMFX pedal will do Metal great if you take the time to really dial in the patches, tone, and effects you want. It's about 90% all in the tweaking and very little about the $$$ at this point.

FWIW I saw OZ Fox in Las Vegas covering "Crazy Train" with just a POD HD through the house system and he never sounded better. I saw Neal Shon with AXE FX at Hollywood Bowl last year and he never sounded worse. It's WAY less about the $$$ of the gear and more about choosing one with your tone in there and then carefully tweaking to get your tone out of it.

If this was my gig I would probably choose a Pod HD, run it through one of those QSC K12s and send a feed from the K12 to the house system for an awesome result. The Fender Frontman is a doorstop unsuited for quality guitar modelers.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Jul 17, 2016,
#25
KenG, totally with you on that. Line out to the FOH and the entire mic placement thing is off the table. I've done enough gigs with bad micing from the start or where someone bumped into the mic stand and screwed the sound. With a modeller, it's always the same and the tone is as good as you make it.
#26
Quote by CodeMonk
I've been on this board for longer than most people here.
If cathbard gives advice, you would do well to heed it.
If 50 people told me to go with option A, and cathbard told me to go with B, I would go with B.
Especially when it comes to amps.

I would refer to cath as a tube snob (in an affectionate way), For him to buy a modeler and love it says a lot about the product.


I dunno. For him to buy a modeler and love it is probably a bit more like the first time moving from masturbation to intercourse.

Wait until the second or third one before you take his advice. In an affectionate way.
#27
Quote by dspellman
I dunno. For him to buy a modeler and love it is probably a bit more like the first time moving from masturbation to intercourse.

Wait until the second or third one before you take his advice. In an affectionate way.

I was just saying that I respect his opinion.
#28
Well, if you count my GT-100 its actually my second one. It's not the second one I've tried though.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#29
Quote by dspellman
I dunno. For him to buy a modeler and love it is probably a bit more like the first time moving from masturbation to intercourse.

Wait until the second or third one before you take his advice. In an affectionate way.


You gotta understand, Cath grinds up vacuum tubes and sprinkles them over his food and into his shampoo so as to absorb their powers.

Him buying a modeller is unprecedented. I'd say it's like a hardcore Harley guy coming out and recommending a Busa or something.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
Last edited by dementiacaptain at Jul 17, 2016,
#30
Quote by CodeMonk
I was just saying that I respect his opinion.


I'm poking fun.
We felt it here in LA (I think it was about a 4.3 Richter) when he bought that Amplifloozy.
#31
Just so that you have it, here's a demo of the Helix by Pete Thorn (note this doesn't demo deathcore, etc., so you'll have to trust that it's all there):



What's interesting about this is that he's not ONLY using it as a modeler, but also using an amp running into a load box and then into the Helix for a track, using an amp miked, etc., and using the four-cable method *and* using pedals into one of the four (!) FX loops on the thing. He's also made liberal use of aftermarket IRs (mostly Ownhammer).
#32
Quote by dspellman
...here's a demo of the Helix by Pete Thorn .


I've seen a fair number his vids. I think that opening tone was the worst of any of his I've heard. It wasn't bad. It was good. It wasn't great. Didn't have the give I've heard in others, as well.