#1
Hi guys,

First post, go easy on me. I currently have a Bugera 333XL head running into a really nice Traynor slant cab with a Line 6 POD HD500. I like the tones I get from the combo, but I bought prematurely as I didn't really realize that I liked the old me better; which is the effects guy that likes the amp modelling - Not the purist. So the head doesn't push enough gain for my style without having the POD act as a distortion pedal already, and I like variation at my finger (or toe) tips. I want to just push a button to my next patch with whatever sound I want. Makes the head kinda useless except that it's got a nice 'tube' sound I won't find in solid state. So the dilemma;

I can't recoup my losses. I'm thinking of selling the Bugera head along with the POD. Replace that with a Fractal Audio product or even the new Line 6 Helix after some time for reviews and wear and tear can be seen. Here's what I don't know; should I replace the head with a power amp and run the new pedal unit into that and that into the cab? Or should I keep the Bugera with it's tube feel and just run it on the 'clean' channel while pushing the new tones in from the pedal?

Or, do I drop everything I have, buy the expensive unit and run that DI whenever needed (I don't gig yet and practice with my hobby band every 4 weeks) and then I can just keep my home recording system as is and plug the new pedal into my computer and away I go. That's 90% of what I do anyways.

Any productive thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks.
#2
i Run a GT-10 through a marshall lead 100 mosfet head. I personally like the setup for the same reasons your thinking. At the push of a button I can change any and all parameters and effects instantly. I use the four cable method. you can check that online. it involves using the effects loop. My GT-10 has an amp control option that allows me to control the channel on my head if I choose to go with the head "sound". I do that actually for a couple patches for a low gain sound. If you use the 4 cable method you will be , depending on your patch settings, basically be using just the power section of the amp and not the head sound. So if you want the multi effects amp that will be controlled by the pedal. Even the volume. The important thing with multi effects is .

1 - output level - my gt-10 has an adjustable output that I set at +4 for recording direct to PC and I can set it at -10 thru my head and cabinet.

2 - Cabinet modelers- Im sure you have those, if your playing thru your cabinet make sure the speaker emulators are off on whatever patch youre using theyre for direct recording. They will mess with your sound.

3. - have amp modelers off and make appropriate settings on patch if you choose to go with the head "tone".

I personally like the setup. I can have the best of both worlds. you can have a patch to bypass the amp modelers and use the organic head with "pedals" added to it. or go with all modeling when you feel that tone is better in the context of what your playing.
#3
Most presets on multi effects involve DI recording and have cabinet and microphone emulators running. If you want to mess with a preset thru your rig, go into system, if its possible, make sure the output is appropriate. Also make sure speaker and mike emulators are off, and you will hear that preset much better thru your rig. I had a couple multi effects and always wondered why they sounded for shit on the presets. levels were weird and stuff. That is why. I personally like the setup you have going. Most times people dont understand what theyre doing with the multi effects and how they work. There can be a pretty good learning curve to them that most people cant get over, or dont want to spend the time figuring out.
#4
I have patches set for recording and patches for my Rig. people will tell you its ridiculous, or youre stupid, but with a good multi effects you can do a lot if you learn how to use it. Like I said dont replace the head with a power amp, with the four cable method you will basically turn your head into a pure power amp.
#5
Quote by pushingthrough
I have patches set for recording and patches for my Rig. people will tell you its ridiculous, or youre stupid, but with a good multi effects you can do a lot if you learn how to use it. Like I said dont replace the head with a power amp, with the four cable method you will basically turn your head into a pure power amp.


There are a couple of "buts" here. If you're going to turn your head in to a power amp, you may as well have a power amp. As Klepto2869 notes, it makes your head kinda useless. And if you want the most out of your modeler setup, you may as well swap the cabinet for a full range cabinet; you're going to fight the "personality" of your current cabinet (and the fact that it has a limited range) if you try to use the "cabinet" section of your modeler.

pushingthrough has patches set for recording and patches for his rig, but you should be able to use one set of patches (or close to) for both.

I actually lightened my load considerably when I moved from a tube-based system with a pair of 2x12s (with tweeters) and a 100W stereo tube power amp to a pair of three-way cabinets and a 1500W solid state power amp. The tube power amp was 25 lbs (both are rackmounts), the solid state 9 lbs. The 2x12s, which were custom-built with Eminence Delta ProA speakers, were easily 80 lbs each (but could handle up to 800W each). The new cabinets, with neo-based Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 15" woofers, a 6.5" mids driver and a tweeter actually handle 900W each, go lower and higher, and weigh a bit more than half what the 2x12s did.

Better yet, I don't have to have a different output running to the PA or to a recording device from what goes to the power amp and out to my local speakers.
Last edited by dspellman at Jul 15, 2016,
#6
thats why i said if your using it thru your rig turn off cab and mic sims. And no there are different outputs agin read posts, that you use for different applications. just like i said my patches for direct recording have cab and mic sims on output is louder and also I prefer a different eq when going from one to the other. operation of board is completely different too. When thru rig using amp models volume ids dependent on board not head. Trust me the two do are not interchangable. I play thru celestions in my rig and the EQ and preamp is entirely different when direct, let alone the digital ouput volume since I record thru SPIDF connection. Digital stereo out. Believe me I know a little bit about what I'm talking about.
#7
Sometimes I bypass my board and run straight from the head. No amp modelers, and have that bank so my pedals are set to individual stompboxes. Thats why I said my GT-10 amp switch is awesome. I can contol my amp head from my board.
#8
All Im saying is he can have a good time with what hes got more than he knows. You tell him to go buy a stereophonic sound system. Hes got good gear and the boards are more versatile than most people know. He doesnt need to spend a dime. just understand what he has and learn how to use them.
#9
Do you run the POD through the front input of the Bugera? If so, you might want to try running it through just the effects loop. That way you will bypass the preamp of the Bugera so the POD gets a proper signal from your guitar, also making the Bugera act only as a power amp.

I hear about a lot of reliability issues with Bugera equipment so you may want to invest in a standalone power amp so you can use the POD direct, without worrying about the Bugera dying. I would say get a SS power amp so the POD does all the work. You can also get a powered wedge monitor and bypass the Traynor cabinet as well if you want. From there, you could replace the POD with one of the more expensive modeling units.

The question is should you replace the POD with an Axe FX, Helix, Kemper, etc.? Maybe try what I listed above and see if the POD will get you where you want to go now. And maybe try using the Bugera traditionally, maybe with an overdrive to boost the lead channels and use the channel switching for cleans and such. Run the POD through the effects loop then for delays, reverbs, etc. If that floats your boat, then invest in a more ~proper amp head.
Last edited by Will Lane at Jul 15, 2016,
#10
Quote by pushingthrough
All Im saying is he can have a good time with what hes got more than he knows. You tell him to go buy a stereophonic sound system. Hes got good gear and the boards are more versatile than most people know. He doesnt need to spend a dime. just understand what he has and learn how to use them.


I told him that I have power amps that are stereo capable. I didn't tell him to "go buy a stereophonic sound system." I normally run my power amps in "bridged, mono" mode. The 1500W power amp that I have runs about 900W to a single 8 ohm cabinet in that mode, about 1500W bridged, mono to a 4 ohm load (if I use a pair of cabs).

Spending money doesn't seem to be an issue; he's talking about a Fractal product or a Line 6 Helix (both AX8 and Helix are around $1500 and, in the case of the Fractal Axe-FX, noticeably more). The UG forum doesn't have many people using modeling gear (most are running 6505 combos in their bedrooms if you count posts). Other forums like TGP are running 1500 pages of Helix information (for example) in a single thread and, since they're older, tons more pages of Axe and Kemper material. At this point, all of those modelers are more than thoroughly vetted and, apparently, approved for both sound quality and usability.
#11
Thanks guys, lots of great stuff here. I'll try to reply to the thoughts here (in no specific order!)
Money is definitely an issue; my wife ain't letting me spend much more! My thought was dump EVERYTHING I have and get a Fractal/Helix, which would probably still cost me a bit more than all of that stuff selling combined. Then I'd have a nicer piece of gear to play with at home and I could potentially DI it if I ever actually play a show, and the place where I rehearse has amps. So if I could get a GREAT tone with a Fractal for instance, would it be enough with what I have at my disposal?

Pushingthrough - Liking the idea of trying the 4 cable method again; I had issues the first time with odd hissing sounds etc. However, with everything you wrote, I'm wondering if I forgot to disable an amp, cab or didn't go into system and set it appropriately. It also seems like input/output levels are pretty clutch here. I like the idea that I may just have all the equipment I need, but I don't think I have the 'quality' pedal for all of the home recording I do. I plug my POD to computer and use headphones because I have kids, so all of my sound is digital from the POD. I like what I hear on the computer though, for the most part, so for now if I can get those patches to sound the same through my rig; I'm happy for now.

dspellman - I was on that train of thought initially when I wrote the post, but now I'm thinking; If I sell the Bugera for a few hundred, how much does a power amp cost? I don't want to lose money to end up with 'essentially' the same idea of just a piece of equipment that powers the POD (or whatever I end up with).

Will Lane - Yeah I run it through the front. Can I run it through the effects loop without the 4 cable method, or is that the same thing that pushingthrough was talking about? That might be my next play.

Thanks guys!
#12
See if you can do the POD as a 4 cable setup:


http://www.dawsons.co.uk/blog/4-cable-method-guide-benefits

and if you can make it switch your amp, my GT-10 switches A/B the amp via the amp control switch. I am using it as a pedalboard but I can also manage patches and program anything. Currently running it through a Mesa Mini Triple Rectifier, works great. I don't use any of the amp modeling but I could add an extra boost in front or something like that.
#13
Quote by Klepto2869
Will Lane - Yeah I run it through the front. Can I run it through the effects loop without the 4 cable method, or is that the same thing that pushingthrough was talking about? That might be my next play.
Yes. Guitar > POD Input. POD Output > Effects Return.
#14
Diabolical thats what I've been saying. Thats how I run my rig. sometimes (a lot of the time) my board carries the sound. Sometimes I have patches where the head runs the sound, and i use the GT-10 to switch amp channels at the head. You can do so much. Whatever, hope you find your sound, good luck brother!