#1
Yo!

This is my first post so il try to explain myself a little bit. I currently play in a hardcore punk band, think Trash Talk/Ceremony/Extortion with healthy references to Minor Threat/Black Flag.

I'am a big advocate of letting guitar and amp do the talking and not over saturating things sound/tone wise with numerous pedals. One thing to mention is the band has no bass player. Drums/Vocals/Guitar. So the guitar tone really has to stand up on its own with no punch from a bass.

I use a 6505+ head and custom Zilla 2x12 cab. The head is EQ-ed just how I like and I make a noise that fills the band well (the Resonance/Presence controls come in to their own playing in a band with no bottom end instrument)

Im constantly nudged and harassed by other guitarists in the scene to put a Tubescreamer and noise suppressor in front of it all. Granted they sound good but other than that whats the logic? Other than replicating an overused sound in this scene. I have no intention of building a guitar tone that mimics numerous heavy guitar players. I'm also a big fan of feedback and general noise that adds texture, something I'm worried the suppressor may handicap.

I appreciate its all subjective & people could answer 'its punk just plug in and play' but I was hoping for a more formal answer. I guess I'm looking for a guitar tone that has an edge to it but doesn't fall into a modern 'tight' metal leaning tone, which many other modern punk/hardcore bands turn to.

Going line into the Peavey is great but are there other options to sculpt my sound with out following the general trends?
#2

Im constantly nudged and harassed by other guitarists in the scene to put a Tubescreamer and noise suppressor in front of it all. Granted they sound good but other than that whats the logic? Other than replicating an overused sound in this scene. I have no intention of building a guitar tone that mimics numerous heavy guitar players. I'm also a big fan of feedback and general noise that adds texture, something I'm worried the suppressor may handicap.


If you and your fans are happy with the way you sound, stick to your guns.

If not, what do YOU feel is lacking?
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#3
dannyalcatraz I guess i'm just worried that I'm missing out on a trick. Though all of the 'tricks' have probably been done. I'am trying to walk a line
of originality in a scene thats pretty stuck in its ways.
#4
No, all the tricks haven't been done, but also, not all possible tricks will sound good or work for a given genre. That's why formulas get created...and the cliches that inevitably follow.

Maybe get yourself a cheap portable digital modeler (Pod, Korg, Boss, etc.) or MFX unit and experiment with your sound in your private practice time.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#5
dannyalcatraz True true. I'am trying to keep things as natural as possible with this project. Line in is great. I guess I'm just not convinced that using the TS will give me anything extra, but there are many options... The 6505+ definitely has all the drive and distortion i'd ever need.

I occasionally play more post-rock leaning stuff and thats where I get involved with effects and digital aspects.
#6
If you want to set up a faux-bass player, get a signal splitter and run the second signal to an EQ, Octaver and a Bass (or bass-heavy) second amp. Use the EQ to kill the guitar treble and upper-mids and pass lower-mids and bass. It won't make anyone think you've magically acquired a bass player but it will fatten up your bottom end significantly without changing the tone that you already like.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#7
Quote by Arby911
If you want to set up a faux-bass player, get a signal splitter and run the second signal to an EQ, Octaver and a Bass (or bass-heavy) second amp. Use the EQ to kill the guitar treble and upper-mids and pass lower-mids and bass. It won't make anyone think you've magically acquired a bass player but it will fatten up your bottom end significantly without changing the tone that you already like.


I like this idea.

In regards to the Tubescreamer, meh. It's cool for when you need tight percussive chugga chugga licks, it definitely sounds cool, but for what you're doing I think the raw tone of the amp is more appropriate.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#8
Well, if you're trying to walk a line of originality, you're pretty much locked with a very unoriginal scenster amp...not that there is anything wrong with the amp, but that's like the "go to" amp for most in this genre or the extreme metal genre.

I have some local buddies that play hardcore/punk/etc. and one of their guitarists plays a 6505 head similar to yours that handles the rhythm, and yes - no overdrive in front. The other guitarist has a 3x15 watt amps, and that is where things get original and interesting, he alternates between Blues Jrs or AC15s in a kind of like a Brian May setup, one amp is straigh up clean, one with some kind of effect, chorus or phase or flange and the other one always runs a lightly delayed signal:


He also has two overdrives that he runs in series, one set for crunch, the second one bring it to saturation, with a noise box (some messy fuzz or distortion) in there too when he wants to get nuts.

I think if you want to be original, you need to start with an amp that is not really for this genre and build upon that, like say the guys from Tool.
Last edited by diabolical at Jul 19, 2016,
#9
diabolical That is interesting! Tools tones are definitely something to aspire to. I like the tone of those power violence / grind bands where it hasn't slipped fully into metal yet... Extortion, Infest, Iron lung etc

I 'inherited' this amp & it is a great bit of gear but I'm not cranking the gain or dial-ing in 'metal/core' tones. The diversity is there if you're not cranking and chugging it. But perhaps that is my issue, maybe I need something that has a little more vintage grit and character.
Last edited by CharlieJ_W at Jul 19, 2016,
#10
dementiacaptain Yeah definitely agree with the TS comments, Im not looking for that tight chugging clarity I want the tone to be a bit more erratic if that makes sense. Grit / character etc etc
#11
One thing I've seen over DECADES of guitarists looking for something new is using an oddball effect (or two or three) in their signal chain, but not using it on its most full bore, in-your-face settings. Something like a ring modulator that is just barely on- just enough to be noticeable- will sound different without people being able to go, "Oh, now he's using a ring modulator *yawn*."

Instead, they'll be wondering how you get that delightful "squiggle" out of your guitar.

Besides ring mods, good candidates for this include rotary effects, arpeggiators, phausers, flangers, random tone generators, octavers, bit crushers, theremins, momentary loopers, and so forth.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Jul 19, 2016,
#12
dannyalcatraz I have already started experimenting with this. Was thinking along the lines of a hand made fuzz pedal thats a little glitchy and temperamental and instead of just cranking it having it fairly subtle to add something that isn't too obvious.

I'm enjoying all the advice so far, gives me a lot to think about and plot.
#13
A fuzz boost, or blending gain with a fuzz is nice.


You could try a delay, just a bit like a slapback delay, into the front end. It would make it sound kind of like double tracking. Thicken it up a bit.
Depending on what delay and settings used the echo created can be of the same intensity or less which would give the echo slightly less gain than the initial note played.

That's something I have always wanted to try, but I just never got a delay pedal.
Last edited by Liaztraht at Jul 19, 2016,
#14
Quote by CharlieJ_W
dannyalcatraz I have already started experimenting with this. Was thinking along the lines of a hand made fuzz pedal thats a little glitchy and temperamental and instead of just cranking it having it fairly subtle to add something that isn't too obvious.

I'm enjoying all the advice so far, gives me a lot to think about and plot.


There might be a fuzz on the market that will do that. Let me think a bit.

In the meantime, I thought I'd share a bit of Tom Scholz's (Boston) tonal wisdom. It might not apply to what your needs are, but it may inspire you:

I grew up listening to classical music, so on a song like “More Than a Feeling,” when it breaks into that chorus part, that’s what I wanted to hear—that symphonic power, that impact. I discovered that what I needed to do was have stereo guitars for rhythm parts, split up on the sides. I’d usually track two separate guitars on each side, purposely detuning each pair at least ten cents apart in pitch, sometimes including a center track. It would have been easier if I had had vari-speed on my tape machine, but, instead, I had to detune the guitar each time I re-tracked, which was no small job. Also, while you want the parts to be tight, you don’t want the takes exactly on top of each other, rhythmically—you might want one slightly ahead, the next slightly behind.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#15
I don't like my 5150 at all without a TS type of thing. you aren't really adding much gain, just a little push and eq change. I also wouldn't consider the TS making you're tone. ore processed or less natural.

I like using lofi analog delays to add some nastiness. you don't have to go over the top with it either, a little goes a long way.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#16
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Jul 20, 2016,
#17
Try paralel processing, that's when things start to get interesting. It is more of a studio trick but layering your tone with an overcompressed and overdistorted second signal that barely peeks in the mix could be one of the things to do. Or layer a cleaner crunchier sound at say 30% over a full blast gain monster guitar tone, the cleaner tone withh enhance your definition and add an extra dimension without you loosing on the original aggression. Lots of other tricks.
Some of the pros did this, like the already mentioned Brian May, I think Tom Scholz did this with a full mixer, splitting his signal and running different effects, John Petrucci I think is also another one that uses 2 rigs, one clean and one effected in parallel, etc.
Cheap way to get into it would be to get the Boss signal splitter LS-2 (Line selector) pedal and experiment with that for starters. Off the top of my head one thing that it does really cool is that you can blend in an amount of overdrive into your preamp stage by selecting the clean and overdrive level so you're sending both to the input, lots of other cool routing options are available with it as well, it is one of my hidden weapons.
#18
diabolical I do actually have studio time booked for mid august to record our newest EP, I'm definitely looking to experiment guitar-wise.
I do like the idea of a separate guitar track to add definition and character. Im talking super over the top playing and tones but mixed subtly.

dannyalcatraz Nice! Il start checking out this list.

http://www.thefuzzshack.com/#/nine-of-swords/4585116866 these guys make some interesting fuzz based effects if you're into that sort of thing,
UK based. All hand made to order.
Last edited by CharlieJ_W at Jul 20, 2016,
#19
I think a TS or any other OD pedal wouldn't necessarily be what you want for your main tone, but it wouldn't hurt to add one either to use for some variation. When used as a "clean" boost, they don't really change your base tone that much; what they do is tighten up the low-end and add a bit of upper-mid grind. They also help solos and pinch harmonics to poke through the mix much easier (again, I'm not sure how often you'd need that with your music -- but having it available wouldn't hurt.)

The main thing I came in here to say is to maybe try modding your lead channel to original 5150 specs. It's not that hard of a mod -- just two capacitors and a resistor -- but it alters your tone in a pretty big way. When I did it to mine I couldn't believe the staggering amount of low-end it added. It also loosened the response on palm mutes but sounds bigger; more Recto-ish. The midrange is also more "untamed" sounding and a little more aggressive and ragged. Without a bass player it will definitely fill in your low-end better. For my music I typically need a boost to tighten up some of that low-end, but honestly if I crank the thing to gig levels and back-off the bass and resonance knobs I could get by without an OD pedal. For punk/hardcore styles of playing it would be fine, and would sound beastly and obnoxious.

The other thing you could try is an EQ pedal in the effects loop. You can really change the character of your amp with those -- and you might find a tone that you can't get with the amp alone.
#20
Quote by CharlieJ_W
diabolical I do actually have studio time booked for mid august to record our newest EP, I'm definitely looking to experiment guitar-wise.
I do like the idea of a separate guitar track to add definition and character. Im talking super over the top playing and tones but mixed subtly.



I meant same signal - just different paralel processing, you'd do it in the studio with a guitar box splitter, say a Boss LS-2 which can feed two outputs, or DI dry and then reamped through another amp with a DI box. It is interesting what you can achieve pairing say two disparate amps together and tracking one guitar part through both. Read up on SRV and you can find out a lot about those tricks.
#21
Quote by diabolical
I meant same signal - just different paralel processing, you'd do it in the studio with a guitar box splitter, say a Boss LS-2 which can feed two outputs, or DI dry and then reamped through another amp with a DI box. It is interesting what you can achieve pairing say two disparate amps together and tracking one guitar part through both. Read up on SRV and you can find out a lot about those tricks.


IOW, like the diagram you posted.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#22
diabolical Yeah, the place I'm recording has quite a nice desk, so I want to use it. Il be splitting my signal into my current set up as well as a DI to the desk.
Then maybe re-amping? (unsure on the terminology) back through my rig. Even thought about running it back through a tiny practice amp/ whatever I can get my hands on, (basically something that isn't meant to handle the signal) to get some really horrible noises.
#23
You can get horrible noises via pedals.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#25
Definitely pedals:






Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at Jul 20, 2016,