#1
hey guys, i just had a quick question that I ran into, if I use a iv chord in a maj key ex: C maj- F min which scale choice would go over the F minor since it's a non diatonic chord?
would I just play C min over the F minor?
also I read some where there's a relation between using a iv chord in a maj key and using the Lydian Dom scale? (not sure how that is)
thanks
#2
Lydian dominant shapes over a minor chord make no sense.

Lydian has a major 3rd. A minor chord by definition has a minor 3rd.

iv borrows from the parallel minor. C minor contains C D Eb F G Ab Bb.

I'd personally avoid Eb (as a guideline, not a rule) because of the dueling 3rds.

Basically, it's diatonic to the parallel minor, but best to avoid b3 unless you know how to use it.
#3
In this type of situation I find it preferable not to think in terms of set scales, but instead to be aware of the musical context and go from there. The pool of notes I would readily select from is:

C D Eb E F G Ab Bb B

In keeping the notes from C major, I've made some additions given that the context is Fm, a non-diatonic chord. The A has been changed for an Ab, since an A will clash with the Fm chord. Eb has been added in, as it is the minor seventh of an Fm chord. The Fm chord does not specify a seventh, so it could either be major (E) or minor (Eb). Finally, Bb has been added in, because it is the 11th of Fm. If you don't know much about chord extensions, I would take a little time to work with that. B is also usable, largely more so than the A would be, but it connotes a diminished chord and has a very unstable sound, especially considering that Fm contains the note C, which is only a semitone away from B natural.

If I had to think in a set scale, I would probably use F dorian, but I feel very strongly that thinking this way and being aware of the context gives you a greater palette of possibilities. It takes a lot of time and practice to know how to use them effectively but the end result is well worth it. Remember to let your ears be your guide, and to be as objective as possible when trying new techniques.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#4
Thank you guys, I was actually thinking the exact same thing you guys both wrote.
I jsut wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything
again, thanks for the reassurance
#5
If you're in C but you use an Fm without any other outside chords, the A harmonic minor works well. From Fm to CM you'd have G# to G and F to E. This chord scale combo also invites the use of the Purple Haze chord, as there is an A as well as a G#. Fm technically isn't in A harmonic minor but the notes are there and to me it sounds better than jumping to the parallel minor
#6
Quote by eddievanzant
If you're in C but you use an Fm without any other outside chords, the A harmonic minor works well. From Fm to CM you'd have G# to G and F to E. This chord scale combo also invites the use of the Purple Haze chord, as there is an A as well as a G#. Fm technically isn't in A harmonic minor but the notes are there and to me it sounds better than jumping to the parallel minor
No.

Fm and F-G#-C are two different things.

G# resolves up to A. F-A-C is a stable chord, but he wants F minor, by definition 1-b3-5, F-Ab-C, not F major.
Ab resolves down to G, which is what OP wants.

Borrowing from the parallel minor is what it's been historically and it's for color purposes.
#7
You only have to accommodate the tones in the chord. Against the key of C, Fm only has one note different, the Ab.

But if you're doing something where you're using a major IV and then a minor iv, you should probably not take a scalar approach to soloing. I'd probably take an arpeggio approach. Using passing tones in arpeggio-based line is where you'd draw from scales, but there's no need for total consistency in that regard.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 26, 2016,
#9
If I encountered an iv chord in a major key, I'd first assume that my key is incorrect, and that I - iv would actually be a V - i.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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Last edited by AlanHB at Jul 27, 2016,
#10
^ Well, that depends on the context. Minor iv chords in a major key are very common.

Of course if the progression is just C-Fm-C-Fm, then V-i in F minor sounds more likely. But it all comes down to sound. If C sounds like the tonic, then it is the tonic, even if the progression was a C-Fm vamp.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#12
Quote by MaggaraMarine
^ Well, that depends on the context. Minor iv chords in a major key are very common.

Of course if the progression is just C-Fm-C-Fm, then V-i in F minor sounds more likely. But it all comes down to sound. If C sounds like the tonic, then it is the tonic, even if the progression was a C-Fm vamp.


I can't recall actually playing a major song with a minor iv - could you provide an example?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#13
AlanHB

Radiohead - Creep is the first to come to my mind. Green Day - Stray Heart uses exactly the same progression in the chorus. Sleepwalk. Can't Take My Eyes off You. Björk - Overture (actually, that piece starts with I-iv). Cee Lo Green - Forget You (in the end of the chorus).

Those are what come to my mind right now. But there are countless others. Minor iv chord is one of the most common borrowed chords. Most commonly it is used in progressions like C7-F-Fm-C (you get a nice chromatic line Bb-A-Ab-G).












Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 27, 2016,
#16
Cool thanks guys

I'm not convinced it is one of the "most common" borrowed chords, but those are some good examples.

If I were to encounter an iv chord in a major key I'd play the major scale with a b3 accidental over that chord.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
Quote by AlanHB
I can't recall actually playing a major song with a minor iv - could you provide an example?

More:

Elvis Presley: It's Now or Never
Beatles: She Loves You, What Goes On, Nowhere Man, All I've Got to Do, Bungalow Bill
Radiohead: My Iron Lung, No Surprises (intro)
Bob Dylan: Simple Twist of Fate, Make You Feel My Love
Bread: If

You're right it's not the "most common" borrowed chord. That would be the bVII. And the other borrowed majors (bIII, bVI) are more common in rock music in general. But the minor iv comes in close behind, and would be more common in some less heavy genres. Where the borrowed majors are "tough" sounding, adding darkness and heaviness to the major key, the minor iv adds a more mysterious, quizzical, even spooky quality.
The Elvis tune (taken from O Sole Mio, of course) is the classic one, where he sings "Tomorrow....will be too late", and you know just what he's talking about, thanks to the minor iv. (Ooh baby, he's ready now....)
With Radiohead's No Surprises, the ivmin6 chord is the fly in the ointment, the flaw in the pretty tune that implies the darkness beneath.
In She Loves You, they sing "with a love like that" on the minor iv. Oh, I see, a I love like that... OK, I guess I should be glad...
Last edited by jongtr at Jul 28, 2016,
#19
enloartworks
fifth mode of melodic minor works really. (1,2,3,4,5,b6,b7) ... Mixolydian b6.
So, C Mix b6 works against C maj Fm. Andy Timmons uses this kind of progression, as complement to George Harrison.

I use this scale a lot ... love it. Here it is in a rock context (about 47 seconds in). https://soundcloud.com/jerry-kramskoy-1/split-down-the-middle-vocal
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Jul 28, 2016,